OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours - VMS

This is a discussion on OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours - VMS ; In article , JF Mezei writes: > Question: > > In the central Ontario town of Sudbury, there is some experiment that > was installed deep in a mine to measure some of the smallest particles > thrown at the ...

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Thread: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

  1. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article <48db4432$0$12376$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    > Question:
    >
    > In the central Ontario town of Sudbury, there is some experiment that
    > was installed deep in a mine to measure some of the smallest particles
    > thrown at the earth by the sun. So those go thorugh not only the
    > atmosphere, but also a large amount of ground/rocks and can still be
    > detected.


    Not smallest. No doubt they were looking for neutrinos, which
    tend not to interact with anything. But I don't think there is
    an established size for a neutrino that shows it as smaller than
    the electron.

    > In the case of the accerator, what happens when a proton that is highly
    > charged and highly accelerated strays from the course and wants to
    > escape the comfort of its vacuum tube ?


    Charged particles, like protons, tend to interact with the very first
    thing they contact. So they won't get very far if they escape thier
    vacuum tube.

    > Does it just go where it wants, small enough to go through normal matter
    > like metals, eventually slowing down and staying put ? Or would it cause
    > real/visible material damage on the stuff it tries to go through ?


    They can do real damage of they're sufficiently energetic and hit
    something sufficiently sensitive. But even in space, where there are
    lots of energetic protons running into computer chips on spacecraft
    the most they tend to do is flip a bit now and then.

    > In other words, when the japanese miniaturise this accelerator into a
    > portable ray gun sold at ToysR Us, would firing such a gun at a
    > politician cause the politican to notice ? Or would the protons just
    > pass through the politician like butter ?


    Anything small enough to be ported around on the back of a pickup
    truck isn't likely to produce sufficient protons of sufficient energy
    to do any quick harm. If there was, the military would have mounted
    them on tanks by now.

    Photons, not being charged particles, tend to travel a lot further
    through ordinary air. And the military is just now thinking of
    looking into Boeing's laser mounted in a 747 idea as a research
    concept.


  2. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >
    > I'm getting very tired of this subject line!


    So put it in your kill file.


  3. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article
    <43dfa11d-2dc0-4b89-8a01-02981f3fc296@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF
    writes:

    > Please elaborate. I'm not familiar with Desy but my quick glance at
    > the wikipedia article for it I only saw one sentence about any applied
    > science. The main purpose of the device was to do research in
    > fundamental physics, without which there'd be no Desy. Please
    > elaborate on your view, as I spent little time on this part.


    The original purpose was more basic research, but applied research
    became more important as time went on, things like HASYLAB which use the
    synchrotron-radiation side-effect for various things interesting for
    medicine, industry etc. The post referred to stated that a couple of
    years ago the basic-research big-scale particle-accelerator stuff was
    shut down and now ONLY other things are being done. Having studied
    physics in Hamburg and spent a lot of time at DESY, very sad from my
    point of view.


  4. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b8f1@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
    AEF writes:
    > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

    >>
    >> >> Yes, he did. Mere days before sighting land. And at a point where he
    >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educated person
    >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far east while
    >> >> traveling in that direction. Contrary to popular belief no educated
    >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat. The ancient
    >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good job of
    >> >> computing it's circumferance. So, based on the amount of rations
    >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to have had
    >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious that "The
    >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea route in a
    >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make the trip.

    >>
    >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Earth than
    >> > the correct value,

    >>
    >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%. A
    >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted as
    >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his.
    >>
    >> > even though other folks at the time had something
    >> > quite close to the correct value.

    >>
    >> At the time? Try more than 1400 years earlier.

    >
    > Why does this matter?
    >
    >>
    >> > Was this intentional on his part to
    >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe in the
    >> > smaller value?

    >>
    >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and South
    >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and merely
    >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se what
    >> was there!!

