mounting USB Sandisk - VMS

This is a discussion on mounting USB Sandisk - VMS ; I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why? I see on ebay 16GB devices going for about $30. How reliable as storage can it be, alpha ...

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Thread: mounting USB Sandisk

  1. mounting USB Sandisk

    I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with
    /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why?

    I see on ebay 16GB devices going for about $30. How reliable
    as storage can it be, alpha particles aside?


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  2. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    newsp.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with
    > /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why?
    >

    There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the
    driver.

    DNDRIVER is only tested and qualified for the built in DVD drives
    in the 2660, 3600, 6600, and for vMdeia in these boxes and on Blades.
    Anything else you are on your own.

    > I see on ebay 16GB devices going for about $30. How reliable
    > as storage can it be, alpha particles aside?
    >
    >
    > --
    > PL/I for OpenVMS
    > www.kednos.com


    Forrest



  3. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:56:04 -0700, forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam
    wrote:

    >
    > "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    > newsp.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >> I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with
    >> /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why?
    >>

    > There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the
    > driver.


    Any plans to do so? BTW, what is the transfer rate on USB?

    >
    > DNDRIVER is only tested and qualified for the built in DVD drives
    > in the 2660, 3600, 6600, and for vMdeia in these boxes and on Blades.
    > Anything else you are on your own.
    >
    >> I see on ebay 16GB devices going for about $30. How reliable
    >> as storage can it be, alpha particles aside?
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> PL/I for OpenVMS
    >> www.kednos.com

    >
    > Forrest
    >
    >




    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  4. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    newsp.uiat9kr2hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:56:04 -0700, forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    >> newsp.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >>> I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with
    >>> /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why?
    >>>

    >> There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the
    >> driver.

    >
    > Any plans to do so? BTW, what is the transfer rate on USB?


    No to the MSCP question. The answer is it depends upon a
    number of factors. Theoretical is about 30Mbs a second best
    we have seen for mixed reads and writes is 7-9 Mbs. These
    tests were to SATA disks hooked to a USB to SATA adapter.
    I don't have any performance data for FLASH.

    Forrest



  5. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "Malcolm Dunnett" wrote in message
    news:z9WEk.673$yu1.405@newsfe04.iad...
    > forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote:
    >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    >> newsp.uiat9kr2hv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >>> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:56:04 -0700, forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    >>>> newsp.uh9n7fiyhv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >>>>> I initialized /gpt on a RX2620 runing 1H1 and mounted it with
    >>>>> /cluster, but it only gets mounted on that box. Why?
    >>>>>
    >>>> There are capabilities needed for MSCP serving that are not in the
    >>>> driver.
    >>> Any plans to do so? BTW, what is the transfer rate on USB?

    >>
    >> No to the MSCP question.

    >
    > Apparently shadowing doesn't work either. I tried shadowing a couple of
    > external 500GB drives (HP Personal Media drives). The first drive mounted
    > and worked ok, but the system crashed when I tried to add the second drive
    > to the shadowset(exception above ASTDEL). I also found that dismounting
    > the single member shadowset would crash the system.


    Same comment for shadowing there are feature it needs that we just
    don't provide and have no plans to provide. The goal for mass storage
    was be able to install off of a USB DVD or using vMedia. Be able to
    burn a USB DVD. That is anything else the works is outside of the
    goals set for Mass Storage. I have made changes to DNDRIVER that
    will keep it from crashing in the future.

    >
    > I've also noticed that the system seems to stall for about 10 minutes
    > early in the EFI boot sequence when the USB disks are attached (the system
    > is a zx6000 with EFI 1.10). Yes, I know none of this is supported.
    >

    Define early before you can invoke VMS_LOADER or after. If before I
    know what that is and it won't be fixed for zx6000, zx2000, or 2600. If
    after vms_loader is invoked I don't have an explaination but it should not
    be happening.

    > Other than that the USB disks seem to work fine as data disks. The
    > performance isn't great but it's adequate (I'm using them to archive some
    > database exports so speed isn't a big issue)


    Forrest



  6. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "Malcolm Dunnett" wrote in message
    news:hGYEk.11143$YN5.9036@newsfe03.iad...
    > forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote:
    >
    >>> I've also noticed that the system seems to stall for about 10 minutes
    >>> early in the EFI boot sequence when the USB disks are attached (the
    >>> system is a zx6000 with EFI 1.10). Yes, I know none of this is
    >>> supported.
    >>>

    >> Define early before you can invoke VMS_LOADER or after. If before I
    >> know what that is and it won't be fixed for zx6000, zx2000, or 2600.

