PC Systems for sale - VMS

This is a discussion on PC Systems for sale - VMS ; Well, I normally don't take the bait on discussions like this - I tend to sit back and just have a good laugh. There seems to be precious little of the 'best tool for the job' mentality. This applies in ...

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Thread: PC Systems for sale

  1. Re: PC Systems for sale

    Well, I normally don't take the bait on discussions like this - I tend
    to sit back and just have a good laugh.
    There seems to be precious little of the 'best tool for the job'
    mentality. This applies in every decision that an adult makes.

    In the working world it is an unfortunate reality that we don't always
    get the choose the most productive environment and tools for us as
    individuals. As an example, I use a sun thin client to connect to a
    sun server, then start an RDP session onto a Windows box. This is
    where the development tools are installed that I am expected to use.
    From my position, I'd rather develop under UNIX, because the UNIX
    toolset is familiar to me and designed for an experience user.
    However, from a company perspective, their normal users have been
    exposed primarily to Windows. I understand that there are sound
    business reasons for them to use Windows for non-development office
    staff. It's my job to convince them that the benefits of our team
    using UNIX to develop under outweigh the disadvantages.

    Windows is the environment of choice for most companies simply because
    it is the dominant operating system, and therefore requires the least
    investment in retraining. More companies are appreciating however that
    Linux is now significantly closer in terms of the user interaction
    experience and toolset (OpenOffice/StarOffice) for office workers that
    the cost of retraining is low enough to make the other benefits
    (stability, manageability, etc) outweigh the disadvantages. The
    increasing use of open source software also allows companies to switch
    between environments without loosing functionality. For example, as
    most development tools I use run on a Java platform I can happily
    switch between Windows and Linux with very little disruption.

    The problem I see from the OpenVMS perspective is that open source
    development has left the platform behind. I believe the reason for
    this is the same reason why most computers have an Intel x86
    processor. I think we've just gone too far now to reach a critical
    mass where there is enough open source software ported to OpenVMS to
    get users back on.

    Specialized use is an entirely different scenario. If you want a
    server with excellent stability and security then OpenVMS is a good
    choice.

    In my spare time I primarily use Linux and OpenVMS. I have two
    options. I can use my Linux box as a desktop and remotely display my
    OpenVMS desktop, or use the OpenVMS box directly. However, as the
    ZX6000 I use does not support DVI I tend to use my Linux box as a
    desktop because the display is much crisper. I also note that

    I guess what I'm trying to say here that everyone on this list
    probably has their own set of requirements and I don't see arguing
    about them is getting us anywhere. I struggle enough with my own
    conflicting requirements. I love DEC kit and OpenVMS because I have
    history with them and appreciate them both as fine examples of
    engineering. However, I have to support a family and that means
    working with operating systems and hardware that I consider inferior.

    Mark.

    p.s. I got caught by the OpenVMS relicensing issue the other day. As I
    only had a VT terminal at hand I typed the values in by hand. No big
    deal. I love command line interfaces as they can be much more
    productive for experienced users.

    I worked on a GUI replacement for a call centre application and the
    reason was not productivity but ease of training. The experienced
    users of the green screen application were phenomenally quick as was
    the application. The GUI replacement was incredibly slow and
    frustrating for the experienced users. At the end of the day, however,
    the replacement remained because it took 3 months training to get up
    to speed with the GUI app and a year with the green screen app. The
    average employment duration of an operative had dropped from ten years
    to three years, so a year of training was just too costly.



  2. RE: PC Systems for sale


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: urbancamo [mailto:mark@wickensonline.co.uk]
    > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:25 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: PC Systems for sale
    >
    > Well, I normally don't take the bait on discussions like this - I tend
    > to sit back and just have a good laugh.
    > There seems to be precious little of the 'best tool for the job'
    > mentality. This applies in every decision that an adult makes.
    >
    > In the working world it is an unfortunate reality that we don't always
    > get the choose the most productive environment and tools for us as
    > individuals. As an example, I use a sun thin client to connect to a
    > sun server, then start an RDP session onto a Windows box. This is
    > where the development tools are installed that I am expected to use.
    > From my position, I'd rather develop under UNIX, because the UNIX
    > toolset is familiar to me and designed for an experience user.
    > However, from a company perspective, their normal users have been
    > exposed primarily to Windows. I understand that there are sound
    > business reasons for them to use Windows for non-development office
    > staff. It's my job to convince them that the benefits of our team
    > using UNIX to develop under outweigh the disadvantages.
    >
    > Windows is the environment of choice for most companies simply because
    > it is the dominant operating system, and therefore requires the least
    > investment in retraining. More companies are appreciating however that
    > Linux is now significantly closer in terms of the user interaction
    > experience and toolset (OpenOffice/StarOffice) for office workers that
    > the cost of retraining is low enough to make the other benefits
    > (stability, manageability, etc) outweigh the disadvantages. The
    > increasing use of open source software also allows companies to switch
    > between environments without loosing functionality. For example, as
    > most development tools I use run on a Java platform I can happily
    > switch between Windows and Linux with very little disruption.
    >


