Bell Labs closes - VMS

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  1. Bell Labs closes

    After 73 years, 6 Nobel prizes, and numerous inventions from
    transistors and lasers to fiber optics and cell phones (not to mention
    the UNIX operating system and the C programming language), Bell Labs
    is closing. What has happened to the sputnik society?

    http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/0...abs-kills.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_labs

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/OpenVMS.html

  2. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article , Neil Rieck writes:
    >After 73 years, 6 Nobel prizes, and numerous inventions from
    >transistors and lasers to fiber optics and cell phones (not to mention
    >the UNIX operating system and the C programming language), Bell Labs
    >is closing. What has happened to the sputnik society?


    Of course, Unix and C were its downfall!

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    .... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
    no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)

    Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
    of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
    notice, disclaimer and quotations.

  3. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article , Neil Rieck writes:
    >After 73 years, 6 Nobel prizes, and numerous inventions from
    >transistors and lasers to fiber optics and cell phones (not to mention
    >the UNIX operating system and the C programming language), Bell Labs
    >is closing. What has happened to the sputnik society?


    Most of my college professors were adjuncts from Bell Labs. One of my
    favorite professors was a Dr. Leonard Cimini from Bell Labs whom I had
    as professor for several information and communications theory classes
    when I was working on my MSEE at Monmouth.

    Hard to believe this news. I'd nominate the transistor as one of the
    MOST important and influential inventions/discoveries of the 20th cen-
    tury. Most all of us here on c.o.v would not be here today if it were
    not for the transistor, invented/discovered at Bell Labs.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    .... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
    no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)

    Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
    of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
    notice, disclaimer and quotations.

  4. Re: Bell Labs closes

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > And this poses an interesting problem: will the western
    > company be able to compete head to head with China on a cost basis ? The
    > lack of esoteric research basically ensures that the western company
    > won't come up with something *totally* new that China won't have.


    This kind of projections of the future are mostly flawed, since
    they assume that things will just go on indefinitely like they did
    in the past. For China this would mean to assume, that they always
    will be more cost effective and at the same time more inventive than
    the West.
    I don't think so. Wages will increase, as will transport costs,
    making it increasingly unattractive to import from there.
    This has happened in Eastern Europe, which a decade ago was seen
    a big threat to Western Europe employees. No more.
    I've seen reports that e.g. Estonian constructors hire german
    companies because they are cheaper, more dependable,
    and work at fixed prices.
    And China has a lot of problems on its own, repeating all
    mistakes of western industrialization in record time.
    Gigantic pollution with associated costs (health, environment),
    a rapidly aging population,
    and social problems of all kinds.


  5. RE: Bell Labs closes

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Michael Kraemer [mailto:M.Kraemer@gsi.de]
    > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 4:22 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes
    >
    > JF Mezei schrieb:
    >
    > > And this poses an interesting problem: will the western
    > > company be able to compete head to head with China on a cost basis ?

    > The
    > > lack of esoteric research basically ensures that the western company
    > > won't come up with something *totally* new that China won't have.

    >
    > This kind of projections of the future are mostly flawed, since
    > they assume that things will just go on indefinitely like they did
    > in the past. For China this would mean to assume, that they always
    > will be more cost effective and at the same time more inventive than
    > the West.


    [snip ..]

    Darwin theory - "it's not the strong that will survive, but rather the
    most adaptable to change ..."

    Some good lessons in this theory.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  6. There's not enough food for THREE but. . .(Re: Bell Labs closes)

    Hi Kerry,

    > Darwin theory - "it's not the strong that will survive, but
    > rather the most adaptable to change ..."


    So you'd be advocating a customer move away from the VMS status quo to
    something different then?

    Cheers Richard Maher

    PS. "Those who are willing to devour the friends, family, and installed-base
    with also extend their longevity; if only for a short time". And once your
    mates have "changed" VMS into the most expensive and poorly performing Unix
    on the planet, then what?

    Don't worry; there's still some fat juicy VMS customers out there that are
    just waiting to be wacked over the head in the name of evolution (or
    self-preservation). Just are the gSOAP guys!

    But as a huge fan of Intelligent Design (in general, and as opposed to Unix
    and Windows specifically) let me tell your colleagues to get their filthy
    mutating gene-tampering hands off VMS and go over there and start with that
    amoeba!

    Please stop appologizing for VMS!

    "Main, Kerry" wrote in message
    news:9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED8166CDF@GV W1158EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net...
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Michael Kraemer [mailto:M.Kraemer@gsi.de]
    > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 4:22 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes
    >
    > JF Mezei schrieb:
    >
    > > And this poses an interesting problem: will the western
    > > company be able to compete head to head with China on a cost basis ?

    > The
    > > lack of esoteric research basically ensures that the western company
    > > won't come up with something *totally* new that China won't have.

    >
    > This kind of projections of the future are mostly flawed, since
    > they assume that things will just go on indefinitely like they did
    > in the past. For China this would mean to assume, that they always
    > will be more cost effective and at the same time more inventive than
    > the West.


    [snip ..]

