Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400? - Websphere

This is a discussion on Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400? - Websphere ; Hi, here I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on ...

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  1. Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Hi, here

    I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same CPU Hz and same capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my customer to run WAS outside of OS400.

    Hans

  2. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Hi Hans,

    WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel =>
    run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.

    Dieter Bender

    Mississauga Hans wrote:

    > Hi, here
    >
    > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR with
    > Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report that WAS on
    > OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same CPU Hz and same
    > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my customer to
    > run WAS outside of OS400.
    >
    > Hans



  3. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Dieter Bender wrote in message news:...
    > Hi Hans,
    >
    > WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel =>
    > run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.
    >
    > Dieter Bender
    >
    > Mississauga Hans wrote:
    >
    > > Hi, here
    > >
    > > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR with
    > > Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report that WAS on
    > > OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same CPU Hz and same
    > > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    > > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my customer to
    > > run WAS outside of OS400.
    > >
    > > Hans


    Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    runtime, but, what with database access???
    Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside Os400
    (if your machine has good processor and memory features --> >400 CPW
    and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a performance
    adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance results. At redbooks
    site from IBM you'll find information about this performance
    adjustements for websphere on iSeries.

    Bye

  4. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Luis Lopez wrote:

    > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Hi Hans,
    >>
    >> WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel =>
    >> run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.
    >>
    >> Dieter Bender
    >>
    >> Mississauga Hans wrote:
    >>
    >> > Hi, here
    >> >
    >> > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR
    >> > with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report
    >> > that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same CPU
    >> > Hz and same
    >> > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    >> > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my customer
    >> > to run WAS outside of OS400.
    >> >
    >> > Hans

    >
    > Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    > runtime, but, what with database access???
    > Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    > Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    > queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside Os400
    > (if your machine has good processor and memory features --> >400 CPW
    > and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a performance
    > adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance results. At redbooks
    > site from IBM you'll find information about this performance
    > adjustements for websphere on iSeries.
    >
    > Bye

    Hi,

    Toolbox driver works fine and is as fast as native driver in most
    constellations. I've not seen advantages for native driver using database
    monitor (be sure to use the precompiled jt400 on as400). Seperating
    database, webserver and application server is more scalable than one big
    iron.

    Dieter

  5. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Well outside Mr Bender's world, things are not so simple:

    The iSeries scales from 1 CPU (2400 cpw) to 32 CPU (37400 cpw) in a
    much more linear fashion than intel kit, the Xeon MP processor with
    it's puny 400mhz FSB is a stunted dwarf compared to the might of
    POWER5 with the crossbar memory switch. Also, the iSeries has
    enterprise grade partitioning and work management, can be easily
    partitioned on the fly - compare that to VMWare on windows.

    Often decisions are made without regard to the cost of ownership, and
    as we all know vast farms of cheap servers keep sub-standard techies
    like Mr Bender in gainful employment swapping out power supplies and
    motherboards - but when you absolutely, positively must get the job
    done with a minimum of downtime, trust an iSeries.




    Dieter Bender wrote in message news:...
    > Luis Lopez wrote:
    >
    > > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> Hi Hans,
    > >>
    > >> WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel =>
    > >> run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.
    > >>
    > >> Dieter Bender
    > >>
    > >> Mississauga Hans wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Hi, here
    > >> >
    > >> > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR
    > >> > with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report
    > >> > that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same CPU
    > >> > Hz and same
    > >> > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    > >> > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my customer
    > >> > to run WAS outside of OS400.
    > >> >
    > >> > Hans

    > >
    > > Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    > > runtime, but, what with database access???
    > > Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    > > Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    > > queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside Os400
    > > (if your machine has good processor and memory features --> >400 CPW
    > > and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a performance
    > > adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance results. At redbooks
    > > site from IBM you'll find information about this performance
    > > adjustements for websphere on iSeries.
    > >
    > > Bye

    > Hi,
    >
    > Toolbox driver works fine and is as fast as native driver in most
    > constellations. I've not seen advantages for native driver using database
    > monitor (be sure to use the precompiled jt400 on as400). Seperating
    > database, webserver and application server is more scalable than one big
    > iron.
    >
    > Dieter


  6. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Jonathan,

    that might be true (I hope so, because I like as400) for everything besides
    WebSphere. Did you recognize that the full edition of WebSphere with
    multiple VM support and loadbalancing is not available for as400?