    >
    > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he did?
    > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect
    > plausible?
    >


    The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    america. The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of
    the earth. The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that
    destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west.
    Looks kinda like simple math to add them up. You do realize that
    Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. Others,
    refused.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  5. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
    >
    >> I'm getting very tired of this subject line! You aren't even talking
    >> about "the end of the world" any longer. Since the world obviously
    >> still exists,

    >
    > Doomsday is only delayed.
    > The production run will be with lead ions rather than protons.
    > Bigger bang for the buck.
    >


    That won't end the world either!

  6. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Question:
    >
    > In the central Ontario town of Sudbury, there is some experiment that
    > was installed deep in a mine to measure some of the smallest particles
    > thrown at the earth by the sun. So those go thorugh not only the
    > atmosphere, but also a large amount of ground/rocks and can still be
    > detected.
    >
    > In the case of the accerator, what happens when a proton that is highly
    > charged and highly accelerated strays from the course and wants to
    > escape the comfort of its vacuum tube ?
    >
    > Does it just go where it wants, small enough to go through normal matter
    > like metals, eventually slowing down and staying put ? Or would it cause
    > real/visible material damage on the stuff it tries to go through ?
    >
    > In other words, when the japanese miniaturise this accelerator into a
    > portable ray gun sold at ToysR Us, would firing such a gun at a
    > politician cause the politican to notice ? Or would the protons just
    > pass through the politician like butter ?


    Since politicians are made of hot air, the effects of a collision will
    be scarcely noticeable!

  7. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >> I'm getting very tired of this subject line!

    >
    > So put it in your kill file.
    >


    If my "newsreader" supported such a thing, I would. Thunderbird just
    doesn't seem to have such a thing.


  8. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article <43dfa11d-2dc0-4b89-8a01-02981f3fc296@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
    AEF writes:

    > Please elaborate. I'm not familiar with Desy but my quick glance at
    > the wikipedia article for it I only saw one sentence about any applied
    > science. The main purpose of the device was to do research in
    > fundamental physics, without which there'd be no Desy. Please
    > elaborate on your view, as I spent little time on this part.


    DESY started many decades ago as a german national lab for
    high energy physics, much like CERN, but not as large.
    They specialized on electron machines, the last one being
    HERA, an electron/proton collider. This was kind of smart,
    since electrons don't interact strongly, so the collision
    is rather clean and one can probe the internal structure
    of the proton quite well. In contrast to that, hadron collisions
    produce all kinds of junk particles which are much harder to disentangle.
    Sort of smashing two clockworks together and trying to figure out
    from the debris how the clock worked originally.
    But smartness doesn't help much if one just needs "more bang",
    and so it was decided that Germany is not rich enough to fund
    both, a big chunk of CERN budget plus an own lab doing almost the
    same research.
    There was the proposition for TESLA, a 33km linear machine,
    with an attached applied research lab as a fig leaf.
    But that was canned, and what remained is the fig leaf, XFEL,
    a free electron laser lab for synchrotron radiation and X-ray laser
    studies. I think this was a wise move. Of course high energy
    physicists would beg to differ.

  9. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de
    (Michael Kraemer) writes:

    > DESY started many decades ago as a german national lab for
    > high energy physics, much like CERN, but not as large.
    > They specialized on electron machines,


    Indeed, the name being an acronym for Deutsches ElektronenSYnchrotron.

    > But smartness doesn't help much if one just needs "more bang",
    > and so it was decided that Germany is not rich enough to fund
    > both, a big chunk of CERN budget plus an own lab doing almost the
    > same research.


    Exchanging research at the smaller DESY for more say at the larger CERN
    was probably a good move. Of course, there might have been a reduction
    in the total funding spent by Germany on particle physics.

    > There was the proposition for TESLA, a 33km linear machine,
    > with an attached applied research lab as a fig leaf.
    > But that was canned, and what remained is the fig leaf, XFEL,
    > a free electron laser lab for synchrotron radiation and X-ray laser
    > studies. I think this was a wise move. Of course high energy
    > physicists would beg to differ.


