New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far - VMS

This is a discussion on New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far - VMS ; On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:02:10 -0700, Craig A. Berry wrote: > Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally > want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed > over the web. > ...

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Thread: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

  1. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:02:10 -0700, Craig A. Berry
    wrote:

    > Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally
    > want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed
    > over the web.
    >


    You don't need a browser for that, but it is certainly a bit easier to use.


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  2. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    Craig A. Berry wrote:
    >
    >
    > Rich Jordan wrote:
    >> On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
    >> Koehler) wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article , "Tom
    >>> Linden" writes:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean
    >>>> who really gives a tinkers damn?

    >
    > Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally
    > want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed
    > over the web.


    For patches available without login, I use FETCH_HTTP
    running in batch.

    For other pathes and kits, I simply (and it's *realy* simple)
    use my PC as the "middleware". Download to my PC and FTP over
    to the VMS *server*...

    There is no professional reason today to try to run a
    browser directly on VMS. As an hobbyist it could make a nice
    experiment, but that's something else.

    JF Mezai wrote :

    > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for
    > an OS to survive today.


    You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most
    successfull OS'es today. Does it have a browser ? Or any
    other "desktop" tools ?


  3. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    In article ,
    Jan-Erik Söderholm writes:
    > JF Mezai wrote :
    >
    > > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for
    > > an OS to survive today.

    >
    > You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most
    > successfull OS'es today. Does it have a browser ? Or any
    > other "desktop" tools ?


    IBM has a total package that includes desktop. Oh wait, so does HP.
    But we all know what the people here think of HP's desktop solution. :-)

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  4. Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    In article , "Tom Linden" writes:
    >
    > Digital years ago stopped supporting VMS on the desktop and trying to
    > deploy
    > it in that manner is like swimming upstream. There is so much that is
    > missing,
    > hell I can't even get a decent version of emacs. What about brower plugins,
    > spreadsheets, ...?


    So why do you bother following c.o.v and trying to sell PL/I to the
    VMS market?


  5. Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    On Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:29:26 -0700, Bob Koehler
    wrote:

    > In article , "Tom Linden"
    > writes:
    >>
    >> Digital years ago stopped supporting VMS on the desktop and trying to
    >> deploy
    >> it in that manner is like swimming upstream. There is so much that is
    >> missing,
    >> hell I can't even get a decent version of emacs. What about brower
    >> plugins,
    >> spreadsheets, ...?

    >
    > So why do you bother following c.o.v and trying to sell PL/I to the
    > VMS market?
    >

    Your question seems to be a bit of a non-sequitur, we were talking about
    the desktop concept, but I wil try an answer anyway.

    Because it is the best programming language available on VMS and we still
    have a customer base to support. As for COV there are a few interesting
    technical discussions


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  6. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    As an outspoken critic of HP's handling of VMS, I am flaberghasted to
    see people complain about HP updating Mozilla on VMS with a newer
    version (Seamonkey is just a new version of Mozilla that sports a new
    name, just like Mozilla was an upgrade from Netscape with better HTML
    rendering and more memory leaks).

    EVERYONE should welcome this effort. We don't have very many poositive
    signs from HP about VMS, but this would be one. And the rumour that
    Firefox is still in the works is also great.

    This is not just about the end application, but also the port of all the
    middleware make it possible to port new applications to VMS. For
    instance, having a more recent GTK stack on VMS would allow many more
    applications to be ported to VMS (Firefox requires a more recent version
    of GTK than had been ported for Mozilla).

    Consider useful tools such as Wireshark ethernet tracer which requires a
    modern GTK. A port is impossible to even consider unless the right GTK
    version is available on VMS.


  7. Re: OT: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    Tom Linden wrote:

    > Because it is the best programming language available on VMS and we still
    > have a customer base to support. As for COV there are a few interesting
    > technical discussions



    STILL is the keyword here. It provides the image that you exepct your
    market to go away and diminish.

