Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11 - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11 - VMS ; > Following the previous post, this would be for hobby > usage only. > > Would a SCSI CD-ROM drive be able to read such a file, > if transferred to a CD? I only have floppies. > > It ...

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Thread: Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

  1. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    > Following the previous post, this would be for hobby
    > usage only.
    >
    > Would a SCSI CD-ROM drive be able to read such a file,
    > if transferred to a CD? I only have floppies.
    >
    > It would be nice to be able to do a sysgen of 5.03, too.


    If you have a SCSI Adapter that supports CD-ROM drives then you can easily
    install RT-11 from CD. I've installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD.

    I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can install the
    OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead have to
    use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.

    Zane



  2. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    Zane H. Healy wrote:
    >> Following the previous post, this would be for hobby
    >> usage only.
    >>
    >> Would a SCSI CD-ROM drive be able to read such a file,
    >> if transferred to a CD? I only have floppies.
    >>
    >> It would be nice to be able to do a sysgen of 5.03, too.

    >
    > If you have a SCSI Adapter that supports CD-ROM drives then you can easily
    > install RT-11 from CD. I've installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD.
    >
    > I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    > mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can install the
    > OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead have to
    > use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.


    Huh? Both TK50 and DAT supports variable record lengths, so that in
    itself can't be it.
    They are both "normal" tapes drives. A DAT looks either like a TK50 or a
    TU81, depending on how you configure the SCSI controller.
    But I think I've seen in the past mentions of that RSTS/E really looks
    at the drive type and isn't happy if it isn't exactly right (stupid
    idea, but that's what I think I've read).

    Johnny



  3. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    On 13 Sep 2008 at 10:37, Johnny Billquist wrote:

    > Zane H. Healy wrote:
    > >> Following the previous post, this would be for hobby
    > >> usage only.
    > >>
    > >> Would a SCSI CD-ROM drive be able to read such a file,
    > >> if transferred to a CD? I only have floppies.
    > >>
    > >> It would be nice to be able to do a sysgen of 5.03, too.

    > >
    > > If you have a SCSI Adapter that supports CD-ROM drives then you can easily
    > > install RT-11 from CD. I've installed RT-11 and RSX-11M+ from CD.
    > >
    > > I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    > > mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can install the
    > > OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead have to
    > > use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.

    >
    > Huh? Both TK50 and DAT supports variable record lengths, so that in
    > itself can't be it.
    > They are both "normal" tapes drives. A DAT looks either like a TK50 or a
    > TU81, depending on how you configure the SCSI controller.
    > But I think I've seen in the past mentions of that RSTS/E really looks
    > at the drive type and isn't happy if it isn't exactly right (stupid
    > idea, but that's what I think I've read).
    >
    > Johnny


    If memory serves, RSTS comes unglued because of the read /
    write status of the drive ... I met this problem and found a
    work around several years back, but I'm sorry, I really cannot
    remember what it was! (Unfortunately coronary surgery has
    left me with spotty parts in my memory - I'm getting them
    back, slowly, but I fear stuff like this may be gone forever!
    Booo ... but I gotta look at the good side ... I'm still alive!)


  4. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    At 10:37 AM +0200 9/13/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >Zane H. Healy wrote:
    > > I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    >> mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can install the
    >> OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead have to
    >> use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.

    >
    >Huh? Both TK50 and DAT supports variable record lengths, so that in
    >itself can't be it.
    >They are both "normal" tapes drives. A DAT looks either like a TK50 or a
    >TU81, depending on how you configure the SCSI controller.
    >But I think I've seen in the past mentions of that RSTS/E really looks
    >at the drive type and isn't happy if it isn't exactly right (stupid
    >idea, but that's what I think I've read).


    Interesting, I was told that 4mm DAT tapes don't support variable
    record lengths. All I know is that once I tried to install DECnet/E
    using a TZ30 drive (half height SCSI TK50) rather than a TLZ06 (4mm
    DAT) it worked.

    Now you have me really interested in seeing how RSTS/E does tape
    handling. Of course all my stuff is currently in storage until we
    get a new place. :^(

    Zane


    --
    | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
    | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
    | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
    +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
    | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
    | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
    | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |


  5. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
    > At 10:37 AM +0200 9/13/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >>Zane H. Healy wrote:
    >> > I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    >>> mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can install the
    >>> OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead have to
    >>> use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.