    Dieter Bender

    Jonathan Rowe wrote:

    > Well outside Mr Bender's world, things are not so simple:
    >
    > The iSeries scales from 1 CPU (2400 cpw) to 32 CPU (37400 cpw) in a
    > much more linear fashion than intel kit, the Xeon MP processor with
    > it's puny 400mhz FSB is a stunted dwarf compared to the might of
    > POWER5 with the crossbar memory switch. Also, the iSeries has
    > enterprise grade partitioning and work management, can be easily
    > partitioned on the fly - compare that to VMWare on windows.
    >
    > Often decisions are made without regard to the cost of ownership, and
    > as we all know vast farms of cheap servers keep sub-standard techies
    > like Mr Bender in gainful employment swapping out power supplies and
    > motherboards - but when you absolutely, positively must get the job
    > done with a minimum of downtime, trust an iSeries.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Luis Lopez wrote:
    >>
    >> > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Hi Hans,
    >> >>
    >> >> WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel
    >> >> => run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.
    >> >>
    >> >> Dieter Bender
    >> >>
    >> >> Mississauga Hans wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > Hi, here
    >> >> >
    >> >> > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR
    >> >> > with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report
    >> >> > that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same
    >> >> > CPU Hz and same
    >> >> > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    >> >> > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my
    >> >> > customer to run WAS outside of OS400.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Hans
    >> >
    >> > Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    >> > runtime, but, what with database access???
    >> > Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    >> > Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    >> > queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside Os400
    >> > (if your machine has good processor and memory features --> >400 CPW
    >> > and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a performance
    >> > adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance results. At redbooks
    >> > site from IBM you'll find information about this performance
    >> > adjustements for websphere on iSeries.
    >> >
    >> > Bye

    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Toolbox driver works fine and is as fast as native driver in most
    >> constellations. I've not seen advantages for native driver using database
    >> monitor (be sure to use the precompiled jt400 on as400). Seperating
    >> database, webserver and application server is more scalable than one big
    >> iron.
    >>
    >> Dieter



  7. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Those would be very good points Mr. Bender, but do you realize that you're
    wrong? I'm not sure how you came to the conclustion that iSeries doesn't
    support load balancing and multiple VM support, but you need to check your
    sources. WebSphere Application Server Network Deployment, which is supported on
    iSeries, contains all of this functionality. Please feel free to read our
    documentation regarding the various topologies customers can implement.

    5.1 Documentation:
    http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/was400.../admin/top.htm

    5.0 Documentation:
    http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/was400.../admin/top.htm

    In case you weren't sure, the load balancing is handled by what are called
    Horizontal Clones (aka Horizontal Scaling). That section may be of interest to
    you.

    -Byron


    Dieter Bender wrote:

    > Jonathan,
    >
    > that might be true (I hope so, because I like as400) for everything besides
    > WebSphere. Did you recognize that the full edition of WebSphere with
    > multiple VM support and loadbalancing is not available for as400?
    >
    > Dieter Bender
    >
    > Jonathan Rowe wrote:
    >
    > > Well outside Mr Bender's world, things are not so simple:
    > >
    > > The iSeries scales from 1 CPU (2400 cpw) to 32 CPU (37400 cpw) in a
    > > much more linear fashion than intel kit, the Xeon MP processor with
    > > it's puny 400mhz FSB is a stunted dwarf compared to the might of
    > > POWER5 with the crossbar memory switch. Also, the iSeries has
    > > enterprise grade partitioning and work management, can be easily
    > > partitioned on the fly - compare that to VMWare on windows.
    > >
    > > Often decisions are made without regard to the cost of ownership, and
    > > as we all know vast farms of cheap servers keep sub-standard techies
    > > like Mr Bender in gainful employment swapping out power supplies and
    > > motherboards - but when you absolutely, positively must get the job
    > > done with a minimum of downtime, trust an iSeries.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> Luis Lopez wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    > >> > news:...
    > >> >> Hi Hans,
    > >> >>
    > >> >> WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as possibel
    > >> >> => run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and mostly fastest.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Dieter Bender
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Mississauga Hans wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > Hi, here
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a LPAR
    > >> >> > with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer report
    > >> >> > that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server ( same
    > >> >> > CPU Hz and same
    > >> >> > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than PC
    > >> >> > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my
    > >> >> > customer to run WAS outside of OS400.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > Hans
    > >> >
    > >> > Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    > >> > runtime, but, what with database access???
    > >> > Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    > >> > Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    > >> > queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside Os400
    > >> > (if your machine has good processor and memory features --> >400 CPW
    > >> > and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a performance
    > >> > adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance results. At redbooks
    > >> > site from IBM you'll find information about this performance
    > >> > adjustements for websphere on iSeries.
    > >> >
    > >> > Bye
    > >> Hi,
    > >>
    > >> Toolbox driver works fine and is as fast as native driver in most
    > >> constellations. I've not seen advantages for native driver using database
    > >> monitor (be sure to use the precompiled jt400 on as400). Seperating
    > >> database, webserver and application server is more scalable than one big
    > >> iron.
    > >>
    > >> Dieter



  8. Re: Run WAS inside OS/400 or outside OS/400?

    Byron,

    I was talking about the top edition of WebSphere; formerly it was called
    enterprise edition and this did never run on as400 and I did never here of
    an announcement that it would be in future. Today the top edition is called
    "WebSphere Business Integration Server Foundation" and a look to:
    http://www-306.ibm.com/software/inte.../requirements/
    tells me, that it doesn't run on os400 (yes, I have noticed, that it should
    run on linux on as400).
    If IBM wants to make clear to its customers, that as400 is a platform of
    choice for WebSphere, you should simply implement the top version of this
    (phantastic) product on as400 and you should let it run on this platform to
    competable prices, with the same stability it runs on other platforms and I
    would be one of the first to change my mind and to recommend to run
    WebSphere on as400.
    My main work is web application development in the as400 environment and the
    problems with running WebSphere on as400 is one of the points for most of
    my customers to switch over to another application Server (Tomcat), or to
    change the platform for WebSphere (often to NT) and in both cases they
    never come back to WebSphere on as400. The main problems with WAS on as400
    are speed, price/performance and stability (eating up memory, freezing the
    system), support is another issue in germany.
    I'm a wellknwon person in the as400 community in germany (publications,
    speaker at common events, etc.) and its not so easy to me to make
    recommendations for the choice of the appserver and the platform to run it.
    If I recommend to run WAS on as400, the latest point my customers will get
    angry is reached, when they see their unchanged application running on
    WebSphere on NT, for instance. We have made measurments under load and it
    ran faster on NT (< 10,000 $) compared to as400 (> 100,000 $); it did not
    only run faster, it even scaled much better.
    Recommending another product, or another platform is not easy too. My
    custumors don't want to hear a recommendation to use another software, not
    provided by IBM and they don't want to hear to use another hardware as
    as400, because all as400 custumors are very comfortable with as400 (and me
    too).
    No easy choice for me, but as long as the problems with the stability of
    WebSphere on as400 and the support (scaling systems for Websphere, ptf
    support)in germany is not enhanced, I see no chance to change my
    recommendations for the entry level users. Yes as400 is very scalable and
    the recommendation might change for big (or growing) installations, but
    what to do, if you need features of the top edition? I can't imagine that
    these features are useless and not needed for scalability.

