Palm goes Windows Mobile - Windows CE

This is a discussion on Palm goes Windows Mobile - Windows CE ; Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:13:04 -0000 received comm from Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc: : expensive, and they are all heavier than the netBook/S7. I have a spares More expensive probably (and functionallity, power), but some ...

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Thread: Palm goes Windows Mobile

  1. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:13:04 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : expensive, and they are all heavier than the netBook/S7. I have a spares

    More expensive probably (and functionallity, power), but some of the really
    small PC isn't that much heavier. The NetBook 0.3543 kg and OQO 0.3991 kg.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  2. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:13:04 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : Symbian (I have a P910) is neither fish nor fowl: too big for a phone, too
    : small for a proper PDA. If the Nokia Communicator concept had chosen the

    The problem I have with the P900 range is that even if I prefer a smaller QWERTY
    keyboard (like Psion S3/a/Sienna, Treo, RIM, etc) to get a more portable device
    I think that the P900 type of phones has *way* too small keys (to the point that
    they are almost unusable).

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  3. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    In article <4i03k1lt9jenjr5c8dukhlvda4vt82h1fd@4ax.com>,
    Martin T wrote:

    > : thumb keyboards not worth the effort, and I know I'm not going to carry
    > : a separate keyboard, so I can't see myself going for any current PDA.
    > : My last hope now is that when Apple releases its Intel notebooks in a
    > [ snip ]
    > : However I'm not interested in running Windows again.
    >
    > Why wait for Apple???
    >
    > It still won't have any Psion or "big palmtop" advantages (low battery,
    > instant
    > on, EPOC, PIM applications, backwards software compatibility, etc). You just
    > get
    > the negatives with poorer hardware support and less software to run.


    Why Apple? Given the iBook gets better than 4 hours battery life with a
    power hogging G4 CPU, I would think a Yonah based Apple should be up
    around the 7 hour mark. That is better than my NetBook can manage these
    days (although nowhere near my Psion 5). The Apple already has an
    instant on feature that is pretty close to Psion quality. I've been
    using that instant on for a year and a half now, and it is very stable.
    Plus I could live with a 7 hour battery life, given you can swap
    batteries on a Mac while the thing is sleeping (as long as you don't
    take more than about 30 seconds).

    The big advantage of EPOC was long term stability, and light weight
    operation. I'm getting uptimes of several months with OS X. Every now
    and then some OS upgrade wants a reboot, so I haven't tried for really
    long uptimes, like the several years I was used to with Solaris on Sun.

    PIM applications are a problem. Agenda is still better in some ways
    than iCal, but the gap is closing. Plus iCal does several things Agenda
    can't do. Since my time frame is over a year hence, I think it will be
    closer to a draw by then.

    Backwards software compatibility with Epoc is a problem. I haven't
    found a replacement for Malcolm Bryant's abp, for banking. But I can
    fake it with the US version of Quicken, which came with my Mac, because
    I don't need it to handle Australian VAT style taxes. I'd like a GPS
    moving map program, but since the Psion ones didn't have Australian maps
    anyhow, that isn't critical (there are a few things that will fudge it
    with your own maps, but Windows is stronger in that area).

    My Apple came with a bunch of programs, many of which quickly became
    favourites. If you know enough, you could find equivalents for Windows,
    but then they lack the integration with each other. I mostly haven't
    found lack of programs too much of a problem. Finding time to use them
    all, now that is a problem.

    > If you for some reasons absolutely don't want Windows (I like it)


    I tried an IBM laptop with Win XP Home before I tried the Mac. XP drove
    me insane, to the point where I was ready to throw the thing out. It is
    now in the hands of someone else, running BSD.

    > you can run Linux or FreeBSD (which is the core of OS X).


    I was advised by several Linux experts that Linux wasn't ready for
    desktop operation at the ease of use levels I wanted. Given they knew a
    lot more than me, I took their advice (and have been pleased with the
    results).