    Darwin theory - "it's not the strong that will survive, but rather the
    most adaptable to change ..."

    Some good lessons in this theory.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  7. Re: Bell Labs closes

    "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    >
    > [snip ..]
    >
    > Darwin theory - "it's not the strong that will survive, but rather the
    > most adaptable to change ..."


    Well, no - not quite. The essence of Darwin is that those species which
    are BEST ADAPTED to their environment are the most able/likely to
    survive. If the environment changes, it can take many generations for
    adaptations to appear that will help a species to continue/recover.

    For example, "drug resistant" microbes did not "respond"to antibiotics,
    rather they simply continued their natural proclivities for mutation.
    Those that survive in the greatest numbers are those least susceptible
    to antibiotics.

    I understand what you were trying to say. My point is that Darwin is not
    a good source for appropriate citations in that context.

    In and of itself, change is neither good nor bad. "It depends".

    Change for the sake of change rarely produces anything positive.

    Change where change is appropriate usually leads to a more desirable
    result than the status quo.

    D.J.D.

  8. Re: Bell Labs closes

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >
    >> I don't think so. Wages will increase, as will transport costs,
    >> making it increasingly unattractive to import from there.

    >
    > On the surface yes. But if , by the time Chain's costs/wages rise, the

    ^^^^^^^

    It's not easy being dyslexic!

  9. Re: Bell Labs closes

    Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:

    > Right now I'd be VERY careful with ANYTHING "Made
    > in China".


    Unfortunately there is not much choice left over to buy
    sth *not* made in China.

    > It's a shame that they, and other countries, have to learn the hard way,
    > lessons that the rest of the world takes for granted!
    >
    > Even though humans CAN learn from the experience of others, it seems
    > that we don't do it very well!


    It seems those countries learn only part of the lessons.
    I.e. the easy part: "be greedy and get rich real fast".


  10. Re: Bell Labs closes

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > The other issue here is that while you accept that people in Asia will
    > enentually get higher wages and better living conditions, nobody accepts
    > that the western world would have to lower its standard of living in
    > order to remain competitive.


    Has happened already.
    Over here employees with lower wages
    (i.e. a big chunk of the population)
    have seen further erosion of their effective income
    over the past decade.
    Only the "upper ten thousand" benefit from
    globalization.
    I guess it's not that much different in the rest
    of the western world.


  11. Re: Bell Labs closes

    John Wallace wrote:

    > Indeed. But in practice, what choice do we have, how can we be careful, when
    > in many market sectors the globalisation beancounters already exported all
    > the manufacturing jobs (and the associated pollution etc) from the West to
    > China and the like, in the interests of "competitiveness", leaving customers
    > no choice except which badge is on our Chinese-made product?


    Individuals can make that choice.

    I bought a reel lawnmower (those manual ones) from Canadian Tire
    (former-hardware-now-walmart_wannabe store). It lasted 1 year. I needed
    one of the cogs that drive the cutter from movement of wheel.

    Was quite the experience to tracks the "Yardworks" brand from a Canadian
    Tire house brand, contracted to McCulloch, a company that doesn't exist
    anymore (owned by chinese) and eventually tracking down a place that had
    the part numbers for that model of mower I had. Once I got the part
    numbers, I found out lead time for that cog was over 6 months because it
    had to be ordered from china.


    I ended up buying a similar mower with a "Scotts" brand which was made
    by American Lawn Mower https://www.reelin.com/

    Last year, the mower had an unfortunate encounter with a car backing out
    of driveway. Called their number, told them I had the 20" model from
    Scotts, that I needed 1 spare back wheel and the middle part of handle
    bar, and I got it within a week by mail. No need to hunt down part
    numbers because the people who answered the phone knew their products
    (even if American Lawn Mower doesn't sell its own version of the 20" one
    marketed by Scotts). Since the mower was less than a year old, they
    said it was covered by warrantee. (I ended up buying the sharpening kit
    while I was at it).

    The difference in service and ease of doing business was HUGE. Good
    customer service can exist in Asia, but generally, it doesn't.

    Now, if you buy garment for a 2 year old kid that will be outgrown in 6
    months, you don't care about service or quality. But for something which
    you hope will last and for which you might need to have spare parts,
    then it starts to make quite a difference.


    Now, because I am the odd one in the neighbourhood, mowing the lawn with
    that manual mower, I have had a few people stop and ask questions about
    it. Everytime, I mention to not buy the canadian tire one because it
    comes from china and you can't get spare parts for it.


    If everyone did that, then people would either buy more locally, or they
    would demand that chinse products come with good service and easy of
    getting parts.

  12. RE: Bell Labs closes

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net]
    > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:27 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes
    >
    > "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    > >
    > > [snip ..]
    > >
    > > Darwin theory - "it's not the strong that will survive, but rather

    > the
    > > most adaptable to change ..."

