We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. - VMS

This is a discussion on We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. - VMS ; On 23 Sep 2008 at 19:14, Main, Kerry wrote: > Usually, in any type of critical Application, moving to something as > different as adding another OS between the OS / App and the HW requires > an entire new ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 35 of 35

Thread: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

  1. RE: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    On 23 Sep 2008 at 19:14, Main, Kerry wrote:
    > Usually, in any type of critical Application, moving to something as
    > different as adding another OS between the OS / App and the HW requires
    > an entire new re-certification, so that argument is a bit of a wash.


    Not in my experience. My CHARON clients have passed FDA and FAA "recirts" with just a
    few pieces of paper.

    > In addition, moving to a current version of OpenVMS natively allows one
    > to use some of the newer features (Java, encryption, third party support
    > like MQ Series + others etc) to integrate existing app code with other
    > applications currently in use in the Cust environment.


    Absolutely true. However, many of the clients I see are quite happy using the features
    they already have, and need no more.

    BTW -- VAX V7.3 is still "current", since that's the last version.

    > As you mentioned, if there are apps that cannot be translated or ported,
    > then something like CHARON is an option to explore. However, you do need
    > to also consider whether the App/DB etc will be supported by the vendor
    > in a CHARON environment (it may, but need to confirm).


    Oracle, HP, Process Software, and many others have no problem. Yes, there are a few
    holdouts...

    [Shameless Plug Alert(tm) -- I'm a CHARON reseller.]

    --Stan Quayle
    Quayle Consulting Inc.

    ----------
    Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
    8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
    stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
    "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"



  2. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > In addition, moving to a current version of OpenVMS natively allows one
    > to use some of the newer features (Java, encryption, third party support
    > like MQ Series + others etc) to integrate existing app code with other
    > applications currently in use in the Cust environment.


    The above assumes that the owner has a policy of still developping that
    app. Doing a port and retain it on VAX is a good indication that the
    owner has no long term intentions with that VMS based app and just wants
    to keep it running as is until it is fully replaced on a modern platform.

    Also, consider the possibility that this app relies on VAX middleware
    that was not ported to Alpha (and then perhaps ported to Alpha but not
    to that IA64 thing).

  3. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message
    news:48D90961.25918.20736CED@infovax.stanq.com...
    > On 21 Sep 2008 at 19:45, Steven Underwood wrote:
    >> I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
    >> 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
    >> solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could
    >> not
    >> realistically even propose the solution.

    >
    > I hear that fairly often. But you are comparing a brand new box with a
    > used one. Did
    > you compare the 7630 with CHARON-VAX 6620? Nearly the same performance,
    > and markedly
    > cheaper than the 6630 emulator.
    >


    6630 was quoted. No other option was even presented and I mentioned during
    the original contact that the current machine was not even using 1 CPU most
    of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option as well.

    What I would really like is to take one of the 2 Alpha's we currently own
    and work on porting the home built apps (cobol) over to it, but I'm not
    given that kind of time to work on this system either. The CHARON solution
    would have allowed our reporting tool (APTUser) to continue running without
    changing that to something else, since it is only supported as far as
    providing updated annual licenses at this point.


  4. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    "Steven Underwood" wrote in message
    news:u5hCk.31579$rV4.17785@newsfe03.iad...
    > "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message
    > news:48D90961.25918.20736CED@infovax.stanq.com...
    >> On 21 Sep 2008 at 19:45, Steven Underwood wrote:
    >>> I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
    >>> 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
    >>> solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could
    >>> not
    >>> realistically even propose the solution.

    >>
    >> I hear that fairly often. But you are comparing a brand new box with a
    >> used one. Did
    >> you compare the 7630 with CHARON-VAX 6620? Nearly the same performance,
    >> and markedly
    >> cheaper than the 6630 emulator.
    >>

    >
    > 6630 was quoted. No other option was even presented and I mentioned during
    > the original contact that the current machine was not even using 1 CPU
    > most of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option as well.
    >
    > What I would really like is to take one of the 2 Alpha's we currently own
    > and work on porting the home built apps (cobol) over to it, but I'm not
    > given that kind of time to work on this system either. The CHARON
    > solution would have allowed our reporting tool (APTUser) to continue
    > running without changing that to something else, since it is only
    > supported as far as providing updated annual licenses at this point.


    Correction... the PDF provided was for the 6630, but I finally found the
    quote was for the 6610 which still had higher VUP rating (120>95) over the
    existing system.