    Presumably some of the smaller accelerators at DESY are still running to
    produce synchrotron radiation etc.


  10. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article <6k1g6vF5clbsU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b8f1@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
    > AEF writes:
    >> On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    >>> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>

    >>

    >
    >The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    >america.


    The Vikings discovered parts of North America - archaeological evidence
    having been found in Newfoundland. However I know of no sagas or archaeological
    evidence for them having any knowledge of central or South America.

    Columbus' voyage obviously didn't follow the route followed by the Vikings but
    a much more southerly route.

    I'd be interested in any links you have for the map of South America you
    mention above.


    > The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of
    >the earth. The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that
    >destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west.
    >Looks kinda like simple math to add them up. You do realize that
    >Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. Others,
    >refused.
    >

    Which raises the question of why if he had evidence - such as a Map of North
    and South America he didn't use that to promote his voyage of exploration to
    the West rather relying on finding a Monarch who would not dismiss his figures
    for the size of the Earth as nonsense.
    Even if he only knew there was some habitable land there rather than a large
    continent it would have been better to have argued for a two part voyage
    taking on provisions there before continuing on to India. (A Monarch would
    have been unlikely to have considered that the land would be so large as to
    provide a barrier to further travel).

    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University

    >bill
    >
    >--
    >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    >University of Scranton |
    >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include


  11. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article ,
    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    > In article <6k1g6vF5clbsU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b8f1@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
    >> AEF writes:
    >>> On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>>> In article ,
    >>>> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    >>>> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    >>america.

    >
    > The Vikings discovered parts of North America - archaeological evidence
    > having been found in Newfoundland. However I know of no sagas or archaeological
    > evidence for them having any knowledge of central or South America.
    >
    > Columbus' voyage obviously didn't follow the route followed by the Vikings but
    > a much more southerly route.
    >
    > I'd be interested in any links you have for the map of South America you
    > mention above.


    http://www.viewzone.com/pirireis.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

    >
    >
    >> The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of
    >>the earth. The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that
    >>destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west.
    >>Looks kinda like simple math to add them up. You do realize that
    >>Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. Others,
    >>refused.
    >>

    > Which raises the question of why if he had evidence - such as a Map of North
    > and South America he didn't use that to promote his voyage of exploration to
    > the West rather relying on finding a Monarch who would not dismiss his figures
    > for the size of the Earth as nonsense.


    Because no one was going to finance a trip that did not have what was
    thought o be a guarenteed ROI. The value of spices and other products
    from the Far East was known. What, if anything, was to be found in a
    "New World" was unknown. Not all that different from finances today.

    > Even if he only knew there was some habitable land there rather than a large
    > continent it would have been better to have argued for a two part voyage
    > taking on provisions there before continuing on to India. (A Monarch would
    > have been unlikely to have considered that the land would be so large as to
    > provide a barrier to further travel).


    Well, that may well have made the trip seem too long. Remember, they
    already had two ways if getting there. Over land, very dangerous and
    expensive. And around the Horn of Africa, considered much too long.
    He had to sell them on a shorter, faster route. He apparently did
    even though any educated person oif the time would have been taught
    something quite the contrary. I'm actually surprised he didn't sell
    them the Brooklyn Bridge, too.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  12. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article <6k1pngF5fn7pU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >In article ,
    > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    >> In article <6k1g6vF5clbsU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b8f1@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
    >>> AEF writes:
    >>>> On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>>>> In article ,
    >>>>> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    >>>>> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    >>>america.

    >>
    >> The Vikings discovered parts of North America - archaeological evidence
    >> having been found in Newfoundland. However I know of no sagas or archaeological
    >> evidence for them having any knowledge of central or South America.
    >>
    >> Columbus' voyage obviously didn't follow the route followed by the Vikings but
    >> a much more southerly route.
    >>
    >> I'd be interested in any links you have for the map of South America you
    >> mention above.

