video out of range - X

This is a discussion on video out of range - X ; On a new computer I just built, I tried installing Fedora 8 then later Ubuntu 6.06. In the case of Fedora, the installer appeared to be running in a safe video mode. Upon reboot the problem happened. In the case ...

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Thread: video out of range

  1. video out of range

    On a new computer I just built, I tried installing Fedora 8 then later
    Ubuntu 6.06. In the case of Fedora, the installer appeared to be running
    in a safe video mode. Upon reboot the problem happened. In the case of
    Ubuntu, the problem happened with running the system from the CD itself.

    Specifically, the video went dead as soon as X started, and the monitor
    itself popped up a warning saying "Digital Out of Range 30.3 kHz 28 Hz"
    in the case of Fedora and "Digital Out of Range 30.3 kHz 29 Hz" in the
    case of Ubuntu. While only different in the vertical frequency, it fact
    that they are the same in the horizontal is suspicious. Were it just one
    of these systems, I'd figure it was wrong and detected the video incorrectly.
    But both did about the same thing.

    I escaped to text console mode and looked at /etc/X11/xorg.conf but could
    not find anything configured to run the video at that frequency. Where
    is this actually specified? Does it default to that because of the video
    card? Or because of the monitor? Or because of information obtained from
    the monitor?

    The video card is Matrox G550 PCIe with dual DVI. A DVI-to-DVI cable was
    used to plug in an LG model 1933 LCD monitor (1280x1024 native). I do not
    right now have a cable to test this in analog mode.

    Is that video frequency one that is expected to work on LCD displays? If
    not, where did it come from?

    Really, I'd prefer to have an LCD display that worked down to 23.976 Hz to
    be able to support HD video in 1000/1001 derated 24 fps, since some video
    can be in that format. Yet, I already know this monitor cuts off at 50 Hz
    and won't do any video below that frame rate. Are there monitors that can
    do down to 23.976 Hz or 24 Hz, especially in 1280x1024?

    Please use the described email address in my sig for any private replies.
    Otherwise I'll be looking in the newsgroup.

    --
    |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
    | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
    | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-12-31-0114@ipal.net |
    |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

  2. Re: video out of range

    phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    > Specifically, the video went dead as soon as X started, and the
    > monitor itself popped up a warning saying "Digital Out of Range 30.3
    > kHz 28 Hz"


    Too low. Vsync cutoff is usually around 45-50 Hz. (This is one reason
    why they invented "Doublescan" for low-resolution Modes like 400x300.)

    > I escaped to text console mode and looked at /etc/X11/xorg.conf but
    > could not find anything configured to run the video at that frequency.
    > Where is this actually specified?


    Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    HorizSync 30-95 # 30-95 KHz
    VertRefresh 55-160 # 55-160 Hz
    Identifier "Monitor[0]"
    Option "DPMS"
    EndSection

    > Does it default to that because of the video card? Or because of the
    > monitor? Or because of information obtained from the monitor?


    Both distros are *probably* attempting to read DDC info from the
    monitor, not getting any info, and putting in some default settings
    which fail miserably. Modify your xorg.conf according to the snippet
    above--the Hsync and Vsync ranges given are just fine for most LCDs that
    aren't insanely huge. NOTE: Some distros attempt to auto-detect
    hardware on every boot and may replace your custom settings with the
    automatic settings which fail. If that happens, kick the distro to the
    curb and get a distro that doesn't suck.

    > The video card is Matrox G550 PCIe


    Which X module are you using? Does that module's man page say anything
    about special considerations with DVI?

    > LG model 1933 LCD monitor (1280x1024 native). I do not have a cable
    > to test this in analog mode.


    Try the sync settings above and make sure that you have "1280x1024" in
    the Modes line for the monitor.

    > Really, I'd prefer to have an LCD display that worked down to 23.976
    > Hz to be able to support HD video in 1000/1001 derated 24 fps


    Hsync Hz != FPS. It's mplayer/xine's job to feed the video card at an
    appropriate rate, and X shouldn't interfere.

    > Please use the described email address in my sig for any private
    > replies. Otherwise I'll be looking in the newsgroup.


    "Post Here, Read Here" has been the rule since the Great Renaming.