  5. RE: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:31 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > In addition, moving to a current version of OpenVMS natively allows

    > one
    > > to use some of the newer features (Java, encryption, third party

    > support
    > > like MQ Series + others etc) to integrate existing app code with

    > other
    > > applications currently in use in the Cust environment.

    >
    > The above assumes that the owner has a policy of still developping that
    > app. Doing a port and retain it on VAX is a good indication that the
    > owner has no long term intentions with that VMS based app and just
    > wants
    > to keep it running as is until it is fully replaced on a modern
    > platform.
    >


    Of course. If it is not broke and it works reliably, then why fix it?

    Same applies to any application running on 15+ year old HW. Heck,
    there are manufacturing App's still running on NT4 and Solaris 7/8
    era systems.

    > Also, consider the possibility that this app relies on VAX middleware
    > that was not ported to Alpha (and then perhaps ported to Alpha but not
    > to that IA64 thing).


    There are translator options, but if it's like most middleware, then you
    might be able to run the middle tier on Alpha and the back end on IA64.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  6. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    In article ,
    "Steven Underwood" writes:
    > "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message
    > news:48D90961.25918.20736CED@infovax.stanq.com...
    >> On 21 Sep 2008 at 19:45, Steven Underwood wrote:
    >>> I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
    >>> 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
    >>> solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could
    >>> not
    >>> realistically even propose the solution.

    >>
    >> I hear that fairly often. But you are comparing a brand new box with a
    >> used one. Did
    >> you compare the 7630 with CHARON-VAX 6620? Nearly the same performance,
    >> and markedly
    >> cheaper than the 6630 emulator.
    >>

    >
    > 6630 was quoted. No other option was even presented and I mentioned during
    > the original contact that the current machine was not even using 1 CPU most
    > of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option as well.
    >
    > What I would really like is to take one of the 2 Alpha's we currently own
    > and work on porting the home built apps (cobol) over to it, but I'm not
    > given that kind of time to work on this system either.


    If your "powers that be" decide to consider this option and you want
    some help, I was a very good COBOL programmer back in the good ole
    days. And I have both VAX and Alpha VMS systems available to me.
    And, as a final clincher, I do COBOL more for fun than work today so
    I could be had pretty cheap compared to the usual contractor rates. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  7. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:

    > And, as a final clincher, I do COBOL more for fun than work today so


    COBOL for fun ? Is that some sadomasochism trip ? :-) :-) :-)

    Or are you thinking of you being handcuffed and bound, and your wife
    orders you to perform THIS through THAT until wife_is_satisfied. ? Does
    your wife tell you that she likes your big working storage ?

    Does she prefer a PIC XXX. or PIC XXXX. ?

  8. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    "Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message
    news:6k1ehfF5isepU1@mid.individual.net...
    > In article ,
    > "Steven Underwood" writes:
    >> "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message
    >> news:48D90961.25918.20736CED@infovax.stanq.com...
    >>> On 21 Sep 2008 at 19:45, Steven Underwood wrote:
    >>>> I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
    >>>> 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
    >>>> solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I
    >>>> could
    >>>> not
    >>>> realistically even propose the solution.
    >>>
    >>> I hear that fairly often. But you are comparing a brand new box with a
    >>> used one. Did
    >>> you compare the 7630 with CHARON-VAX 6620? Nearly the same performance,
    >>> and markedly
    >>> cheaper than the 6630 emulator.
    >>>

    >>
    >> 6630 was quoted. No other option was even presented and I mentioned
    >> during
    >> the original contact that the current machine was not even using 1 CPU
    >> most
    >> of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option as well.
    >>
    >> What I would really like is to take one of the 2 Alpha's we currently own
    >> and work on porting the home built apps (cobol) over to it, but I'm not
    >> given that kind of time to work on this system either.

    >
    > If your "powers that be" decide to consider this option and you want
    > some help, I was a very good COBOL programmer back in the good ole
    > days. And I have both VAX and Alpha VMS systems available to me.
    > And, as a final clincher, I do COBOL more for fun than work today so
    > I could be had pretty cheap compared to the usual contractor rates. :-)
    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    > billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include



    I have forwarded this message to my work address if that happens.


  9. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    On 23 Sep 2008 at 21:54, Steven Underwood wrote:
    > 6610 [sq - corrected] was quoted. No other option was even presented and I
    > mentioned during the original contact that the current machine was not even
    > using 1 CPU most of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option
    > as well.


