Is dragging windows a function of X or a window manager? I think there
could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
dragging. I can't think of situation where you need a window to be
partially visible, but that kind of situation is easy to run into when
you move or resize windows by dragging.

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Jarno Suni wrote:
> Is dragging windows a function of X or a window manager? I think there
> could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
> dragging. I can't think of situation where you need a window to be
> partially visible, but that kind of situation is easy to run into when
> you move or resize windows by dragging.

I'm not sure you are trying to say here, however I have found that dragging
does provide a problem for some users (eg accessibility users, users with
limited dexterity, and users of touchscreen devices). However, a drag facility
could be provided to replicate other alternative actions.

Here is a related page on the Accessibility Users' Wiki:

http://markhobley.yi.org:9088/drag

Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.

Jarno Suni wrote:

> Is dragging windows a function of X or a window manager? I think there

X just draws the windows, any window handling is done by the window
manager.


> could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
> dragging. I can't think of situation where you need a window to be
> partially visible,

I often have windows only partially visible, e.g. because I only need
a small part of the window (like if I'm waiting for something to
finish) or I regularly need to switch between a few windows on the
same virtual desktop using the mouse.

> but that kind of situation is easy to run into when you move or
> resize windows by dragging.

Some window managers support "tiled mode", i.e no overlapping windows,
like ion or awesome


Florian
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Mark Hobley staggered into the Black Sun and said:
> Jarno Suni wrote:
>> Is dragging windows a function of X or a window manager?

The WM allows you to move and resize windows. X just defines a way to
draw pixels on a Screen, a way for X clients to receive keyboard and
mouse events, and protocols for transmitting that info over local
sockets or TCP sockets or shared memory.

>> there could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than
>> dragging.

OK, go ahead and invent one.

>> I can't think of [a] situation where you need a window to be
>> partially visible

Wow. You've *never* run into a situation where you want overlapping
windows? That's pretty atypical. I want partially visible windows all
the time, usually because I'm doing something in an xterm or Firefox or
kmail window and waiting for something to happen in one of those 2
inactive windows. You know, you're composing a Usenet article in the
xterm, then you see in the partially-visible kmail window that 3 new
messages have showed up in the "local LUG" mail folder. Or you're
composing a message in kmail, and you see in the partially visible xterm
that the compile for kdelibs-3.5.9 has finally finished.

Basically, partially visible windows = more information available.

> I'm not sure you are trying to say here, however I have found that
> dragging does [present] a problem for some users (eg accessibility
> users, users with limited dexterity, and users of touchscreen
> devices).

Hm. If lack of dexterity prevents a user from dragging, how is that
user going to type?

> http://markhobley.yi.org:9088/drag

Dragging is useful enough that I think it'll be impossible to eliminate
it in the general case. I don't know what good alternatives to dragging
might be. I suppose an alternative mouse device that had a button which
locked down might be useful in some cases. (First click = button 1 press,
second click = button 1 release, etcetera.)

--
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My blog and resume: http://crow202.dyndns.org:8080/wordpress/
Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see

Jarno Suni writes:

> Is dragging windows a function of X or a window manager?

Window manager. There are window managers (typically for small-screen
devices) like matchbox that just put one big window up to cover the
whole screen.

> I think there
> could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
> dragging.

Like what?

> I can't think of situation where you need a window to be
> partially visible, but that kind of situation is easy to run into when
> you move or resize windows by dragging.

The question of whether windows should overlap (vs. tiling the screen)
was pretty lively in about 1980. The consensus was that the
flexibility of allowing overlap is a big win.

A situation where a partially visible window is a good thing? Any
time I want to be looking something up in a pdf while composing an
email comes to mind -- maybe you've got a screen big enough to show
all of both windows, but I sure don't.

Dances With Crows wrote:

> Hm. If lack of dexterity prevents a user from dragging, how is that
> user going to type?

I work with people who have specialized needs all the time, and I
know many people who can work the keyboard, but cannot use the mouse.

They have enough dexterity to be able to move their finger over the
keyboard to the right key before letting their hand drop.

A key only needs a single press for typing, but to move the mouse with
accuracy, and click in the right place without the mouse moving is a
problem for many people that I deal with.

A possible way to handle this is to be able to press a key that brings
up a prompt for the window size, or object coordinates, and allows the
user to make adjustments using the cursor keys, or by typing new dimensions
or coordinates, etc.