    Compare this with othert operating systems where the owner and the ISVs
    have expectations that their customer base will grow and want to expand
    the reach of that OS to new markets.

    Linux was able to get a substantial amount of desktop software. There is
    no reason why VMS couldn't have done the same. Getting 1% of the desktop
    market is still a HUGE market that is bigger than what VMS has left as a
    niche and obscure backroom OS.

    The porting of Firefox and GTK would send a good signal that VMS is able
    to run modern software, not just old legacy stuff. And that is a
    positive step that could be used if VMS were to be marketed.

  8. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far



    Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    > Craig A. Berry wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> Rich Jordan wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sep 30, 7:31 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
    >>> Koehler) wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In article , "Tom
    >>>> Linden" writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> Why on earth would VMS engr spend the resources to do this, I mean
    >>>>> who really gives a tinkers damn?

    >>
    >>
    >> Anybody who actually uses their VMS systems, and thus might occasionally
    >> want patches or new software, both of which are primarily distributed
    >> over the web.

    >
    >
    > For patches available without login, I use FETCH_HTTP
    > running in batch.
    >
    > For other pathes and kits, I simply (and it's *realy* simple)
    > use my PC as the "middleware". Download to my PC and FTP over
    > to the VMS *server*...
    >
    > There is no professional reason today to try to run a
    > browser directly on VMS. As an hobbyist it could make a nice
    > experiment, but that's something else.


    I know how to ftp things directly from ITRC, and I know how to download
    things to another platform and then move the files over to a VMS system,
    and when building from source I know how to run autoconf, rsync, and
    various other things that are missing on VMS elsewhere and move the
    results to the VMS system, but actually preferring these stone age
    methods when something better is available is hardly the hallmark of a
    professional. Having a browser to research and download patches to the
    system on which they will be applied is essential. It's still just
    bronze age and a real automated patch manager like every other modern OS
    has would be much better. But it's an important minimal baseline piece
    of software, and it's a good thing it's being updated.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised that good news is bad news in this
    so-called newsgroup, but even JF is being uncharacteristically positive
    -- what's wrong with you people?

  9. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    JF Mezei wrote:

    > What if you have an important remaining customer who has stated that
    > they require GTK and some other middleware ?


    Does this have anything with reality to do ?
    Or was it just something dreamed up ?

    I support VMS systems at two pretty large companies, and
    I've never seen that need.

    Of course Richard is correct in that VMS is dead and has
    been dead on the desktop for the last 10 years at least.
    Trying to get (back?) to the desktop *now* is totaly wasted.

    > Porting a browser is the
    > perfect project to not only port that middleware to VMS, but also to
    > test it by compiling a browser with it before you hand it over to the
    > customer.


    That might be correct in a way, but why not do it on some
    usable software ?

    > Just because YOU don't see a need for that software doesn't mean that
    > there isn't a business need for it.


    There just isn't, no matter what Righard or anyone else says.


    > Funny, HP has the proprietary port of Apache for VMS, there is the OSU
    > web server as well as WASD. I believe that even IBM has some web serving
    > middleware available on VMS. And web serving is now an important part
    > of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients
    > from the server.


    A web/http *server* is a logical part of any "server" platform today.
    Bot not a browsers which this was all about...


  10. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    JF Mezei wrote:

    > I would say that having the adobe PDF reader (or a fully featured
    > equivalent) on VMS would quite important. (think: read VMS documentation
    > on-line).


    Funny, I've read VMS docs on-line for over 10 years now.

    > Consider that to develop on VMS, you want to be using VMS. If you're on
    > VMS, having today's basic tools is pretty useful. A web browser allows
    > you to get to docs, search for answers for some problem you are having,
    > download patches etc etc without having to move to some other platform.


    Of course one doesn't have to "move" to another platform, I simply
    switch (Alt-tab) windows on the platform I'm working from, my
    laptop (most of the time)...