    Choosing the correct CHARON product version requires a deep understanding of the current
    application. The 6610 is only one of nine different versions of the emulator.

    As a CHARON VAR, part of my "Value Add" is to determine the correct version. If it's not
    clear what product version is the correct one, I stage a proof-of-concept. That usually
    confirms what amount of memory and CPU performance is required. That information then
    helps determine the product version.

    Summarizing the SPD's (which are posted publically), the product matrix is like this:

    Product Memory
    XM 128 k
    XM+ 128 k
    XK+ 256 k
    XL 512 k
    XL+ 512 k
    6610+ 1024 k
    6620+ 2048 k (3 GB on 64-bit Windows)

    The Plus feature makes integer operations 4x faster (not officially guaranteed, but it
    works out that way). I have clients claiming that they're getting 100 or more VUP's with
    Plus on the right hardware..

    Except for Plus, the number of VAX instructions instructions per wall-clock second is
    about the same. The 66x0 family is a little faster on some things. And if you choose to
    emulate a MicroVAX II (in the Xx family), you'll lose some instructions which will then
    be performed in the emulated microcode. [Yes, it emulates that, too.]

    --Stan Quayle
    Quayle Consulting Inc.

    ----------
    Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
    8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
    stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
    "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"



  10. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote in message
    news:48DD08E2.23661.30117B8D@infovax.stanq.com...
    > On 23 Sep 2008 at 21:54, Steven Underwood wrote:
    >> 6610 [sq - corrected] was quoted. No other option was even presented and
    >> I
    >> mentioned during the original contact that the current machine was not
    >> even
    >> using 1 CPU most of the time so I should have thought about a 6610 option
    >> as well.

    >
    > Choosing the correct CHARON product version requires a deep understanding
    > of the current
    > application. The 6610 is only one of nine different versions of the
    > emulator.
    >
    > As a CHARON VAR, part of my "Value Add" is to determine the correct
    > version. If it's not
    > clear what product version is the correct one, I stage a proof-of-concept.
    > That usually
    > confirms what amount of memory and CPU performance is required. That
    > information then
    > helps determine the product version.
    >
    > Summarizing the SPD's (which are posted publically), the product matrix is
    > like this:
    >
    > Product Memory
    > XM 128 k
    > XM+ 128 k
    > XK+ 256 k
    > XL 512 k
    > XL+ 512 k
    > 6610+ 1024 k
    > 6620+ 2048 k (3 GB on 64-bit Windows)
    >
    > The Plus feature makes integer operations 4x faster (not officially
    > guaranteed, but it
    > works out that way). I have clients claiming that they're getting 100 or
    > more VUP's with
    > Plus on the right hardware..
    >
    > Except for Plus, the number of VAX instructions instructions per
    > wall-clock second is
    > about the same. The 66x0 family is a little faster on some things. And
    > if you choose to
    > emulate a MicroVAX II (in the Xx family), you'll lose some instructions
    > which will then
    > be performed in the emulated microcode. [Yes, it emulates that, too.]
    >
    > --Stan Quayle
    > Quayle Consulting Inc.
    >
    > ----------
    > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
    > 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
    > stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
    > "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"
    >
    >


    THe VAR that contacted me after I started at sri had a large template that I
    completed with the current configuration information. That was how they
    determined the quote... nothing more was done, but then I was not all that
    interested after that original $125K quote either.


  11. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    Neil Rieck wrote:
    >
    > <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>


    It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the
    price is within our means.

    For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel.

    For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.`

    D.J.D.

  12. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    Steven Underwood wrote:
    > "Neil Rieck" wrote in message
    > news:9d3d0a4f-04f1-4e39-b969-eacae1ce5af5@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
    > <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
    >
    > It turns out that current out-of-pocket costs determined all of the
    > recent decisions made by employer. No consideration was given to other
    > metrics like TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). That is how we ended up
    > moving a mission-critical VAX/VMS application from “a dual host
    > VAX-4300 cluster with 20 spindles on four DSSI busses” to “a platform
    > consisting of two DL380 chassis and one full MSA chassis” even though
    > we still have the source code.
    >
    > The new OS is Windows Server 2003 and VAX emulation is done with
    > CHARON. The whole thing works so you cannot blame MS, or HP, or the
    > CHARON product, but only time will tell if this PC solution will
    > outlast the VAX it replaced.
    >
    >
    > I looked into Charon APR-2007 as an option to purchasing a refurb VAX
    > 7000-630 to match our running system for DR. The quote for the Charon
    > solution was ~10x the price for the VAX. It was so much higher, I could
    > not realistically even propose the solution.
    >
    > As it turned out, the DR system was not purchased either as "we are
    > going to start working of a replacement platform very shortly". Of
    > course that has not happened either.