I wrote a window manager in 1984 that allowed window resizing using the
keyboard. It was written for the ZX spectrum computer, but it was later
rewritten in assembly language for the MSDOS platform. Unfortunately, the
project was abandoned. Competing developments became available, such as Ashton
Tate Frameworks, and Gem Desktop. The advantage of my engine was that it could
be utilized from a standard EXE file. Unfortunately a couple of years
later, Microsoft Windows could do this, and a lot of computer shops were
selling it. At the time there was no mention of crashes, viruses or the
blue screen of death. If I had known at the time what Microsoft was planning,
I would have kept up the development work on that engine.

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:08:11 +0000, Mark Hobley wrote:



> A possible way to handle this is to be able to press a key that brings
> up a prompt for the window size, or object coordinates, and allows the
> user to make adjustments using the cursor keys, or by typing new
> dimensions or coordinates, etc.
>

Hmmm... Maybe I'm missing something here, but....
ALT-F3 brings up a window menu which contains, among other items, a
rezise function that works with the keyboard ( arrow keys ).

My memory maynot be completely accurate, but I believe this is definded
as a standard for window management.






--
Let sleeping dogs lie.
-- Charles Dickens
----------------------
Mandriva Linux release 2008.1 (Official) for x86_64
2.6.24.5-server-1mnb AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5000+
----------------------

On 10 Jun 2008 15:58:49 GMT
Dances With Crows wrote:

> Wow. You've *never* run into a situation where you want overlapping
> windows? That's pretty atypical. I want partially visible windows all
> the time, usually because I'm doing something in an xterm or Firefox or
> kmail window and waiting for something to happen in one of those 2
> inactive windows. You know, you're composing a Usenet article in the
> xterm, then you see in the partially-visible kmail window that 3 new
> messages have showed up in the "local LUG" mail folder. Or you're
> composing a message in kmail, and you see in the partially visible xterm
> that the compile for kdelibs-3.5.9 has finally finished.

The applications you are waiting for could have different kind of means
to tell you when they are ready, or you could use another application to
tell you e.g. in a panel when the previous command quited. (As for mail
notifications, e.g. for Claws Mail there exist's a mail notification
plugin.)

> Basically, partially visible windows = more information available.

Maybe so, but application's UI could be wrapped in a scrollable window
(if it does not otherwise fit to the space reserved for it) and that
kind of windows could be tiled (if needed) on desktop. (BTW It is
annoying with a small display when some application have so big dialog
window that don't fit on display at once and that window is not
scrollable.)

--
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On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:39:15 +0200
Florian Diesch wrote:

> Some window managers support "tiled mode", i.e no overlapping windows,
> like ion or awesome

Thanks for those examples.

--
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On 10 Jun 2008 10:28:20 -0600
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> Jarno Suni writes:

> > I think there
> > could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
> > dragging.
>
> Like what?

I was thinking about some kind of tiling. You would choose a set of
windows that are visible in a view. Then choose the layout and move
windows' common borders to get wanted portion of display for each
window. (Well, dragging could be used here.) There would be a shortcut
to switch between active window's tiled view and full screen view, of
course. There could be several view's, but only one is visible at once.

> The question of whether windows should overlap (vs. tiling the screen)
> was pretty lively in about 1980. The consensus was that the
> flexibility of allowing overlap is a big win.

Interesting, I was not aware of that kind of consensus. Can you point
some kind of reference?

> A situation where a partially visible window is a good thing? Any
> time I want to be looking something up in a pdf while composing an
> email comes to mind -- maybe you've got a screen big enough to show
> all of both windows, but I sure don't.

You can resize your pdf viewer's window. Even if you don't see the
whole document at once, you can see the whole window at once.

--
Jarno Suni - http://iki.fi/8/
Ole hyvä ja käytä XHTML-yhteensopivaa WWW-selainta.
Please use a XHTML compliant web browser.

Jim Whitby staggered into the Black Sun and said:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:08:11 +0000, Mark Hobley wrote:
>> A possible way to handle this is to be able to press a key that
>> brings up a prompt for the window size, or object coordinates, and
>> allows the user to make adjustments using the cursor keys, or by
>> typing new dimensions or coordinates, etc.
> ALT-F3 brings up a window menu which contains, among other items, a
> resize function that works with the keyboard ( arrow keys ). My
> memory maynot be completely accurate, but I believe this is defined
> as a standard for window management.

kwin and metacity do this, at least. Also note that wmctrl works with
all EWMH/NetWM compliant WMs (all commonly used WMs, that is) and can be
controlled entirely with keypresses. However, doing something like

wmctrl -r $NAME -e 0,20,20,800,600

....might be too much typing for a reduced-dex user, and isn't as
interactive as the alt-F3 thing. However, wmctrl lets you move and
resize a window at the same time, which *might* be useful in some cases.