    Dieter Bender

    Byron Bailey wrote:

    > Those would be very good points Mr. Bender, but do you realize that you're
    > wrong? I'm not sure how you came to the conclustion that iSeries doesn't
    > support load balancing and multiple VM support, but you need to check your
    > sources. WebSphere Application Server Network Deployment, which is
    > supported on
    > iSeries, contains all of this functionality. Please feel free to read our
    > documentation regarding the various topologies customers can implement.
    >
    > 5.1 Documentation:
    > http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/was400...rzaiz/51/admin

    top.htm
    >
    > 5.0 Documentation:
    > http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/was400.../admin/top.htm
    >
    > In case you weren't sure, the load balancing is handled by what are called
    > Horizontal Clones (aka Horizontal Scaling). That section may be of
    > interest to you.
    >
    > -Byron
    >
    >
    > Dieter Bender wrote:
    >
    >> Jonathan,
    >>
    >> that might be true (I hope so, because I like as400) for everything
    >> besides WebSphere. Did you recognize that the full edition of WebSphere
    >> with multiple VM support and loadbalancing is not available for as400?
    >>
    >> Dieter Bender
    >>
    >> Jonathan Rowe wrote:
    >>
    >> > Well outside Mr Bender's world, things are not so simple:
    >> >
    >> > The iSeries scales from 1 CPU (2400 cpw) to 32 CPU (37400 cpw) in a
    >> > much more linear fashion than intel kit, the Xeon MP processor with
    >> > it's puny 400mhz FSB is a stunted dwarf compared to the might of
    >> > POWER5 with the crossbar memory switch. Also, the iSeries has
    >> > enterprise grade partitioning and work management, can be easily
    >> > partitioned on the fly - compare that to VMWare on windows.
    >> >
    >> > Often decisions are made without regard to the cost of ownership, and
    >> > as we all know vast farms of cheap servers keep sub-standard techies
    >> > like Mr Bender in gainful employment swapping out power supplies and
    >> > motherboards - but when you absolutely, positively must get the job
    >> > done with a minimum of downtime, trust an iSeries.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> >> Luis Lopez wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > Dieter Bender wrote in message
    >> >> > news:...
    >> >> >> Hi Hans,
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> WebsFear needs plenty of main memory and as much GigaHertz as
    >> >> >> possibel => run it on an intel box, this would be cheapest and
    >> >> >> mostly fastest.
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> Dieter Bender
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> Mississauga Hans wrote:
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> > Hi, here
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > I have a question about if I will run WAS inside OS/400 or on a
    >> >> >> > LPAR with Linux for iSeries ( outside OS400)? many of my customer
    >> >> >> > report that WAS on OS400 is much slower than running on PC Server
    >> >> >> > ( same CPU Hz and same
    >> >> >> > capability of memory, of course iSeries is more expensive than
    >> >> >> > PC
    >> >> >> > Server). so just wonder if this is a good idea to suggest my
    >> >> >> > customer to run WAS outside of OS400.
    >> >> >> >
    >> >> >> > Hans
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Plese be careful, be cause your proposition only provides Fast java
    >> >> > runtime, but, what with database access???
    >> >> > Outside Os400 we must use toolbox driver, but inside, we can use
    >> >> > Native JDBC driver wich has much better performance in databse
    >> >> > queries. If your application uses heavy queries, put WAS inside
    >> >> > Os400 (if your machine has good processor and memory features -->
    >> >> > >400 CPW and > 1Gb RAM dedicated to WAS. It is MANDATORY to do a
    >> >> > performance adjust to your Os400 to achieve good performance
    >> >> > results. At redbooks site from IBM you'll find information about
    >> >> > this performance adjustements for websphere on iSeries.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Bye
    >> >> Hi,
    >> >>
    >> >> Toolbox driver works fine and is as fast as native driver in most
    >> >> constellations. I've not seen advantages for native driver using
    >> >> database monitor (be sure to use the precompiled jt400 on as400).
    >> >> Seperating database, webserver and application server is more scalable
    >> >> than one big iron.
    >> >>
    >> >> Dieter



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