  11. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb:

    >
    > Funny, I've read VMS docs on-line for over 10 years now.
    >

    (snip)
    >
    > Of course one doesn't have to "move" to another platform, I simply
    > switch (Alt-tab) windows on the platform I'm working from, my
    > laptop (most of the time)...


    If you cripple VMS so it can't stand on its own feet,
    you will always have to use two platforms to administer
    and run VMS. Given that 99% of people's IT activity
    is word processing, emailing and web browsing,
    the tendency was, is, and will be to move the remaining
    1% off VMS to their main platform. Bad luck for VMS (and you).


  12. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb:

    >
    > I support VMS systems at two pretty large companies,


    two out of 400000 is not very significant.

    > and I've never seen that need.


    Maybe the need follows the availability.
    If people know the vendor refuses to sell,
    they will not ask for it.


  13. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Richard Maher schrieb:
    >
    > Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuilder)! I
    > love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Java Applets!
    > (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Application
    > Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of laptops,
    > PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the users!*


    Then why do you bother with VMS at all?


  14. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb:
    >
    >>
    >> Funny, I've read VMS docs on-line for over 10 years now.
    >>

    > (snip)
    >>
    >> Of course one doesn't have to "move" to another platform, I simply
    >> switch (Alt-tab) windows on the platform I'm working from, my
    >> laptop (most of the time)...

    >
    > If you cripple VMS so it can't stand on its own feet,


    Of course it can, doing what it is best at.

    > you will always have to use two platforms to administer
    > and run VMS.


    I only use *one* platform to manage my VMS system, my laptop.

    > Given that 99% of people's IT activity
    > is word processing, emailing and web browsing,
    > the tendency was, is, and will be to move the remaining
    > 1% off VMS to their main platform.


    Some might think so. Now, the main platform used for those
    99% of activity isn't particulary good on the remaining 1%.
    And those 1% is enough for me... :-)

    Jan-Erik.

  15. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Richard Maher schrieb:
    >>
    >> Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuilder)! I
    >> love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Java
    >> Applets!
    >> (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Application
    >> Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of
    >> laptops,
    >> PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the users!*

    >
    > Then why do you bother with VMS at all?
    >


    You're joking, right ?

  16. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb:
    >>
    >> JF Mezai wrote :
    >>
    >> > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for
    >> > an OS to survive today.

    >>
    >> You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most
    >> successfull OS'es today.

    >
    > Times they are a changing ...
    > About 20 years ago you would have been burnt on the stake
    > for that statement (or prediction).
    > At that time, VMSlings kept telling me how MVS
    > (that's what z/OS was called back then) sucks
    > and how it would go away soon, together with
    > mainframes and IBM altogether.
    > And that I should get one of those cool
    > VAXstations running VMS desktop instead.
    > Gives me a good laugh in hindsight.
    >
    >> Does it have a browser ? Or any
    >> other "desktop" tools ?

    >
    > z/OS (or MVS) is a lot older than VMS and Unix
    > and does not quite play in the same ballpark.
    > By its very nature it never was a great
    > "graphics" OS.
    > Although in the 1980s people
    > used it e.g. for stuff like CATIA together with
    > expensive graphics peripherals, due to its horsepower.
    > These apps went away quickly when the RS/6000 came to market.
    > So you won't expect a browser on MVS anyway,
    > although it got a C compiler, TCP/IP and X11 client around 1991.
    > BTW, it's native "GUI" (sort of) is called ISPF
    > (works similar as "curses" based apps elsewhere),
    > and it is still part of the system, AFAIK.


    Sure is. I've done a lot of development on MVS since 20+ years
    back. The last assignments was with CWS (CICS Web Server) writing
    CGI server applications (COBOL) with DB/2 database backend. All
    running under CICS/MVS.

    And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything
    graphical.