    >
    >http://www.viewzone.com/pirireis.html
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map
    >

    That Map appears to be from 1513, sometime after Columbus and from the
    wikipedia article it appears that parts were from Columbus' own maps and
    Portuguese maps of that period.
    The controversial bit seems more to do with its depicition of a Southern
    Continent which could arguably be seen as a depiction of Antartica.


    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University


    >>
    >>
    >>> The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of
    >>>the earth. The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that
    >>>destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west.
    >>>Looks kinda like simple math to add them up. You do realize that
    >>>Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. Others,
    >>>refused.
    >>>

    >> Which raises the question of why if he had evidence - such as a Map of North
    >> and South America he didn't use that to promote his voyage of exploration to
    >> the West rather relying on finding a Monarch who would not dismiss his figures
    >> for the size of the Earth as nonsense.

    >
    >Because no one was going to finance a trip that did not have what was
    >thought o be a guarenteed ROI. The value of spices and other products
    >from the Far East was known. What, if anything, was to be found in a
    >"New World" was unknown. Not all that different from finances today.
    >
    >> Even if he only knew there was some habitable land there rather than a large
    >> continent it would have been better to have argued for a two part voyage
    >> taking on provisions there before continuing on to India. (A Monarch would
    >> have been unlikely to have considered that the land would be so large as to
    >> provide a barrier to further travel).

    >
    >Well, that may well have made the trip seem too long. Remember, they
    >already had two ways if getting there. Over land, very dangerous and
    >expensive. And around the Horn of Africa, considered much too long.
    >He had to sell them on a shorter, faster route. He apparently did
    >even though any educated person oif the time would have been taught
    >something quite the contrary. I'm actually surprised he didn't sell
    >them the Brooklyn Bridge, too.
    >
    >bill
    >
    >--
    >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    >billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    >University of Scranton |
    >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include


  13. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    In article ,
    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    > In article <6k1pngF5fn7pU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>In article ,
    >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    >>> In article <6k1g6vF5clbsU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>>In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b8f1@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
    >>>> AEF writes:
    >>>>> On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    >>>>>> In article ,
    >>>>>> hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    >>>>>> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    >>>>america.
    >>>
    >>> The Vikings discovered parts of North America - archaeological evidence
    >>> having been found in Newfoundland. However I know of no sagas or archaeological
    >>> evidence for them having any knowledge of central or South America.
    >>>
    >>> Columbus' voyage obviously didn't follow the route followed by the Vikings but
    >>> a much more southerly route.
    >>>
    >>> I'd be interested in any links you have for the map of South America you
    >>> mention above.

    >>
    >>http://www.viewzone.com/pirireis.html
    >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map
    >>

    > That Map appears to be from 1513, sometime after Columbus and from the
    > wikipedia article it appears that parts were from Columbus' own maps and
    > Portuguese maps of that period.


    If you actually read the articles about it you find that it is based on
    maps and charts going back to long before Columbus that the Turkish
    navigators were well aware of. Piri Reis pulled to grther a lot of
    maps, including Columbus's charts but was celar in his notes that the
    sources were much older. Some are claimed to have gone back to the
    time of Alexander the Great. There have been published articles (no,
    I don't remember the references as I read most of them long before the
    web even existed) that stated there was considerable evidence that in
    preparing for his journey Columbus visited many places, including Turkey
    examining avaialable charts and maps.

    > The controversial bit seems more to do with its depicition of a Southern
    > Continent which could arguably be seen as a depiction of Antartica.


    All of it is rather controversial as even at the time this map was
    prepared by OPiri Reis the South American continent had not been
    thoroughly mapped. The part depicting Antarctica sans ice is just
    more fodder for speculation.

    The most important items are the fact that experienced navigators would
    have known how far it was from Spain to India traveling west and there
    were existant charts showing that there was a land mass blocking any
    attempt to sail in that direction.

    It becomes much more fun trying to figure out who made those earlier
    charts and maps and why this knowledge lay lost for so long.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  14. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    >> In article , "Richard B.
    >> Gilbert" writes:
    >>> I'm getting very tired of this subject line!