    --
    You have me mixed up with more creative ways of being stupid.
    --MegaHAL, trained on random gibberish
    Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see

  3. Re: video out of range

    On 31 Dec 2007 14:55:23 GMT Dances With Crows wrote:
    | phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    |> Specifically, the video went dead as soon as X started, and the
    |> monitor itself popped up a warning saying "Digital Out of Range 30.3
    |> kHz 28 Hz"
    |
    | Too low. Vsync cutoff is usually around 45-50 Hz. (This is one reason
    | why they invented "Doublescan" for low-resolution Modes like 400x300.)

    "Too low" depends on context. It is certainly too low for a reasonable
    display on a CRT since it would flicker big time. It is too low for most
    CRT circuitry, anyway, due to the high voltage L/C components which tend
    to have limited range. It happens to be too low for my LCD display.

    But it is not too low in principle for LCD. It is also not too low for
    the kind of circuitry that would be practical and reasonable to build an
    analog to digital sampler, as an LCD would need to have for analog input.

    And it is not as low as film/cine syncronized video at 24 fps.

    Doublescan could certainly make this work. But it would not be needed in
    an LCD display. Or at least should not be needed in a reasonable one.


    |> I escaped to text console mode and looked at /etc/X11/xorg.conf but
    |> could not find anything configured to run the video at that frequency.
    |> Where is this actually specified?
    |
    | Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    | HorizSync 30-95 # 30-95 KHz
    | VertRefresh 55-160 # 55-160 Hz
    | Identifier "Monitor[0]"
    | Option "DPMS"
    | EndSection

    The copy of xorg.conf I had did not specify the vertical refresh rate
    at all. Are you saying that by changing it to look like the above, it
    would quit using 28 Hz and go up to at least 55 Hz? I have found my
    monitor will handle down to 50 Hz, so I could use that.


    |> Does it default to that because of the video card? Or because of the
    |> monitor? Or because of information obtained from the monitor?
    |
    | Both distros are *probably* attempting to read DDC info from the
    | monitor, not getting any info, and putting in some default settings
    | which fail miserably. Modify your xorg.conf according to the snippet
    | above--the Hsync and Vsync ranges given are just fine for most LCDs that
    | aren't insanely huge. NOTE: Some distros attempt to auto-detect
    | hardware on every boot and may replace your custom settings with the
    | automatic settings which fail. If that happens, kick the distro to the
    | curb and get a distro that doesn't suck.

    Using these distros are actually just for testing. I'll be using Slackware
    after I have all the drivers and parameters figured out, and later I will
    be migrating to Gentoo (built under Slackware into a chroot directory).


    |> The video card is Matrox G550 PCIe
    |
    | Which X module are you using? Does that module's man page say anything
    | about special considerations with DVI?

    I don't know. It's whatever the distro chooses.

    I finally got a cable to connect in analog, through the provided DVI-I to
    HD15 adaptor provided with the card. Same problem.

    I also chose the "save video" boot selection in Ubuntu. With that, it
    went into the proper 1280x1024 video mode (but I was expecting it to go
    into standard VGA 640x480) at about 67 Hz.


    |> LG model 1933 LCD monitor (1280x1024 native). I do not have a cable
    |> to test this in analog mode.
    |
    | Try the sync settings above and make sure that you have "1280x1024" in
    | the Modes line for the monitor.

    OK


    |> Really, I'd prefer to have an LCD display that worked down to 23.976
    |> Hz to be able to support HD video in 1000/1001 derated 24 fps
    |
    | Hsync Hz != FPS. It's mplayer/xine's job to feed the video card at an
    | appropriate rate, and X shouldn't interfere.

    But Vsync Hz == FPS (in progressive video mode)

    I'm not using mplayer/xine. I agree that if something gains access to the
    whole screen, it should be able to operate the video mode it needs. But
    that isn't what I am doing.

    What I am saying is that the _monitor/display_ _should_ be able to handle
    these video rates all the way down to 23.976 Hz/fps because there is video
    in that format at a few different line sizes (480, 576, 720, and 1080).
    A monitor/display that can display 1080p24 video would have handled my
    28 Hz video.