    >
    > Before VMS_LOADER. It's right after the EFI banner shows up (before the
    > SCSI disks get discovered).


    That is the system firmware trying to figure out the disks it has a
    bunch of
    problems that have been fixed in later systems.



    Forrest



  7. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote:
    >
    > Same comment for shadowing there are feature it needs that we just
    > don't provide and have no plans to provide. The goal for mass storage
    > was be able to install off of a USB DVD or using vMedia. Be able to
    > burn a USB DVD. That is anything else the works is outside of the
    > goals set for Mass Storage. I have made changes to DNDRIVER that
    > will keep it from crashing in the future.


    Since you are currently keeping the code common to Alpha, is there any
    chance we will be seeing USB 2 speeds there for mass storage on Alpha?

    Disk EAGLE$DNA4:, device type Maxtor OneTouch , is online, mounted,
    file-oriented device, shareable, available to cluster, error logging is
    enabled.

    Error count 0 Operations completed 320391
    Owner process "" Owner UIC [VMS,SYSTEM]
    Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W
    Reference count 1 Default buffer size 512
    Total blocks 1465149167 Sectors per track 195
    Total cylinders 38335 Tracks per cylinder 196
    Logical Volume Size 1465149167 Expansion Size Limit 1465843712

    Volume label "ANHKMORPOCK" Relative volume number 0
    Cluster size 16 Transaction count 1
    Free blocks 1461841952 Maximum files allowed 16711679
    Extend quantity 5 Mount count 1
    Mount status System Cache name "_EAGLE$DQB0:XQPCACHE"
    Extent cache size 64 Max blks in extent cache 146184195
    File ID cache size 64 Blocks in extent cache 1568
    Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache 1730
    Volume owner UIC [VMS,SYSTEM] Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD

    Volume Status: ODS-5, subject to mount verification, write-back
    caching enabled, hard links enabled.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only


  8. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "John E. Malmberg" wrote in message
    news:0s4Fk.369282$yE1.58752@attbi_s21...
    > forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam wrote:
    > Since you are currently keeping the code common to Alpha, is there any
    > chance we will be seeing USB 2 speeds there for mass storage on Alpha?
    >


    Short answer is NO.

    The longer answer is that only the ES47 and GS1280 systems have
    supported
    USB controllers. A large number of these shipped with Lucent USS344 cards
    which are low and full speed only. The reset shipped with a Philips chip
    that
    had and EHCI controllers. Getting it to work was proving to be a real issue
    and we really did not have time to qualify two EHCI controllers for
    V8.3-1h1.
    So we dropped high speed support for Alpha.


    Forrest



  9. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    >
    > I certainly don't get full USB2 speeds with the HP Personal Media 500GB
    > drives on a zx6000. I can read/write these drives at about 6MBytes/second
    > (calculated by an image backup of 88Gbytes that took 4 hours).


    That is about as good as it is going to get. The theoretical bus speed
    is 48Mbs a second. But the best you in theory can do allowing for USB
    protocol overhead is 80% of that. So that gets you down to about 30
    Mbytes a second. Now there is the USB mass storage protocol which
    is by design not all that fast. It works like this.

    1) Send a description of the I/O you want to do wait for it to complete
    2) Pick up the status for that request
    3) Do the I/O read or write etc. Wait for that complete
    4) Pick up status
    5) Read overall I/O status for the request
    6) Pick up status of that read

    Now 1&2 , 3&4, and 5&6 are all one event as far as the driver is
    concerned
    but they are discrete events on the USB bus. There is an interrupt and a
    fork
    dispatch that has to happen for each and every one of the pairs of
    transactions.
    Also for lots of reasons every I/O has to have an extra buffer copy in the
    driver.

    We have seen better numbers but not with backup. There are tools the
    disk and I/O folks use that get much higher data rates than you can hope to
    get with BACKUP. Even with those 12Mb a sesond was about it for what
    we have today. Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    at 15 or so Mbytes a second.


    Forrest



  10. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    On 2008-10-02 18:40, "forrret.kenney@hp.com_nospam" wrote:

    > [...]
    >
    > [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    > at 15 or so Mbytes a second.


    That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    USB hard disks as well as card readers.

    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  11. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger
    writes:

    > > [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    > > at 15 or so Mbytes a second.