    >>
    >> So put it in your kill file.
    >>

    >
    > If my "newsreader" supported such a thing, I would. Thunderbird just
    > doesn't seem to have such a thing.
    >


    From 'Message" on Thunderbird's main menu, or the "Message" menu item
    while reading a message, select "Create Filter from Message...".

    Jeff



    ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
    http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
    ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

  15. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

    > If my "newsreader" supported such a thing, I would. Thunderbird just
    > doesn't seem to have such a thing.



    Tools -> Message Filters. You can filter on the subject sender etc.

  16. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    On Sep 25, 7:22*am, Neil Rieck wrote:
    > On Sep 25, 3:53*am, JF Mezei wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Question:

    >
    > > In the central Ontario town of Sudbury, there is some experiment that
    > > was installed deep in a mine to measure some of the smallest particles
    > > thrown at the earth by the sun. So those go thorugh not only the
    > > atmosphere, but also a large amount of ground/rocks and can still be
    > > detected.

    >
    > > In the case of the accerator, what happens when a proton that is highly
    > > charged and highly accelerated strays from the course and wants to
    > > escape the comfort of its vacuum tube ?

    >
    > > Does it just go where it wants, small enough to go through normal matter
    > > like metals, eventually slowing down and staying put ? Or would it cause
    > > *real/visible material damage on the stuff it tries to go through ?

    >
    > > In other words, when the japanese miniaturise this accelerator into a
    > > portable ray gun sold at ToysR Us, would firing such a gun at a
    > > politician cause the politican to notice ? Or would the protons just
    > > pass through the politician like butter ?

    >
    > JF. The experiment you are referring to is called SNO (Sudbury
    > Neutrino Experiment). One of the main objectives is to observe Soloar
    > neutrinos to find out why many of them are missing. (Neutrinos are
    > near-massless leptons with no electical charge). Stellar models tell
    > us that there should be many more of them than scientists have
    > actually detected. Before SNO, it was thought that neutrinos were
    > massless and travalled the speed of light.


    I'm a little surprised by, and skeptical, about this. I remember ca.
    1992 (when I was doing physics at Ohio U.) there was some excitement
    about some experiments appearing to show that the mass of the neutrino
    was 17 keV. It was actually an artifact of a rather subtle error in
    the analysis. I also remember sometime between 1995 and 1990 (part of
    my graduate career) there was some discussion about whether it had
    mass or not. My gut feeling was that it did have a finite mass (finite
    in physics excludes zero). I thought about both photons and neutrinos
    having zero rest mass and it just didn't seem right. But I wasn't as
    certain as I was about the fifth force! (I was right about the fifth
    force!)

    Scientists at SNO have
    > postulated that neutrinos oscillate between three different neutino
    > flavors. If neutrinos travelled the speed of light, they would not
    > feel time and so would not be able to oscillate. But since they do
    > feel time, they must be travelling a little slower than the speed of
    > light. This means that they must have a little more mass than
    > previously thought.


    I never thought of it that way! That's an interesting viewpoint.
    Previously (not to say that either viewpoint is wrong) I always
    thought of it as by having 3 different masses, there'd be different de
    Broglie wavelengths and thus the overlap would allow "oscillation".
    This appears as a "mixing" (if I have the term right) of the flavors
    (electron, muon, tau) and the mass eigenstates. If I understand this
    right, each "neutrino" has an associated wave function and there are
    various probabilities as to which flavor will be observed for each.
    Isn't QM fun?! Actually, Wikipedia has an article entitled "Neutrino
    oscillations", so I'll stop here.