--
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-- Debbie Maizels
My blog and resume: http://crow202.dyndns.org:8080/wordpress/
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Jim Whitby wrote:

> Hmmm... Maybe I'm missing something here, but....
> ALT-F3 brings up a window menu which contains, among other items, a
> rezise function that works with the keyboard ( arrow keys ).

I just tried it with my Window Manager (jwm) and it did not work. Maybe
the keys are different on different Window Managers, or some Window Managers
do not provide this facility. I don't know.

It would be interesting to find out which Window Manager functionality
can be replicated via the keyboard on the various Window Managers.

According to various documentation that I have found: icewm, stumpwm,
and trswm all offer full keyboard replication, though I have not tested
this myself.

I have also found that aewm, evilwm and openbox are documented to
provide partial keyboard replication, though I don't know which functions are
and are not replicated.

Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.

Jarno Suni writes:

> On 10 Jun 2008 10:28:20 -0600
> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
> > Jarno Suni writes:
>
> > > I think there
> > > could be a better way to manage window positions and sizes than usual
> > > dragging.
> >
> > Like what?
>
> I was thinking about some kind of tiling. You would choose a set of
> windows that are visible in a view. Then choose the layout and move
> windows' common borders to get wanted portion of display for each
> window. (Well, dragging could be used here.) There would be a shortcut
> to switch between active window's tiled view and full screen view, of
> course. There could be several view's, but only one is visible at once.

That seems like you're working pretty hard to get exactly the same
effect as overlapping windows without having overlapping windows.
Given that you've now reached the point of using dragging to display
your partial window, what have you gained?

> > The question of whether windows should overlap (vs. tiling the screen)
> > was pretty lively in about 1980. The consensus was that the
> > flexibility of allowing overlap is a big win.
>
> Interesting, I was not aware of that kind of consensus. Can you point
> some kind of reference?

X, Macintosh, Microsoft Windows all come to mind (I don't have any
research cites). When I was a grad student in Seattle, and a friend
of mine had taken a job at Microsoft, he came visiting one day to show
us an early prototype of a new product called "Windows". This
prototype used tiling -- let me tell you, it was ugly.

> > A situation where a partially visible window is a good thing? Any
> > time I want to be looking something up in a pdf while composing an
> > email comes to mind -- maybe you've got a screen big enough to show
> > all of both windows, but I sure don't.
>
> You can resize your pdf viewer's window. Even if you don't see the
> whole document at once, you can see the whole window at once.

Why should I care whether I can see the whole window at once? I want
to see a portion of the information: why should I go scrolling around
inside a window instead of just moving the window, or raising and
lowering windows?

On 12 Jun 2008 16:41:06 -0600
Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> That seems like you're working pretty hard to get exactly the same
> effect as overlapping windows without having overlapping windows.
> Given that you've now reached the point of using dragging to display
> your partial window, what have you gained?

Hard compared to what? I have gained views that I can switch between and
modify. When windows for a view are selected, I can change their layout
easily: e.g. I can change portions of the windows in it by stretching
one and shrinking other simultaneously rather than resizing them
separately and additionally moving windows and lowering and raising
windows.

I admit that the subject I chose is a bit misleading: Dragging is not
bad itself, but I want to discuss, if the common stack of windows
metaphor is the best possible design philosophy for workstation
computer gui.

> Why should I care whether I can see the whole window at once? I want
> to see a portion of the information: why should I go scrolling around
> inside a window instead of just moving the window, or raising and
> lowering windows?

I think you don't have to care, if you find moving the window,
raising and lowering windows in the usual way convenient way to manage
windows. I think it would be easier to change the part of the
information visible when you can isolate windows to their reserved
territory so that it doesn't affect to the visibility of other windows.
Scolling a window is not the only way I can think of to change visible
part inside the windows's territory.

What do you gain by tinkering with the windows and having a window
partially or wholly under other windows or outside desktop compared to
the model I featured? I can tell you having a window partially outside
desktop does not make it easier to use.