    >>
    >>Huh? Both TK50 and DAT supports variable record lengths, so that in
    >>itself can't be it.
    >>They are both "normal" tapes drives. A DAT looks either like a TK50 or a
    >>TU81, depending on how you configure the SCSI controller.
    >>But I think I've seen in the past mentions of that RSTS/E really looks
    >>at the drive type and isn't happy if it isn't exactly right (stupid
    >>idea, but that's what I think I've read).

    >
    > Interesting, I was told that 4mm DAT tapes don't support variable
    > record lengths. All I know is that once I tried to install DECnet/E
    > using a TZ30 drive (half height SCSI TK50) rather than a TLZ06 (4mm
    > DAT) it worked.


    DAT (more properly DDS) drives support variable record lengths.
    However the software drivers in many operating systems default to
    fixed-length records. (I have experienced this with RT11, SunOS,
    NeXTstep, Solaris, and Linux). In each case there has been a way to
    change the driver to allow variable-length records. Sometimes as
    simple as setting the default length to zero.

    carl
    --
    carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego
    clowenstein@ucsd.edu


  6. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    Zane H. Healy wrote:
    > Interesting, I was told that 4mm DAT tapes don't support variable
    > record lengths.


    There were originally two competing formats. DDS, which has variable
    record lengths, won fairly quickly. Almost no one remembers the other
    format, which had fixed-length records, but supported record update in
    place, for random-access write capability (like DECtape). With DDS,
    when you write a record, everything past that record becomes
    inaccessible, except that there was a way to divide the tape into
    exactly two partitions, in which case everything from the write point to
    the end of the partition became inaccessible.

    AFAIK, no vendor sold transports that supported both formats.

    So the trivia question of the day: what was the name of the
    fixed-length record format? No credit given for looking it up with a
    search engine, as anyone could do that.


  7. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    Zane H. Healy wrote:
    > At 10:37 AM +0200 9/13/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >> Zane H. Healy wrote:
    >> > I've not managed to install RSTS/E from CD, but have tried. As I've
    >>> mentioned in the past RSTS/E is a finicky beast, while you can
    >>> install the
    >>> OS from 4mm DAT, you can not install DECnet/E from DAT, but instead
    >>> have to
    >>> use a TK50. This is due to record lengths.

    >>
    >> Huh? Both TK50 and DAT supports variable record lengths, so that in
    >> itself can't be it.
    >> They are both "normal" tapes drives. A DAT looks either like a TK50 or a
    >> TU81, depending on how you configure the SCSI controller.
    >> But I think I've seen in the past mentions of that RSTS/E really looks
    >> at the drive type and isn't happy if it isn't exactly right (stupid
    >> idea, but that's what I think I've read).

    >
    > Interesting, I was told that 4mm DAT tapes don't support variable record
    > lengths. All I know is that once I tried to install DECnet/E using a
    > TZ30 drive (half height SCSI TK50) rather than a TLZ06 (4mm DAT) it worked.
    >
    > Now you have me really interested in seeing how RSTS/E does tape
    > handling. Of course all my stuff is currently in storage until we get a
    > new place. :^(


    All I can say is that I'm using a DDS-3 drive on my RSX system, and it
    works just fine. I think you were told wrong. :-)

    Johnny



  8. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    At 12:14 AM +0200 9/15/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    >All I can say is that I'm using a DDS-3 drive on my RSX system, and it
    >works just fine. I think you were told wrong. :-)


    RSX-11M+ just plain has far better tape support than RSTS/E, but yes,
    it appears I was told wrong.

    Zane


    --
    | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
    | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
    | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
    +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
    | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
    | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
    | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |


  9. Re: set NOCRLF on RT-11

    On 14 Sep 2008 at 17:16, Zane H. Healy wrote:

    > At 12:14 AM +0200 9/15/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
    > >All I can say is that I'm using a DDS-3 drive on my RSX system, and it
    > >works just fine. I think you were told wrong. :-)

    >
    > RSX-11M+ just plain has far better tape support than RSTS/E, but yes,
    > it appears I was told wrong.
    >
    > Zane


    I wouldn't go that far There was a different mindset in the
    handling of many things as far as RSTS vs RSX was concerned.
    RSTS did have much more of a commercial application base,
    and so there was an element of "idiot proofing" that was
    included, but part of the problem is that sometimes the idiot
    proofing was tested at inappropriate times for some kinds of
    devices.


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