    And so with Java on OpenVMS. Some Cust's will develop Java on Windows/
    Linux but deploy (copy) on OpenVMS for added security and native
    active-active clustering.

    > The problem I see from the OpenVMS perspective is that open source
    > development has left the platform behind. I believe the reason for
    > this is the same reason why most computers have an Intel x86
    > processor. I think we've just gone too far now to reach a critical
    > mass where there is enough open source software ported to OpenVMS to
    > get users back on.
    >


    Open source OS options will always have a place, but imho, are losing
    steam right now as senior managers do not want their IT staff playing
    in the weeds with low level bits-n-bytes OS stuff. They would prefer
    these resources focus on working with their business units to help them
    become more competitive. Given that the OS and associated training is
    a small microism of the total IT budget, most senior Execs could not
    care less what their IT OS strategy is.

    In addition, many senior exec's want a single throat to choke when
    things get messed up.

    > Specialized use is an entirely different scenario. If you want a
    > server with excellent stability and security then OpenVMS is a good
    > choice.
    >


    No argument there.

    > In my spare time I primarily use Linux and OpenVMS. I have two
    > options. I can use my Linux box as a desktop and remotely display my
    > OpenVMS desktop, or use the OpenVMS box directly. However, as the
    > ZX6000 I use does not support DVI I tend to use my Linux box as a
    > desktop because the display is much crisper. I also note that
    >
    > I guess what I'm trying to say here that everyone on this list
    > probably has their own set of requirements and I don't see arguing
    > about them is getting us anywhere. I struggle enough with my own
    > conflicting requirements. I love DEC kit and OpenVMS because I have
    > history with them and appreciate them both as fine examples of
    > engineering. However, I have to support a family and that means
    > working with operating systems and hardware that I consider inferior.
    >
    > Mark.


    While no one will argue with personal decisions you make that are best
    suited for your specific conditions, you also need to realize that the
    IT world is moving back to very centralized, very HA, very secure
    environments. Server and DC consolidation projects are happening in
    almost every med-large company today. The number 1 and 2 targets for
    these server consolidation projects are x86 based Windows and to a
    smaller degree, Linux environments running at 5-15% peak utilization
    during "busy" parts of the day. This is a fact - not OS religion.

    Virtualization options like VMware are temporary solutions to save HW/DC
    cooling costs, but these are still small savings compared to the IT
    Staffing costs which are typically 60-70% of any IT budget. IT staffing
    is directly tied to the number of OS instances being maintained so the
    "one bus App, one OS instance" platform days are in for some tough
    times in the next 12-24 months.

    As I sometimes like to say "the new dinosaurs are those developing
    distributed applications targeted at "one bus app, one OS instance
    platforms using hype of the day technologies."

    :-)

    >
    > p.s. I got caught by the OpenVMS relicensing issue the other day. As I
    > only had a VT terminal at hand I typed the values in by hand. No big
    > deal. I love command line interfaces as they can be much more
    > productive for experienced users.
    >


    And the lack of a useable CLI was always such a negative against Microsoft
    when enterprise companies were looking at options, that Microsoft finally
    saw the light and added a much improved CLI as part of Windows 2008
    (Powershell).

    A good CLI is critical to mission critical computing as batch jobs are
    a key component of how real work gets done behind the scenes.

    > I worked on a GUI replacement for a call centre application and the
    > reason was not productivity but ease of training. The experienced
    > users of the green screen application were phenomenally quick as was
    > the application. The GUI replacement was incredibly slow and
    > frustrating for the experienced users. At the end of the day, however,
    > the replacement remained because it took 3 months training to get up
    > to speed with the GUI app and a year with the green screen app. The
    > average employment duration of an operative had dropped from ten years
    > to three years, so a year of training was just too costly.
    >


    Not sure what you mean here as a PC or MAC or whatever GUI and/or
    browser front ends can be implemented on OpenVMS in the same way as
    any other OS.