    >Apple makes nice designs, but I
    > don't think they will ever make as small and portable machines as the
    > revolutionary OQO notebook, the cool Sony Vaio U50, the super small Vulcan
    > FlipStart, etc.
    >
    > http://www.oqo.com/
    > http://www.dynamism.com/u50/
    > http://minipc.vulcan.com/


    These models are indeed small. However unlike Psion, I don't think any
    of these three have thought through their design. The OQO has a thumb
    keyboard, which I had already rejected for a PDA. So does the Vulcan.
    The Sony doesn't have a keyboard at all, except as an external one,
    which again I had already rejected in PDAs. Plus unless Windows has
    been modified, I suspect the display will be unreadable by anyone with
    older eyes. If any of these models have the display magnify feature
    like Psion did, I'd love to know about it.

    > If I wanted something bigger *I* wouldn't actually want any Psion or Windows
    > CE
    > device, but a small Tablet PC. I really love that form factor (!), and it
    > would
    > still allow be not to be limited in any software or hardware selection
    > (almost)!


    I need a keyboard. I love the Psion touch screen, but by itself it
    isn't enough. I use the keyboard way too much to go with handwriting
    recognition (which the Apple has anyway, thanks to the Newton stuff
    ported to it). That was why the Palm and Windows CE models didn't seem
    worthwhile as a Psion replacement.

    --
    http://www.ericlindsay.com

  4. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    BC wrote:

    " I like Firefox, but that's not really going after
    Microsoft's core business like an updated Communicator/
    server product would have. "

    ---


    The reason Firefox is so popular is that is smaller and less clumsy
    compared to the "Communicator suite". Mozilla is still available as a
    "Communicator suite" but is less popular than the standalone Firefox
    and Thunderbird.

    I don't think you win over Microsoft with yet more corporate warfare
    and yet more bloated products which don't benefit the user. The way
    forward, in my opinion, is to continue to implement, improve and use
    open standards like IMAP (mail) and SyncML (calendar synchronisation).

    Erik Sandblom


  5. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Martin T?rnsten wrote:

    " This was a mistake as the
    technology made the PC based notebooks smaller, thinner, lighter and
    consume
    less power. Customers clearly preferred light full desktop Windows
    machines over
    Symbian and Windows CE/HPC based notebooks. "

    -----


    But they still don't have long enough battery time -- a day should be
    the minumum. And they break when you drop them, which is a shame for a
    device intended to be carried.

    I think the reason people bought laptops was that they were afraid of
    using anything that was not MS Windows and MS Office, and they
    overestimated the difficulty and inconvenience of using anything else.
    The very sad part about that, is that in so doing, they bought machines
    that break when you drop them, and run out of gas within a few hours.
    In short, they fail when used as intended.

    Editing a desktop PC document on a PDA will always be a compromise, but
    that's not because PDAs are worse, it's because 100% compatibility
    between programs and even program versions will never be achieved. Once
    you accept that, you can start enjoying the benefits of using a device
    appropriate for the situation.

    Let me compare to cars -- many people think cars and airplanes are the
    only way to get around. Such people might feel that a small car would
    be best for getting around in a big crowded city. That's the laptop
    mentality -- basically using an inferior car. I submit that getting
    around in a big crowded city is best done by using public transport,
    walking and biking. That's the PDA mentality -- leaving the car idea
    entirely. By accepting the drawbacks you can enjoy the benefits.

    Erik Sandblom


  6. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    eriksandblom@yahoo.co.uk wrote in news:1128631584.674146.146300
    @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

    snip (for brevity - no offence meant!)
    >
    > Erik Sandblom
    >
    >


    Hear hear Erik, I agree with every word you say.

    The challenge for the PDA maker is to minimise the difficulties, not come
    up with something that is perfect for all occasions or be a substitute for
    proper stuff back at the home/office.

    For me the netBook concept was the winner in this category and STILL
    deserves to be developed further. The 5mx also wins in this category and
    should be onward developed.