--
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Ole hyvä ja käytä XHTML-yhteensopivaa WWW-selainta.
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Jarno Suni writes:

> On 12 Jun 2008 16:41:06 -0600
> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> That seems like you're working pretty hard to get exactly the same
>> effect as overlapping windows without having overlapping windows.
>> Given that you've now reached the point of using dragging to display
>> your partial window, what have you gained?
>
> Hard compared to what? I have gained views that I can switch between and
> modify. When windows for a view are selected, I can change their layout
> easily: e.g. I can change portions of the windows in it by stretching
> one and shrinking other simultaneously rather than resizing them
> separately and additionally moving windows and lowering and raising
> windows.

Hard compared to not going to all that work, since I can't see how the
metaphor you've come up with provides any advantages.

> I admit that the subject I chose is a bit misleading: Dragging is not
> bad itself, but I want to discuss, if the common stack of windows
> metaphor is the best possible design philosophy for workstation
> computer gui.
>
>> Why should I care whether I can see the whole window at once? I want
>> to see a portion of the information: why should I go scrolling around
>> inside a window instead of just moving the window, or raising and
>> lowering windows?
>
> I think you don't have to care, if you find moving the window,
> raising and lowering windows in the usual way convenient way to manage
> windows. I think it would be easier to change the part of the
> information visible when you can isolate windows to their reserved
> territory so that it doesn't affect to the visibility of other windows.
> Scolling a window is not the only way I can think of to change visible
> part inside the windows's territory.
>
> What do you gain by tinkering with the windows and having a window
> partially or wholly under other windows or outside desktop compared to
> the model I featured? I can tell you having a window partially outside
> desktop does not make it easier to use.

And I can tell you I find it useful, and I do it frequently.

Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>
>> What do you gain by tinkering with the windows and having a window
>> partially or wholly under other windows or outside desktop compared to
>> the model I featured? I can tell you having a window partially outside
>> desktop does not make it easier to use.
>
> And I can tell you I find it useful, and I do it frequently.

Sometimes an application opens a window that is about twelve times the
width of the desktop, and it is really annoying to have to try and drag
the right hand edge across several screens.

I have encountered another problem with applications that produce windows that
are greater in height than the desktop. There is no way to access the bottom
of the window in most window managers, because to drag the window upwards, the
mouse needs to be on the title bar, but it is not possible to drag the
titlebar upwards and off the screen in order to see the bottom of the
window. And even if it was, how would I be able to drag them back again,
because the titlebar is now gone, and I need this to drag.

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:08:09 GMT
markhobley@hotpop.donottypethisbit.com (Mark Hobley) wrote:

> Sometimes an application opens a window that is about twelve times the
> width of the desktop, and it is really annoying to have to try and drag
> the right hand edge across several screens.

Wow. Are they some giant panorama images zoomed 100%?

> I have encountered another problem with applications that produce windowsthat
> are greater in height than the desktop.

I have encountered the problem with one application, namely Xfburn;
the feature was treated as bug and later fixed:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...urn/+bug/46082

--
Jarno Suni - http://iki.fi/8/
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Jarno Suni wrote:

> Wow. Are they some giant panorama images zoomed 100%?

I think it was output from a file manager, xdiskusage or some
diagnostic tool. I can't remember exactly, but it does happen.

Really, I never want a window bigger than my display area. I have a
minor problem with applications in general. They do not take into account the
window decorations, such as the border size, or the presence of a
taskbar or menubar. This means that the right hand edge of my windows
are missing a few pixels, and the cross to close the window is only
half on the screen. Also some applications have a statusbar that appears
underneath my menubar, and again I have a problem with not being able to
drag the window upwards to see the contents, because of the titlebar not
being moveable beyond the screen limit.

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:08:10 GMT
markhobley@hotpop.donottypethisbit.com (Mark Hobley) wrote:

> Really, I never want a window bigger than my display area. I have a
> minor problem with applications in general.

Which desktop environment you are using? Do you have many screens
(xrandr or xinerama)?

--
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Jarno Suni wrote:
> Which desktop environment you are using? Do you have many screens
> (xrandr or xinerama)?

It changes from time to time. I am still evaluating window managers at
the moment. At the moment I am using jwm, but I think icewm also had
similar problems.

I don't at this time know whether problems with window sizes are related
to the window manager, the system configuration, within the application
programs themselves, or within runtime libraries or language interpreter
tools.

Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Hobley,
393 Quinton Road West,
Quinton, BIRMINGHAM.
B32 1QE.