    Anyway, I agree everyone needs to evaluate what tools they need for
    a specific opportunity, but imho, the times are changing.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  3. Re: PC Systems for sale

    > And so with Java on OpenVMS. Some Cust's will develop Java on Windows/
    > Linux but deploy (copy) on OpenVMS for added security and native
    > active-active clustering.


    In my day-to-day job working with Java I would unfortunately have a
    really hard time selling OpenVMS as a mission critical platform when
    there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of effort being made in
    keeping the version available on OpenVMS tracking Sun released
    versions.

    I have noted that after an initial period of being supported by major
    application server vendors the vast majority have dropped OpenVMS as a
    supported platform within the past five years.

    > Open source OS options will always have a place, but imho, are losing
    > steam right now as senior managers do not want their IT staff playing
    > in the weeds with low level bits-n-bytes OS stuff. They would prefer
    > these resources focus on working with their business units to help them
    > become more competitive. Given that the OS and associated training is
    > a small microism of the total IT budget, most senior Execs could not
    > care less what their IT OS strategy is.


    In my comments regarding open source I was really thinking about
    products that might fill the void that have been created by the
    dropping of development for OpenVMS by major vendors. While there are
    still licensed products being used for major components in a large web
    based business application (such as database and application server)
    it is also true that the development tool chain in every company I
    have worked for in the past ten years has included a significant
    number of open source components. No one wants to reinvent the wheel
    these days, and without these tools and libraries any operating system
    is going to suffer as a result.

    > While no one will argue with personal decisions you make that are best
    > suited for your specific conditions, you also need to realize that the
    > IT world is moving back to very centralized, very HA, very secure
    > environments. Server and DC consolidation projects are happening in
    > almost every med-large company today. The number 1 and 2 targets for
    > these server consolidation projects are x86 based Windows and to a
    > smaller degree, Linux environments running at 5-15% peak utilization
    > during "busy" parts of the day. This is a fact - not OS religion.


    Absolutely agree. I'm not sure what percentage of this kind of market
    runs windows however - I would imagine that it has never been a huge
    percentage. UNIX incarnations (whether it be AIX, Solaris, HPUX or
    Linux) have always been highly respected in the organisations I have
    worked in for their abilities to perform in HA environments.

    > As I sometimes like to say "the new dinosaurs are those developing
    > distributed applications targeted at "one bus app, one OS instance
    > platforms using hype of the day technologies."


    I've been developing software for a long time and cringe sometimes at
    the quality of tools that are passed off as suitable for use by a
    large development team. Equally, for every bad tool that is pushed
    there are alternatives. OpenVMS cannot compete in this area. There
    just isn't the breadth available.

    > Not sure what you mean here as a PC or MAC or whatever GUI and/or
    > browser front ends can be implemented on OpenVMS in the same way as
    > any other OS.


    I was probably venting my frustration that a perfectly good system has
    to be replaced because the market conditions have moved on. The
    existing system may not have been pretty but it was technically very
    impressive. Another part of the drive to replace the application was
    due to the use of languages such as COBOL that can no longer be
    sourced technically in significant and consistent numbers. It was also
    probably a rant about the current state of software development
    management. The term 'engineering' often leaves me shaking my head in
    disbelieve ('Cynical Old Contractor' syndrome I'm sure!)

    Let me add at the end of this post that I'm looking to be educated
    primarily and get my facts straight. It would be nice if those who are
    experts in OpenVMS could provide insights into how they see OpenVMS
    fitting into the modern data centre, development houses and offices
    without resorting to HP bashing.

    Whilst within a personal context there will always be a time and place
    to vent negative opinions about OpenVMS and HP I have been really
    surprised how much of it goes on within this news group. Linux has
    proved, if nothing else, that the worldwide community of software
    developers (and I include commercial organisations within this
    context) can change the operating systems pie chart. People like
    Alexey Chupahin (who is actively porting various projects to OpenVMS)
    are a breath of fresh air in re-igniting my enthusiam in OpenVMS. HP
    appear to have noticed him and are supporting his efforts with much
    needed hardware. If only there were many more like him...

    Mark.

  4. Re: PC Systems for sale Linux/XP Pro

    What's the maximum memory... Might be able to get ESX3i on 'em.
    What's the slot layout for PCI PCIe...
    Any ethernet on the motherboard and if so which chipset...

    Bill
    --
    Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and
    despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in
    computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com)

  5. Re: PC Systems for sale

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > Open source OS options will always have a place, but imho, are losing
    > steam right now


    That is not what I see.