    Just putting slimmed down Windows on a Pocket PC does not work: it is just
    a window on your data, which you are expected to manipulate when you get
    back to the office. The device may be smaller to carry around (but not that
    small), but it is useless as a device to do proper work on.

    For years I used the 5mx, and would type out draft documents after meetings
    when I was away from the office, transfer across to a desktop later and
    then "top and tail" them. Perfect. The netBook makes it even easier to do.
    Perfect +. And both of them will give you a fair day's work. Even more
    perfect.

    Boris

  7. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:47:39 +1000 received comm from
    Eric Lindsay on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : The big advantage of EPOC was long term stability, and light weight
    : operation. I'm getting uptimes of several months with OS X. Every now
    : and then some OS upgrade wants a reboot, so I haven't tried for really
    : long uptimes, like the several years I was used to with Solaris on Sun.

    Windows doesn't have any problems with up time compared to OS X.

    Here is system info from this machine:

    > C:\Documents and Settings\Martin> systeminfo
    >
    > Host Name: COMPAQ-IPAQ-XP
    > OS Name: Microsoft Windows XP Professional
    > OS Version: 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
    > OS Manufacturer: Microsoft Corporation
    > OS Configuration: Standalone Workstation
    > OS Build Type: Uniprocessor Free
    > Registered Owner: Lovisa Johansson
    > Registered Organization: MTS Technology
    > Product ID: 55276-010-2021423-22040
    > Original Install Date: 2001-11-09, 15:54:23
    > System Up Time: 14 Days, 5 Hours, 30 Minutes, 9 Seconds
    > System Manufacturer: Compaq
    > System Model: iPaq
    > System type: X86-based PC
    > Processor(s): 1 Processor(s) Installed.
    > [01]: x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~730 Mhz
    > BIOS Version: COMPAQ - 20000707


    Restarted for hotfix two weeks ago, but otherwise it can stay up for months with
    daily usages from both me and my wife without any problems.

    This server (running Windows 2000) has been up for more than 1000 days:
    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?....antliateam.it

    Stability and up time isn't any problem for Windows (assuming good hardware and
    device drivers), except that I really *hate* having to reboot for some system
    updates.

    I really hope Microsoft makes away with those (I have read that they are working
    on a technology to update the kernel while running, who will be used in future
    Windows systems).

    : PIM applications are a problem. Agenda is still better in some ways
    : than iCal, but the gap is closing. Plus iCal does several things Agenda
    : can't do. Since my time frame is over a year hence, I think it will be
    : closer to a draw by then.

    I haven't looked at iCal. I personally use Outlook as it has been the standard
    for all the companies I have worked for. Perhaps I could bother to find some
    better calendar, but I know it and it works fine for me, so I'm happy.

    : Backwards software compatibility with Epoc is a problem. I haven't

    Yes, I guess they don't have any Psion/EPOC emulators for Mac OS?

    : but then they lack the integration with each other. I mostly haven't
    : found lack of programs too much of a problem. Finding time to use them
    : all, now that is a problem.

    I like OS X, but besides that I don't want to buy into that expensive hardware,
    I couldn't use a lot of software and hardware that I use to day (like my Polar
    S720i Bicycle computer & Hart Rate Monitor, or my Suunto D9 dive computer).

    I wouldn't be able to connect them (no USB drivers for Mac OS), and I wouldn't
    be able to run the software packages with them (as they don't have any versions
    for Mac). Just two very important examples (for me personally), but I would miss
    a lot of other software as well like Visual Studio and ability to run both ASP
    and .NET code (for me professionally).

    : I tried an IBM laptop with Win XP Home before I tried the Mac. XP drove
    : me insane, to the point where I was ready to throw the thing out. It is

    Strange. I know a lot of loyal Mac fans, but that seems (to me at least) rather
    extreme. I'm curious about what problems you had with it?

    : I was advised by several Linux experts that Linux wasn't ready for
    : desktop operation at the ease of use levels I wanted. Given they knew a

    Well, I tend to agree with that. It's probably more attractive for some computer
    hobbyists and professionals than the average users.