    We recently opened our own CHARON-VAX and CHARON-AXP sales offices in
    the USA (Raleigh, NC) and Far East (HongKong) if you want to get a
    'second opinion' :-)
    You can find our contact information on www.stromasys.com


    Regards,

    Robert Boers
    CEO
    Stromasys SA, Geneva, Switzerland
    (Formerly known as Software Resources International SA)
    We produce cross-platform virtualization products under the brand name
    CHARON.

  13. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    In article <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net>,
    David J Dachtera writes:
    > Neil Rieck wrote:
    >>
    >> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>

    >
    > It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the
    > price is within our means.
    >
    > For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel.
    >
    > For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.`


    Don't see how. There is always SIMH which cost nothing (assuming you
    already own a PC or something). And even real hardware. I have acquired
    a lot of VMS capable hardware for nothing. I doubt I have more than
    a couple thousand dollars, spread out over about 18 years, invested
    in all my PDP-11 and VAX/Alpha hardware. Probably the biggest single
    investment was renting a truck, buying gas and using a day to go pick
    up 5 PDP-11/44's, a VAX and a bunch of other cool stuff.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  14. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    > In article <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net>,
    > David J Dachtera writes:
    > > Neil Rieck wrote:
    > >>
    > >> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>

    > >
    > > It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the
    > > price is within our means.
    > >
    > > For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel.
    > >
    > > For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.`

    >
    > Don't see how. There is always SIMH which cost nothing (assuming you
    > already own a PC or something). And even real hardware. I have acquired
    > a lot of VMS capable hardware for nothing. I doubt I have more than
    > a couple thousand dollars, spread out over about 18 years, invested
    > in all my PDP-11 and VAX/Alpha hardware. Probably the biggest single
    > investment was renting a truck, buying gas and using a day to go pick
    > up 5 PDP-11/44's, a VAX and a bunch of other cool stuff.


    I also have acquired MicroVAX gear for the cost of the trip to go get
    it. However, this is the exception and not the rule. Even when I've put
    gear up on eBay for $1.00 plus the cost of shipping, I find very few who
    can even afford that.

    SIMH is fine for what it is. However, finding SE SCSI cards to plug in
    TZ50 drives, etc. becomes rather more of a challenge as the years go by,
    where the MicroVAX has the SCSI port on the back already.

    The current economic state leaves even less slack for those whose
    administrative (spousal) restrictions result in hobbyist gear budgets
    which are already severely curtailed.

    D.J.D.

  15. Re: We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap.

    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article <48E41E4F.6C6FFFE3@spam.comcast.net>,
    >> David J Dachtera writes:
    >>> Neil Rieck wrote:
    >>>> <<< We only open our wallets when the price is dirt cheap. >>>
    >>> It may be more accurate to say that we only open our wallets when the
    >>> price is within our means.
    >>>
    >>> For most companies, that means price-competitive with Wintel.
    >>>
    >>> For many hobbyists, it comes down to VMS-capable gear or family needs.`

    >> Don't see how. There is always SIMH which cost nothing (assuming you
    >> already own a PC or something). And even real hardware. I have acquired
    >> a lot of VMS capable hardware for nothing. I doubt I have more than
    >> a couple thousand dollars, spread out over about 18 years, invested
    >> in all my PDP-11 and VAX/Alpha hardware. Probably the biggest single
    >> investment was renting a truck, buying gas and using a day to go pick
    >> up 5 PDP-11/44's, a VAX and a bunch of other cool stuff.

    >
    > I also have acquired MicroVAX gear for the cost of the trip to go get
    > it. However, this is the exception and not the rule. Even when I've put
    > gear up on eBay for $1.00 plus the cost of shipping, I find very few who
    > can even afford that.
    >


    Is it an affordability problem? Or is it a shortage of people who want
    to buy long obsolete, and by today's standards slow, computers?

    I have a couple of VAXen: a VAXStation 4000/VLC, and a MicroVAX 3100. I
    haven't booted either one in years. If I want a VMS prompt, I go to my
    Alphas!


+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2