    My point was that all this have been done using 3270 emulators
    running on the "main desktop OS" for ages.


  17. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb:

    >
    > Sure is. I've done a lot of development on MVS since 20+ years
    > back. The last assignments was with CWS (CICS Web Server) writing
    > CGI server applications (COBOL) with DB/2 database backend. All
    > running under CICS/MVS.
    >
    > And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything
    > graphical.


    Well, it's a UI going far beyond a plain command line.
    At its time, i.e. before X was invented, it was quite
    remarkable for what you can do with 24x80 character screens,
    comprising fileing, editing, developing, mailing,
    sort of an integrated desktop like CDE.

    > My point was that all this have been done using 3270 emulators
    > running on the "main desktop OS" for ages.


    But one never expected anything more than JCL processing and 3270 screens.
    So there was no loss by replacing the bulky 3270 monitor
    by, say, a shiny new RS/6000 or a perfectly quiet X-terminal
    running x3270 terminal emulation windows.



  18. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    Michael Kraemer wrote:

    >> And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything
    >> graphical.

    >
    > Well, it's a UI going far beyond a plain command line.
    > At its time, i.e. before X was invented, it was quite
    > remarkable for what you can do with 24x80 character screens,
    > comprising fileing, editing, developing, mailing,
    > sort of an integrated desktop like CDE.


    You've obviously never used ALL-IN-1. ALL-IN-1 was far more powerful
    than SPF/ISPF but both were at roughlt the same level of character cell
    menus. And I don't recall SPF having email. It may have been added
    later on though.

    Both offerend a extensive "shell" and scripting language to design menus
    and manage forms. But A1 was more powerful.

    SPF did come out a few years before All-In-1.

    One of the acronyms for SPF was "System Productivity Facility". I think
    there was another one before. And I can't remember what the meaning
    became when they added the "I".

  19. Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >
    >>> And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything
    >>> graphical.

    >> Well, it's a UI going far beyond a plain command line.
    >> At its time, i.e. before X was invented, it was quite
    >> remarkable for what you can do with 24x80 character screens,
    >> comprising fileing, editing, developing, mailing,
    >> sort of an integrated desktop like CDE.

    >
    > You've obviously never used ALL-IN-1. ALL-IN-1 was far more powerful
    > than SPF/ISPF but both were at roughlt the same level of character cell
    > menus. And I don't recall SPF having email. It may have been added
    > later on though.
    >
    > Both offerend a extensive "shell" and scripting language to design menus
    > and manage forms. But A1 was more powerful.
    >
    > SPF did come out a few years before All-In-1.
    >
    > One of the acronyms for SPF was "System Productivity Facility". I think
    > there was another one before. And I can't remember what the meaning
    > became when they added the "I".


    "Interactive" SPF.
    Do not ask me in what way non-I SPF was non-interactive... :-)

  20. Re: Elvis is dead - get over it!

    Hi Michael,

    > Then why do you bother with VMS at all?


    'cos it's the best server on the planet you ****ing idiot!

    If only the incompetent, self-serving, vms-appologists at HP would open the
    flood-gates and let the users *INTEGRATE* their VMS apps with this
    feature-rich, cheap, ubiquitous, full-function client platform(s) then maybe
    we might get somewhere?

    Regards Richard Maher

    "Michael Kraemer" wrote in message
    news:gc9spk$1lc$00$1@news.t-online.com...
    > Richard Maher schrieb:
    > >
    > > Personally, I love FireFox and Firebug! I love Flex (and FlexBuilder)! I
    > > love .NET (a bit less)! Silverlight is getting better! I love Java

    Applets!
    > > (and the new 1.6_10 jnlp deployment options) I love Chrome's Application
    > > Launch shortcuts! I love HTML/DOM/Javascript! I love the price of

    laptops,
    > > PCs and Macs! I have no problem with Windows! *And so do the users!*

    >
    > Then why do you bother with VMS at all?
    >




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