    : > http://www.oqo.com/
    : > http://www.dynamism.com/u50/
    : > http://minipc.vulcan.com/
    :
    : These models are indeed small. However unlike Psion, I don't think any
    : of these three have thought through their design. The OQO has a thumb
    : keyboard, which I had already rejected for a PDA. So does the Vulcan.

    Personally, as for a PDA, I prefer the trade off of a small thumb keyboard to
    get a really portable (as in able to easily put in any pocket) device that I can
    always bring me.

    I can see the use and benefit of larger PDA in some circumstances (I have an old
    HP Jornada machine), but that would in that case have to an *additional* machine
    that I just bring in those cases I know I will have the special need for it

    : The Sony doesn't have a keyboard at all, except as an external one,
    : which again I had already rejected in PDAs. Plus unless Windows has
    : been modified, I suspect the display will be unreadable by anyone with
    : older eyes. If any of these models have the display magnify feature
    : like Psion did, I'd love to know about it.

    No, haven't seen that feature (it's really a great Psion feature I agree).

    : I need a keyboard. I love the Psion touch screen, but by itself it

    I hate it because it makes for a *terrible* screen. Fuzzy and hard to see (and I
    have perfect vision with my glasses on). The much older Psion S3a (still have
    one!) has a much better screen thanks to not being a touch screen (as on the
    Series 5 and later).

    : isn't enough. I use the keyboard way too much to go with handwriting
    : recognition (which the Apple has anyway, thanks to the Newton stuff
    : ported to it). That was why the Palm and Windows CE models didn't seem
    : worthwhile as a Psion replacement.

    My Windows CE machine has a great keyboard (the problem is that just like the
    Psion it's rather outdated when it comes to new software, and as I have become
    more lazy over time, also a bit too big to normally bring it with me).

    But I don't say, or trying to argue, that I'm in any way more right than you.

    After all it's (mostly) a matter of both personal needs and personal
    preferences.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  8. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate 6 Oct 2005 13:46:24 -0700 received comm from
    eriksandblom@yahoo.co.uk on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : But they still don't have long enough battery time -- a day should be
    : the minumum. And they break when you drop them, which is a shame for a
    : device intended to be carried.
    :
    : I think the reason people bought laptops was that they were afraid of
    : using anything that was not MS Windows and MS Office, and they
    : overestimated the difficulty and inconvenience of using anything else.
    : The very sad part about that, is that in so doing, they bought machines
    : that break when you drop them, and run out of gas within a few hours.
    : In short, they fail when used as intended.

    Battery life, yes I agree (but neither Netbook or Series 7 is near the life of
    my Psion S3a, HP Jornada or my Smartphone).

    Break, no. I have had several Psion (both Series 3 and 3a) break when dropped,
    and this happened to a lot of people I know.

    I have dropped my notebook (HP Omnibook 500) a couple of times, and just got
    some ugly scratches on it's magnesium case, but nothing more.

    : Editing a desktop PC document on a PDA will always be a compromise, but
    : that's not because PDAs are worse, it's because 100% compatibility
    : between programs and even program versions will never be achieved. Once

    Exactly. That's why a lot of people (I would say most) prefer the trade off in
    battery life vs the trade off in not being able to install your normal software.

    This is why not only Netbook, both also notebook Windows CE machines failed. The
    format wasn't a good compromise for most users.

    : you accept that, you can start enjoying the benefits of using a device
    : appropriate for the situation.

    I can very well see that you can have valid reason for some exceptions, but they
    was simply to few to be economically viable for the computer manufactures.

    : Let me compare to cars -- many people think cars and airplanes are the
    : only way to get around. Such people might feel that a small car would
    : be best for getting around in a big crowded city. That's the laptop
    : mentality -- basically using an inferior car. I submit that getting
    : around in a big crowded city is best done by using public transport,
    : walking and biking. That's the PDA mentality -- leaving the car idea
    : entirely. By accepting the drawbacks you can enjoy the benefits.