    Anyone know of such a monitor that can handle video with vertical between
    23.976 Hz and 120 Hz (inclusive)?


    |> Please use the described email address in my sig for any private
    |> replies. Otherwise I'll be looking in the newsgroup.
    |
    | "Post Here, Read Here" has been the rule since the Great Renaming.

    I'll be reading both places. But sometimes people have replies that are
    not appropriate for the group (such as software attachments, though I
    don't need any of that, AFAIK).

    --
    |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
    | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
    | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-01-1045@ipal.net |
    |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

  4. Re: video out of range

    phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    > Dances With Crows wrote:
    >> phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    >>> Specifically, the video went dead as soon as X started, and the
    >>> monitor itself popped up a warning saying "Digital Out of Range 30.3
    >>> kHz 28 Hz"

    >> Too low. Vsync cutoff is usually around 45-50 Hz.

    > "Too low" depends on context. It is certainly too low for a
    > reasonable display on a CRT since it would flicker big time. But it
    > is not too low in principle for LCD.


    LCDs are built to emulate CRTs in many ways (big surprise, eh?). Many
    LCDs display somewhere near 60 Hz because of the VESA standards.

    >> Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    >> HorizSync 30-95 # 30-95 KHz
    >> VertRefresh 55-160 # 55-160 Hz

    > The copy of xorg.conf I had did not specify the vertical refresh rate
    > at all. Are you saying that by changing it to look like the above, it
    > would quit using 28 Hz and go up to at least 55 Hz?


    Yes. X is paranoid about video frequencies and doesn't always
    autodetect things properly.

    >> Both distros are *probably* attempting to read DDC info from the
    >> monitor, not getting any info, and putting in some default settings
    >> which fail miserably. Modify your xorg.conf according to the snippet

    > Using these distros are actually just for testing. I'll be using
    > Slackware after I have all the drivers and parameters figured out, and
    > later I will be migrating to Gentoo (built under Slackware into a
    > chroot directory).


    You could save time and hassle by just starting with Gentoo if that's
    what you want to use in the long run. Follow along with the Install
    Handbook (print it out if you don't have a second machine to read it on)
    and it's pretty easy for a reasonably experienced user.

    >>> The video card is Matrox G550 PCIe

    >> Which X module are you using?

    > I don't know. It's whatever the distro chooses.


    This can be a bad idea. Sometimes distros just use VESA as that always
    works. The problem with that is you get no 3D, no XV, and you're stuck
    at 60 Hz (bad on a CRT).

    >>> Really, I'd prefer to have an LCD display that worked down to 23.976
    >>> Hz to be able to support HD video in 1000/1001 derated 24 fps

    >> Hsync Hz != FPS. It's mplayer/xine's job to feed the video card at
    >> an appropriate rate, and X shouldn't interfere.

    > But Vsync Hz == FPS (in progressive video mode) I'm not using
    > mplayer/xine.


    So what are you using? If your video player is flickering or tearing
    noticably at *any* Vsync rate, you have a problem that is totally
    orthogonal to the problem you're trying to solve.

    > What I am saying is that the _monitor/display_ _should_ be able to
    > handle these video rates all the way down to 23.976 Hz/fps


    The monitor might, but X won't without serious hacking. That Vsync rate
    is much too low for normal computer use. I've played many, many DVDs
    (video at 24 or 30 fps) via my computer and a similar LCD, and seen no
    problems at all despite the LCD acting like it's running at 60 Hz.

    >> "Post Here, Read Here" has been the rule since the Great Renaming.

    > I'll be reading both places. But sometimes people have replies that
    > are not appropriate for the group (such as software attachments


    In general, asking for mailed replies in a Usenet post is considered
    gauche. Ah well, HTH,

    --
    Some people are alive only because it is traditional to keep
    torturing the poor guy about being lost in the machine room with an
    IBM water buffalo. --MegaHAL, trained on ASR
    Matt G|There is no Darkness in Eternity/But only Light too dim for us to see

  5. Re: video out of range

    On 1 Jan 2008 19:25:31 GMT Dances With Crows wrote:
    | phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    |> Dances With Crows wrote:
    |>> phil-news-nospam@ipal.net staggered into the Black Sun and said:
    |>>> Specifically, the video went dead as soon as X started, and the
    |>>> monitor itself popped up a warning saying "Digital Out of Range 30.3
    |>>> kHz 28 Hz"
    |>> Too low. Vsync cutoff is usually around 45-50 Hz.
    |> "Too low" depends on context. It is certainly too low for a
    |> reasonable display on a CRT since it would flicker big time. But it
    |> is not too low in principle for LCD.
    |
    | LCDs are built to emulate CRTs in many ways (big surprise, eh?). Many
    | LCDs display somewhere near 60 Hz because of the VESA standards.