    >
    > That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    > USB hard disks as well as card readers.


    I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)


  12. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    On 2008-10-02 20:30, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:

    > In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger
    > writes:
    >
    >> > [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    >> > at 15 or so Mbytes a second.

    >>
    >> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    >> USB hard disks as well as card readers.

    >
    > I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    > Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)


    Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of
    punched paper ...

    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  13. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    Michael Unger wrote:
    > On 2008-10-02 20:30, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:
    >
    >> In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger
    >> writes:
    >>
    >>>> [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    >>>> at 15 or so Mbytes a second.
    >>> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    >>> USB hard disks as well as card readers.

    >> I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    >> Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)

    >
    > Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of
    > punched paper ...
    >


    Well, some of us old farts remember cards! If I excavated deeply enough
    in my junk heap, I might even find a registration gauge!




  14. Re: mounting USB Sandisk


    "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply"
    schreef in bericht news:gc3404$42g$1@online.de...
    > In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger
    > writes:
    >
    >> > [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things
    >> > peaking
    >> > at 15 or so Mbytes a second.

    >>
    >> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    >> USB hard disks as well as card readers.

    >
    > I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    > Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)
    >

    Phillips, I had to read that twice before understanding you were referring
    to a CR11 :-)



  15. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    On 2008-10-02 21:21, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote:

    > Michael Unger wrote:
    >> [...]
    >>
    >> Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of
    >> punched paper ...

    >
    > Well, some of us old farts remember cards! [...]


    I still have a lot -- excellent as a bookmark: very thin, rather robust,
    and you can even write remarks onto them ...

    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.

  16. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    In article ,
    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >Michael Unger wrote:
    >> On 2008-10-02 20:30, "Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply" wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article <6kkfbiF89p6oU1@mid.individual.net>, Michael Unger
    >>> writes:
    >>>
    >>>>> [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    >>>>> at 15 or so Mbytes a second.
    >>>> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    >>>> USB hard disks as well as card readers.
    >>> I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    >>> Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)

    >>
    >> Well -- memory "cards" based on Flash memory rather than on "cards" of
    >> punched paper ...
    >>

    >
    >Well, some of us old farts remember cards! If I excavated deeply enough
    >in my junk heap, I might even find a registration gauge!
    >
    >
    >


    Here you go a USB connected Documation Card Reader Interface

    http://www.quarterbyte.com/cardread.zip

    Here's one at the local Vintage Computer Festival
    http://www.vintage.org/pictures/LARG...%20Knittel.JPG

    Bill
    --
    --
    Be comforted that in the face of all erridity and disallusionment, and
    despite the changing fortunes of time, there is always a big future in
    computer maintainance. --Deteriorata (pechter-at-gmail-dot-com)

  17. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    "Michael Unger" wrote in message
    news:6km4akF8a9ubU1@mid.individual.net...
    >
    > and you can even write remarks onto them ...
    >



    Do you write in binary or punch holes in them


  18. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
    > [snip]
    > Other than that the USB disks seem to work fine as data disks. The
    > performance isn't great but it's adequate (I'm using them to archive
    > some database exports so speed isn't a big issue)


    Well, USB was never intended to compete with Infiniband. Flash memory is
    really not suitable for write-intensive situations, either. It's write
    few, read many by design, AFAIK.

    D.J.D.

  19. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    > >>>>> [...] Even in the PC world for USB 2.0 disks I see things peaking
    > >>>>> at 15 or so Mbytes a second.
    > >>>> That's consistant with my own observations (Win2k SP4, WinXP SP2) -- for
    > >>>> USB hard disks as well as card readers.
    > >>> I didn't know any OS supported card readers anymore---much less at 15
    > >>> Mb/s. Let's see, that would be about 25 million cards per second! :-)


    I got it wrong by a factor of 1000; it's 25 thousand cards per second.
    Still pretty fast, though! :-)


  20. Re: mounting USB Sandisk

    On 2008-10-04 01:07, "Steven Underwood" wrote:

    > "Michael Unger" wrote in message
    > news:6km4akF8a9ubU1@mid.individual.net...
    >>
    >> and you can even write remarks onto them ...

    >
    > Do you write in binary or punch holes in them


    I'm usually writing glyphs corresponding to the US-ASCII or ISO-8859-1
    character set onto the cards (backside), and in most of the cases more
    than 80 of them onto a single card ...

    Michael

    --
    Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers.
    My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid.


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