    I like to walk, and also sometimes use my bike for transportation (even it's
    mostly for exercise and pleasure), and also use public transport. That said I
    also sometimes like to take our car even if just in the city (if it rains, if it
    doesn't fit well with public transportation routes or time table, if I need to
    transport or shop things, etc).

    Usually these kind of analogic examples isn't very valid. That said, if we
    should make some, I could compare my smartphone with walking; it's always with
    me and ready to be used whenever I want it. Sure, it's a compromise (I mostly
    miss a QWERTY keyboard), but it's better than all other solution because of it's
    near 100% portability and availability.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  9. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:53:44 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : The challenge for the PDA maker is to minimise the difficulties, not come
    : up with something that is perfect for all occasions or be a substitute for
    : proper stuff back at the home/office.
    :
    : For me the netBook concept was the winner in this category and STILL
    : deserves to be developed further. The 5mx also wins in this category and
    : should be onward developed.

    I don't agree at all.

    I think (and this all isn't absolutes, it's personal opinions and preferences)
    that Psion should have never done the 5mx, and instead continued with it's
    smaller (and for me more functional) Series 3 machines. If they had done that
    and combined it with cellular functionallity, they might have been as successful
    as RIM (with it's BlackBerry devices) or Palm (with it's Treo devices) is today.

    : Just putting slimmed down Windows on a Pocket PC does not work: it is just

    I don't use Pocket PC (even if I use and are very happy with Smartphone version
    of WM on my cellular), but it obviously does for a lot of people.

    The problem with Pocket PC (or Windows CE) as a replacement for a real notebook
    with a desktop version of Windows, is exactly the same as for Psion Netbook.

    You still have a trade off in which software you can install and run on it.
    That's why the larger Jupiter devices (Windows CE for Netbook type of devices)
    utterly failed to be successful in the general market (Psion ironically use
    Windows CE for that kind of machines they sell today, but it's a very small
    niche market for special usage).

    : a window on your data, which you are expected to manipulate when you get
    : back to the office. The device may be smaller to carry around (but not that
    : small), but it is useless as a device to do proper work on.

    If think your too much judgmental and bashing here ("useless", etc) as a lot of
    people actually use them like that. Personally (and I can only speak for my own
    usage and preferences) I also think they generally are too big. That's why I use
    the Smart Phone version of Windows Mobile (same OS as Pocket PC is based on). It
    can go with me easily as it's extremely portable (I think my Qtek 8010 is still
    the worlds smallest smartphone).


    : For years I used the 5mx, and would type out draft documents after meetings
    : when I was away from the office, transfer across to a desktop later and
    : then "top and tail" them. Perfect. The netBook makes it even easier to do.

    And a notebook makes it *even easier* to do. To sum this all up; it's a matter
    of needs and preferences on what sort of compromises you want to do (because it
    will *always* be some sort of compromise), and for most people the "large PDA"
    devices hasn't been what they want.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  10. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Den 2005-10-08 02:18:19 skrev Martin T :

    > Captain's log. On StarDate Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:47:39 +1000 received comm
    > from
    > Eric Lindsay on channel
    > comp.sys.psion.misc:


    > : I tried an IBM laptop with Win XP Home before I tried the Mac. XP
    > drove
    > : me insane, to the point where I was ready to throw the thing out. It
    > is
    >
    > Strange. I know a lot of loyal Mac fans, but that seems (to me at least)
    > rather
    > extreme. I'm curious about what problems you had with it?



    I have to side with Martin here. If it is unstable, something is wrong and
    needs fixing. Regarding the user interface, you have to take a step back
    and try to understand what they were thinking when they designed it. Do
    that, and you will get along much easier wih any interface.

    Having said that, I hate the new windows look... give me a boxy Volvo any
    day.