    Modern CRTs have a fairly wide range. That adds to the cost, but it
    made them work a lot better. They would also work well down to where
    people would be sick of the flicker, and usually high enough that
    almost no one could see the flicker.

    The flicker comes from the fact that after the phospor on the screen is
    hit with the electron beam and lights up, it subsequently fades out.
    Some high resolution CRT screens of the past (for example Ann Arbor
    Ambassador brand/model of CRT based serial terminal) would scan at an
    ungodly slow rate and compensate with a slow decay phosphor. It worked
    to make it not flicker, but when the screen content changed, there was
    a latent image of the old data for a second or so.

    LCDs are a different kind of technology. They process the video coming
    in and update a matrix of LCD cells. The update takes place quite fast
    (although it make take some time for the transition to complete though
    it is in the small milliseconds now days). Unlike the CRT, it is not
    transitioning to black before coming back on at a scan rate. What it
    is doing is transitioning between an old value and a new value. So even
    at a slow scan rate, with slow video, it won't be a significant source
    of flicker (unless the video content itself is actually trying to do that,
    or power line hum gets unto the analog side).

    An LCD can support incoming video at 60 Hz just fine to be a decent LCD.
    One that didn't would be flying back into the RMA department en masse.

    If the video coming in is at another rate, it can do that as well. But
    that only works if the firmware allows it. If the firmware detects the
    frame rate as being "too low" it cuts off the display and gives a warning.
    That might be useful for someone setting up a system configuration where
    they need to make sure their video is within specs for a CRT alternative.
    But this should at least be disableable (if not off by default) so that
    video at slower frame rates like 24 fps/Hz can be supported (even though
    a CRT cannot directly do that without a frame rate tripler).


    |>> Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    |>> HorizSync 30-95 # 30-95 KHz
    |>> VertRefresh 55-160 # 55-160 Hz
    |> The copy of xorg.conf I had did not specify the vertical refresh rate
    |> at all. Are you saying that by changing it to look like the above, it
    |> would quit using 28 Hz and go up to at least 55 Hz?
    |
    | Yes. X is paranoid about video frequencies and doesn't always
    | autodetect things properly.

    It should at least obey the configuration supplied, if one is supplied.
    In the case I posted about, I didn't try to change that. Instead, what
    I wanted to know is where it set it. Maybe it didn't set it and it is
    just using a default when nothing particular is set. As long as it will
    obey what is set once something is set, that is fine. but a default of
    28 Hz ... that's just _wrong_ at least as long as we have LCDs that have
    lame firmware that tries to protect us from underscanning CRTs.

    But I did run into a case on a machine at work where Fedora 7 was installed
    and it set the wrong mode (it used 1440x900 when the display native was
    1400x1050) and further did not even offer the correct mode in the list of
    available modes to switch to. Turns out the place the configuration was
    set was inside window manager (apparently so different login users could
    have different resolutions/modes).


    |>> Both distros are *probably* attempting to read DDC info from the
    |>> monitor, not getting any info, and putting in some default settings
    |>> which fail miserably. Modify your xorg.conf according to the snippet
    |> Using these distros are actually just for testing. I'll be using
    |> Slackware after I have all the drivers and parameters figured out, and
    |> later I will be migrating to Gentoo (built under Slackware into a
    |> chroot directory).
    |
    | You could save time and hassle by just starting with Gentoo if that's
    | what you want to use in the long run. Follow along with the Install
    | Handbook (print it out if you don't have a second machine to read it on)
    | and it's pretty easy for a reasonably experienced user.