    >
    > Well, no - not quite. The essence of Darwin is that those species which
    > are BEST ADAPTED to their environment are the most able/likely to
    > survive. If the environment changes, it can take many generations for
    > adaptations to appear that will help a species to continue/recover.
    >
    > For example, "drug resistant" microbes did not "respond"to antibiotics,
    > rather they simply continued their natural proclivities for mutation.
    > Those that survive in the greatest numbers are those least susceptible
    > to antibiotics.
    >
    > I understand what you were trying to say. My point is that Darwin is
    > not
    > a good source for appropriate citations in that context.
    >


    Ok, regardless of the source, the point remains that, contrary to what
    many people would like to see, the rate of change in the world is on
    the increase.

    One can stand by and argue about the good ole days or you can recognize
    things are changing and take some steps which will hopefully put you
    in a better position to adapt to those changes.

    Having been through 30 years of Digital->Compaq->HP and now EDS
    integration, it Is interesting to see how change impacts a company's
    culture and the people involved (some good, some not so good).

    > In and of itself, change is neither good nor bad. "It depends".
    >


    Regardless, it is inevitable, so one needs to recognize this and
    take steps to deal with it.

    One good example is Canada starting discussions with Europe for free
    trade agreements. Some may not like this, but the reality is that the
    world is rapidly becoming (even more so) a global economy.

    > Change for the sake of change rarely produces anything positive.
    >
    > Change where change is appropriate usually leads to a more desirable
    > result than the status quo.
    >


    Agreed - "planned" change is more desirable than "reactive" change.

    However, as the recent financial crisis has shown, sometimes there
    are things that happen that are totally out of your control.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  13. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
    >
    >> Right now I'd be VERY careful with ANYTHING "Made
    >> in China".

    >
    >Unfortunately there is not much choice left over to buy
    >sth *not* made in China.


    I didn't even have to buy. APC just sent me a "Swiss Army Knife" made
    in China (from the peel off sticker on the knife).

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    .... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
    no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)

    Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
    of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
    notice, disclaimer and quotations.

  14. Re: Bell Labs closes

    "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net]
    > > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:27 PM
    > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: Re: Bell Labs closes
    > > [snip]
    > > Change for the sake of change rarely produces anything positive.
    > >
    > > Change where change is appropriate usually leads to a more desirable
    > > result than the status quo.
    > >

    >
    > Agreed - "planned" change is more desirable than "reactive" change.


    Planned or unplanned, the change has to make sense - not just be change
    for the sake of change.

    > However, as the recent financial crisis has shown, sometimes there
    > are things that happen that are totally out of your control.


    Well, be careful not to fall into the "victim" mentality there. When we
    invest in stocks, etc., we make the conscious choice to accept certain
    risks. In essence, we got what we bargained for - just perhaps more than
    we expected.

    I recently became aware of "The Wellington Letter" and plan to explore
    it seriously as a source of information. I believe that if I am better
    informed I can make better decisions than, say, Fidelity or whoever.

    D.J.D.

  15. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article <490537c7$0$9620$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >
    > On the surface yes. But if , by the time Chain's costs/wages rise, the
    > western economy will be decimated and without viable manufacturing
    > infrastructure ? Rebuilding it will be very hard.


    Large companies who have relied on Chinese labor to keep thier costs
    down are already moving thier work to the US because in some cases
    it's now cheaper to do so.


  16. Re: Bell Labs closes

    On Nov 1, 9:48*pm, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > AEF wrote:
    >

    [...snip...]
    >
    > It may be prudent, at this juncture, to consider "The Serenity Prayer":
    > Lord, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage
    > to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
    >
    > D.J.D.


    For a millisecond I thought this prayer had something to do with the
    SciFi movie.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_(2005_film)

    NSR

  17. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article <00A81B95.5CC47CE3@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    > In article , Michael Kraemer
    > writes:
    > >Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
    > >
    > >> Right now I'd be VERY careful with ANYTHING "Made
    > >> in China".

    > >
    > >Unfortunately there is not much choice left over to buy
    > >sth *not* made in China.

    >
    > I didn't even have to buy. APC just sent me a "Swiss Army Knife" made
    > in China (from the peel off sticker on the knife).


    Cough, splutter. The real version looks like this:

    http://www.victorinox.ch/index.cfm?page=0&lang=E

    --
    Paul Sture

  18. Re: Bell Labs closes

    In article , "P. Sture" writes:
    >In article <00A81B95.5CC47CE3@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
    > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >
    >> In article , Michael Kraemer
    >> writes:
    >> >Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
    >> >
    >> >> Right now I'd be VERY careful with ANYTHING "Made
    >> >> in China".
    >> >
    >> >Unfortunately there is not much choice left over to buy
    >> >sth *not* made in China.

    >>
    >> I didn't even have to buy. APC just sent me a "Swiss Army Knife" made
    >> in China (from the peel off sticker on the knife).

    >
    >Cough, splutter. The real version looks like this:
    >
    >http://www.victorinox.ch/index.cfm?page=0&lang=E


    I know Paul. Mine look almost like that but in lieu of the spoon and fork
    extractable widgets it has chop-sticks.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    .... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection
    no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC)

    Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside
    of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright
    notice, disclaimer and quotations.

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