    Erik Sandblom

    --
    my site is EriksRailNews.com

  11. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Den 2005-10-08 03:07:45 skrev Martin T :

    > Captain's log. On StarDate 6 Oct 2005 13:46:24 -0700 received comm from
    > eriksandblom@yahoo.co.uk on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:
    >
    > : But they still don't have long enough battery time -- a day should be
    > : the minumum. And they break when you drop them, which is a shame for a
    > : device intended to be carried.
    > :
    > : I think the reason people bought laptops was that they were afraid of
    > : using anything that was not MS Windows and MS Office, and they
    > : overestimated the difficulty and inconvenience of using anything else.
    > : The very sad part about that, is that in so doing, they bought machines
    > : that break when you drop them, and run out of gas within a few hours.
    > : In short, they fail when used as intended.
    >
    > Battery life, yes I agree (but neither Netbook or Series 7 is near the
    > life of
    > my Psion S3a, HP Jornada or my Smartphone).
    >
    > Break, no. I have had several Psion (both Series 3 and 3a) break when
    > dropped,
    > and this happened to a lot of people I know.



    Wow. I had to reset myself a couple of times after reading that, because
    my experience is completely opposite. My Netbook and Revo get dropped all
    the time. Sometimes parts come off, but you just snap them on again. I
    have sometimes been unkind to my Netbook. It has earned my loyalty by
    soldiering on and on.

    My Dad dropped his Toshiba Protege once -- once -- and the screen had to
    be replaced for $$$. Toshibas are not cheap, so I assumed they would hold
    up better than most.


    > I have dropped my notebook (HP Omnibook 500) a couple of times, and just
    > got
    > some ugly scratches on it's magnesium case, but nothing more.



    Wow.


    > : Editing a desktop PC document on a PDA will always be a compromise, but
    > : that's not because PDAs are worse, it's because 100% compatibility
    > : between programs and even program versions will never be achieved. Once
    >
    > Exactly. That's why a lot of people (I would say most) prefer the trade
    > off in
    > battery life vs the trade off in not being able to install your normal
    > software.



    But my point was that the whole reason they want to install their normal
    software is that they are too timid to try and learn other software. So
    they never even get as far as *considering* what benefits they might get
    from a non-MS Office solution. Hence they make uninformed decisions.

    Of course you can make an informed decision, and still conclude that a
    traditional laptop is best for you. But I suspect uninformed, uneducated
    consumers have tipped the market in favour of heavy, expensive breakable
    laptops which quickly run out of power. (Though your HP doesn't break.)


    > This is why not only Netbook, both also notebook Windows CE machines
    > failed. The
    > format wasn't a good compromise for most users.



    I think consumers just didn't understand what a good compromise modern
    PDAs are. Plus Windows CE consumed too much power and was too unstable,
    which is a real shame since those are two of the most important aspects
    for portable machines.

    Erik Sandblom

    --
    my site is EriksRailNews.com

  12. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Erik Sandblom wrote:
    > But my point was that the whole reason they want to install their normal
    > software is that they are too timid to try and learn other software.


    And that is the crux of the problem. When you look at the Series 3,
    PSION had gone through a lot of trouble to design a user interface that
    was well suited for most efficient use on a PDA with small keyboard.

    Microsoft products have a user interface designed to be used on a large
    computer with a mouse. Laptops generally give you the same functionlity,
    but certaintly not the same level of usability. Consider for instance
    how slow the "clitoris" pointing device on IBM laptop is. (and how your
    finger ends up hurting after long periods of use).

    So while one can scale down laptops to something approaching a palmtop,
    the default Windows software just doesn't work well on such a small
    screen. And Windows_CE (or whatever it is called this week) isn't the
    same as Windows although the marketing makes you want to think it is.

    The PSION Series 5 was a neat demo of technology, but a form factor that
    expects you to switch between keyboard and pen is flawed for a PDA. (eg:
    when standing up for instance).

    So one really needs to have applications designed for the type of use.

    Where the mini-laptop comes into play is if you move from one office to
    another and can plug in your mini plaptop to have large screen, real
    keyboard and mouse. (essentially, you are carrying a glorified hard disk
    with pre-confugured windows and your own documents on the disk).

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