    Linux is taking over enterprise IT.

    > as senior managers do not want their IT staff playing
    > in the weeds with low level bits-n-bytes OS stuff.


    Sounds as something people believed 10 years ago.

    Most Linux users are not customizing any code at all.

    > Given that the OS and associated training is
    > a small microism of the total IT budget, most senior Execs could not
    > care less what their IT OS strategy is.


    True. But:
    - running on the cheapest platform (x86-64)
    - having most apps available
    - having most skilled people available after Windows
    are interesting for them.

    > In addition, many senior exec's want a single throat to choke when
    > things get messed up.


    Companies like IBM, Oracle, SUN, Redhat are happy to provide a throat
    for $$$$.

    > While no one will argue with personal decisions you make that are best
    > suited for your specific conditions, you also need to realize that the
    > IT world is moving back to very centralized, very HA, very secure
    > environments. Server and DC consolidation projects are happening in
    > almost every med-large company today. The number 1 and 2 targets for
    > these server consolidation projects are x86 based Windows and to a
    > smaller degree, Linux environments running at 5-15% peak utilization
    > during "busy" parts of the day. This is a fact - not OS religion.


    That is true.

    But they are centralizing to fewer and bigger Linux and Windows
    boxes.

    > Virtualization options like VMware are temporary solutions to save HW/DC
    > cooling costs, but these are still small savings compared to the IT
    > Staffing costs which are typically 60-70% of any IT budget. IT staffing
    > is directly tied to the number of OS instances being maintained so the
    > "one bus App, one OS instance" platform days are in for some tough
    > times in the next 12-24 months.


    The premise is completely untrue. IT staffing is not tied to number
    of OS instances. IT staffing is tied to the requirement for manual
    intervention by the apps that are running.

    Arne

  6. Re: PC Systems for sale

    urbancamo wrote:
    >> And so with Java on OpenVMS. Some Cust's will develop Java on Windows/
    >> Linux but deploy (copy) on OpenVMS for added security and native
    >> active-active clustering.

    >
    > In my day-to-day job working with Java I would unfortunately have a
    > really hard time selling OpenVMS as a mission critical platform when
    > there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of effort being made in
    > keeping the version available on OpenVMS tracking Sun released
    > versions.


    The mission critical Java apps are rarely running on latest
    Java version anyway.

    > I have noted that after an initial period of being supported by major
    > application server vendors the vast majority have dropped OpenVMS as a
    > supported platform within the past five years.


    I believe JBoss would be the most obvious choice today.

    >> Open source OS options will always have a place, but imho, are losing
    >> steam right now as senior managers do not want their IT staff playing
    >> in the weeds with low level bits-n-bytes OS stuff. They would prefer
    >> these resources focus on working with their business units to help them
    >> become more competitive. Given that the OS and associated training is
    >> a small microism of the total IT budget, most senior Execs could not
    >> care less what their IT OS strategy is.

    >
    > In my comments regarding open source I was really thinking about
    > products that might fill the void that have been created by the
    > dropping of development for OpenVMS by major vendors. While there are
    > still licensed products being used for major components in a large web
    > based business application (such as database and application server)
    > it is also true that the development tool chain in every company I
    > have worked for in the past ten years has included a significant
    > number of open source components. No one wants to reinvent the wheel
    > these days, and without these tools and libraries any operating system
    > is going to suffer as a result.


    It is becoming increasingly difficult for commercial vendors of
    development tools. Free is becoming the de facto standard price
    level for such.

    > Whilst within a personal context there will always be a time and place
    > to vent negative opinions about OpenVMS and HP I have been really
    > surprised how much of it goes on within this news group. Linux has
    > proved, if nothing else, that the worldwide community of software
    > developers (and I include commercial organisations within this
    > context) can change the operating systems pie chart.


    Some people write code. Some people complain.

    Arne

  7. Re: PC Systems for sale

    In article <6lrlg0Fdcu60U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >
    >
    > So, tell me, if VT's are the way to go what will you give me for the
    > pile of 420's I still have in their original boxes?


    I never said VT's are the way to go. You must be studying under W.


  8. RE: PC Systems for sale

    In article <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED7606FAD@GVW1158 EXB.americas.hpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" writes:
    >
    > And so with Java on OpenVMS. Some Cust's will develop Java on Windows/
    > Linux but deploy (copy) on OpenVMS for added security and native
    > active-active clustering.
    >


    we do the opposite. Develop on VMS and deploy on everything.