    I'm already into the practice of pre-building the entire system as a
    "chroot" file tree on another machine. I do that now with Slackware.
    I "install" the whole thing entirely in a tree. Then I run a series
    of scripts to modify it to my preferences (there's a lot of modification
    going on, including a complete replacement of all the rc/init scripts,
    and lots of my own custom configuration). Then I "really" install it
    on the target machine's hard drive via another script that wipes the
    drive, partitions it, formats the partitions, and populates them.

    Among the differences I now have in my system is the / mount point is
    actually tmpfs. Then various partitions are mounted onto directories
    there. Each filesystem actually is populated as if it were relative
    to the / point, but then the "bind" mount option is used to get the
    right directory there.

    root@huya:/root 1# df -a
    Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
    tmpfs[root] 1024 948 76 93% /
    proc 0 0 0 - /proc
    sysfs 0 0 0 - /sys
    tmpfs[dev] 1024 44 980 5% /dev
    tmpfs[etc] 16384 8264 8120 51% /etc
    tmpfs[shm] 163840 0 163840 0% /dev/shm
    devpts 0 0 0 - /dev/pts
    /dev/sda1 252368 188896 63472 75% /admin
    /dev/sda9:bin 6633364 6114632 518732 93% /bin
    /dev/sda1:boot 252368 188896 63472 75% /boot
    /dev/sda4:home 963881104 5967140 957913964 1% /home
    /dev/sda9:lib 6633364 6114632 518732 93% /lib
    /dev/sda9pt 6633364 6114632 518732 93% /opt
    /dev/sda8pt/local 512968 61824 451144 13% /opt/local
    /dev/sda4ub 963881104 5967140 957913964 1% /pub
    /dev/sda5:root 514028 76748 437280 15% /root
    /dev/sda9:sbin 6633364 6114632 518732 93% /sbin
    /dev/sda6:tmp 2056188 75168 1981020 4% /tmp
    /dev/sda9:usr 6633364 6114632 518732 93% /usr
    /dev/sda8:usr/local 512968 61824 451144 13% /usr/local
    /dev/sda5:var 514028 76748 437280 15% /var
    /dev/sda7:var/log 514028 62948 451080 13% /var/log
    /dev/sda6:var/tmp 2056188 75168 1981020 4% /var/tmp
    /dev/sda4:web 963881104 5967140 957913964 1% /web
    tmpfs[empty] 4 0 4 0% /var/empty
    tmpfs[lock] 4155992 0 4155992 0% /var/lock
    tmpfs[run] 4155992 100 4155892 1% /var/run
    root@huya:/root 2#

    Note that /bin and /lib and /opt and /sbin and /usr (but not /usr/local)
    are on the same filesystem (/dev/sda9). And this is done without any
    symlinks (which have occaisional problems that this method has avoided).

    root@huya:/root 2# ls -Alv /
    total 34
    drwxr-xr-x 21 root root 4096 2006-10-29 19:59 admin
    drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2003-04-02 20:21 bin
    drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 2008-01-03 00:25 boot
    drwxr-xr-x 17 root root 53000 2008-01-03 00:37 dev
    drwxr-xr-x 65 root root 4660 2008-01-03 00:42 etc
    drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 120 2008-01-02 21:47 home
    drwxr-xr-x 6 root root 4096 2007-06-12 17:07 lib
    drwxr-xr-x 16 root root 480 2008-01-03 00:37 media
    drwxr-xr-x 29 root root 580 2008-01-03 00:37 mnt
    drwxr-xr-x 10 root root 4096 2008-01-01 14:28 opt
    dr-xr-xr-x 131 root root 0 2008-01-03 00:37 proc
    drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2008-01-02 21:47 pub
    drwxr-xr-x 19 root root 1032 2008-01-02 04:47 root
    drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 8192 2008-01-01 14:28 sbin
    drwxr-xr-x 10 root root 0 2008-01-03 00:37 sys
    drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 136 2008-01-03 00:46 tmp
    drwxr-xr-x 19 root root 4096 2008-01-01 14:28 usr
    drwxr-xr-x 23 root root 672 2008-01-01 14:28 var
    drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 48 2008-01-02 21:47 web
    root@huya:/root 3#

    Long story short, I have far too much going on to just do a direct build
    or install the "usual" way for any distro. That and the existing machines
    are just too slow and small for some heavy duty building from source that
    would happen with Gentoo. So this new machine (shown above is the first
    of their kind) will run Slackware for now and get the Gentoo building
    started. A latter machine will literally run the first Gentoo.


    |>>> The video card is Matrox G550 PCIe
    |>> Which X module are you using?
    |> I don't know. It's whatever the distro chooses.
    |
    | This can be a bad idea. Sometimes distros just use VESA as that always
    | works. The problem with that is you get no 3D, no XV, and you're stuck
    | at 60 Hz (bad on a CRT).