  9. RE: PC Systems for sale

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: urbancamo [mailto:mark@wickensonline.co.uk]
    > Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 5:32 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: PC Systems for sale
    >


    [snip...]

    > > Not sure what you mean here as a PC or MAC or whatever GUI and/or
    > > browser front ends can be implemented on OpenVMS in the same way as
    > > any other OS.

    >
    > I was probably venting my frustration that a perfectly good system has
    > to be replaced because the market conditions have moved on. The
    > existing system may not have been pretty but it was technically very
    > impressive. Another part of the drive to replace the application was
    > due to the use of languages such as COBOL that can no longer be
    > sourced technically in significant and consistent numbers. It was also
    > probably a rant about the current state of software development
    > management. The term 'engineering' often leaves me shaking my head in
    > disbelieve ('Cynical Old Contractor' syndrome I'm sure!)
    >
    > Let me add at the end of this post that I'm looking to be educated
    > primarily and get my facts straight. It would be nice if those who are
    > experts in OpenVMS could provide insights into how they see OpenVMS
    > fitting into the modern data centre, development houses and offices
    > without resorting to HP bashing.
    >
    > Whilst within a personal context there will always be a time and place
    > to vent negative opinions about OpenVMS and HP I have been really
    > surprised how much of it goes on within this news group. Linux has
    > proved, if nothing else, that the worldwide community of software
    > developers (and I include commercial organisations within this
    > context) can change the operating systems pie chart. People like
    > Alexey Chupahin (who is actively porting various projects to OpenVMS)
    > are a breath of fresh air in re-igniting my enthusiam in OpenVMS. HP
    > appear to have noticed him and are supporting his efforts with much
    > needed hardware. If only there were many more like him...
    >
    > Mark.


    There is certainly nothing wrong with continuing to use existing 3GL's
    and other application technologies. J2EE and .Net will also have a
    place, but, like any OO based technologies, there are large learning
    curves and setup / migration / integration costs associated with these.

    Each company needs to evaluate what mix of current and new technologies
    they will implement going forward. And implementing totally new
    technologies should not be based on a "because everyone else is doing
    it" - that is a recipe for disaster.

    Having stated this, if a company wants to continue using OpenVMS
    development technologies while at the same time ease into the J2EE world,
    they can implement the OpenVMS based version of Distributed Netbeans.

    This is a means to integrate older and new technologies.

    "Distributed NetBeans for OpenVMS allows you to run the NetBeans IDE on
    your desktop system and develop applications on a remote OpenVMS Alpha
    or Integrity server system.

    Distributed NetBeans contains BASIC, C/C++, COBOL, FORTRAN, and PASCAL
    language and debugging support, and MMS, BASH, DCL, and EDT Keypad
    support."

    Reference:
    http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvm.../ips/netbeans/

    In addition, for those that want a UNIX-like environment running on
    OpenVMS, there is the GNV kit:
    http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openso...ource.html#gnv


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.



  10. Re: PC Systems for sale Linux/XP Pro

    3 PCI Slot and one PCI-E
    On Board NVIDIA Gigabit


    --
    David B Turner

    =============================================

    Island Computers US Corp
    PO Box 86
    Tybee GA 31328

    Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
    Email: dturner@islandco.com
    International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749
    Fax: 912 786 8505
    Web: www.islandco.com

    =============================================
    "Bill Pechter" wrote in message
    news:gddrsh$gmg$2@registered.motzarella.org...
    > What's the maximum memory... Might be able to get ESX3i on 'em.
    > What's the slot layout for PCI PCIe...
    > Any ethernet on the motherboard and if so which chipset...
    >
    > Bill
    > --
    > Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and
    > despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in
    > computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com)




  11. Re: PC Systems for sale Linux/XP Pro

    The system comes with 2GB upgradable to 4GB
    1 PCI-E 3 PCI

    --
    David B Turner

    =============================================

    Island Computers US Corp
    PO Box 86
    Tybee GA 31328

    Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
    Email: dturner@islandco.com
    International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749
    Fax: 912 786 8505
    Web: www.islandco.com

    =============================================
    "Bill Pechter" wrote in message
    news:gddrsh$gmg$2@registered.motzarella.org...
    > What's the maximum memory... Might be able to get ESX3i on 'em.
    > What's the slot layout for PCI PCIe...
    > Any ethernet on the motherboard and if so which chipset...
    >
    > Bill
    > --
    > Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and
    > despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in
    > computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com)




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