    VESA should be depricated. I'd urge use of pure modeline configuration.
    But some video cards cannot handle "just any" modeline. Fortunately,
    the Matrox video cards up to at least the G550 series can. So I can
    tweak their exact number of lines, columns, and clock rate, to get just
    what I want out of it.

    In theory, a video player program grabbing the whole screen should be
    able to set its own mode preference to match the video (or some multiple
    of that incase it is slow video like 24 fps driving a CRT).


    |>>> Really, I'd prefer to have an LCD display that worked down to 23.976
    |>>> Hz to be able to support HD video in 1000/1001 derated 24 fps
    |>> Hsync Hz != FPS. It's mplayer/xine's job to feed the video card at
    |>> an appropriate rate, and X shouldn't interfere.
    |> But Vsync Hz == FPS (in progressive video mode) I'm not using
    |> mplayer/xine.
    |
    | So what are you using? If your video player is flickering or tearing
    | noticably at *any* Vsync rate, you have a problem that is totally
    | orthogonal to the problem you're trying to solve.

    I haven't even started to run a video player on this, yet.


    |> What I am saying is that the _monitor/display_ _should_ be able to
    |> handle these video rates all the way down to 23.976 Hz/fps
    |
    | The monitor might, but X won't without serious hacking. That Vsync rate
    | is much too low for normal computer use. I've played many, many DVDs
    | (video at 24 or 30 fps) via my computer and a similar LCD, and seen no
    | problems at all despite the LCD acting like it's running at 60 Hz.

    Your player may be upscanning the video to 60 Hz (bad) or 72 Hz (fine).
    But that's more work than the player needs to be doing, or forcing the
    video card to do ... given that properly programmed LCDs can do 24 Hz
    directly. Of course, since most seem to not be properly programmed,
    the video player is doing what it needs to do for most cases. But it
    should at least have an option to output the video directly in its
    original recorded mode, given a video card than can do it.

    |>> Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    |>> HorizSync 30-95 # 30-95 KHz
    |>> VertRefresh 55-160 # 55-160 Hz

    So why not change the monitor settings in the xorg.conf file to:

    Section "Monitor" # in xorg.conf
    HorizSync 15-95 # 15-95 KHz
    VertRefresh 20-160 # 20-160 Hz

    Why would Xorg then not obey that range of values as configured for the
    monitor? Why would 24 Hz vertical frame rate be out of range?

    I have old Matrox video cards that work very well for text mode work.
    But these older cards are limited to a clock rate about 65.2 MHz. Above
    that, the font rendering starts to break down and glitches get all over
    the screen. But it's also a tight balance because that seems to be the
    LOWER limit on the analog to digital sampler clock rate in the LCD I
    have. I could run the video card a lot slower if the monitor would run
    a sampler clock at a lower frequency, and support a lower frame rate,
    which is not at all hard to do (might need 1 or 2 more bits in the clock
    divider to get 2x or 4x lower in frequency).


    |>> "Post Here, Read Here" has been the rule since the Great Renaming.
    |> I'll be reading both places. But sometimes people have replies that
    |> are not appropriate for the group (such as software attachments
    |
    | In general, asking for mailed replies in a Usenet post is considered
    | gauche. Ah well, HTH,

    I wasn't asking for them. Sorry, maybe it was worded poorly. I was trying
    to say that those who want to email ... for whatever reason, but the expected
    ones would be for something not appropriate for the group ... could do so
    via the described hacked email address (see lower left of sig). I tried to
    be sure it was clear that I would be reading the group for posted followups.

    Some posts in some groups end up making 2-party threads that run forever.
    Those need to go to email instead, even if they aren't a flame fest.

    --
    |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
    | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
    | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-02-1850@ipal.net |
    |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

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