    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrin...g/wiki/Leptons
    >
    > Neil Rieck
    > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/


    AEF

  17. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    On Sep 25, 8:58*am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > In article <331ce77d-49f6-48a6-810a-69946005b...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups..com>,
    > * * * * AEF writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Sep 23, 12:42 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > >> In article ,
    > >> * * * * hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:

    >
    > >> > In article <6js62cF4rf5...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu
    > >> > (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

    >
    > >> >> Yes, he did. *Mere days before sighting land. *And at a point where he
    > >> >> had actually travelled less than half the distance any educated person
    > >> >> of the time would have known it would take to reach the far east while
    > >> >> traveling in that direction. *Contrary to popular belief no educated
    > >> >> person of the time aactually thought the earth was flat. *The ancient
    > >> >> greeks had determined it was round and had done a pretty good job of
    > >> >> computing it's circumferance. *So, based on the amount of rations
    > >> >> Columbus left Spain with and the knowledge he is known to have had
    > >> >> (and some he is suspected to have had) it becomes obvious that "The
    > >> >> Far East" was never his target because assuming an all sea route ina
    > >> >> westerly direction, he left with insuffucient rations to make the trip.

    >
    > >> > Columbus used a smaller value for the circumference of the Earth than
    > >> > the correct value,

    >
    > >> Smaller is an understatement as he missed it by more than 50%. *A
    > >> navigator who made mistakes like that would hardly have lasted as
    > >> long as he had or had a reputaion supposedly as good as his.

    >
    > >> > * * * * * * * * * * *even though other folks at the time had something
    > >> > quite close to the correct value.

    >
    > >> At the time? *Try more than 1400 years earlier.

    >
    > > Why does this matter?

    >
    > >> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Was this intentional on his part to
    > >> > make his plans sound more realistic, or did he really believe in the
    > >> > smaller value?

    >
    > >> Or did he have pre-knowledge of the existence of the North and South
    > >> American (although obviously not under that name) continents and merely
    > >> bilked Ferdinand and Isabella into financing his boondogle to se what
    > >> was there!!

    >
    > > Or did he prefer dogs or cats? This is pure speculation. Maybe he did?
    > > Maybe not. Is there any evidence at all to make what you suspect
    > > plausible?

    >
    > The known existence of a map showing the coastline of north and south
    > america. *The fact that he obviously knew the true circumference of
    > the earth. *The fact that he took just enough supplies to reach that
    > destination and way too little to actully reach India by traveling west.
    > Looks kinda like simple math to add them *up. *You do realize that
    > Spain wasn't the first place asked to fiannce this boondogle. *Others,
    > refused.


    CBS refused Star Trek in favor of Lost in Space!

    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon * * * * *| *de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. *Three wolves
    > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | *and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton * |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania * | * * * * #include *


    So what great riches was he hoping to find in the Americas?

    AEF

  18. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    On Sep 25, 10:25*am, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:
    > In article <43dfa11d-2dc0-4b89-8a01-02981f3fc...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups..com>,
    >
    > AEF writes:
    > > Please elaborate. I'm not familiar with Desy but my quick glance at
    > > the wikipedia article for it I only saw one sentence about any applied
    > > science. The main purpose of the device was to do research in
    > > fundamental physics, without which there'd be no Desy. Please
    > > elaborate on your view, as I spent little time on this part.

    >
    > DESY started many decades ago as a german national lab for
    > high energy physics, much like CERN, but not as large.
    > They specialized on electron machines, the last one being
    > HERA, an electron/proton collider. This was kind of smart,
    > since electrons don't interact strongly, so the collision
    > is rather clean and one can probe the internal structure
    > of the proton quite well. In contrast to that, hadron collisions
    > produce all kinds of junk particles which are much harder to disentangle.
    > Sort of smashing two clockworks together and trying to figure out
    > from the debris how the clock worked originally.


    Yes, but you can learn other things from (p,p') scattering (this is
    the physicists' way of saying proton in, proton out). For example, you
    can measure neutron transition densities (which was my thesis work --
    what a surprise! which tells you about nuclear structure, as the
    electrons are insensitive to neutrons. Different probes for different
    different stuff to be measured.

    > But smartness doesn't help much if one just needs "more bang",
    > and so it was decided that Germany is not rich enough to fund
    > both, a big chunk of CERN budget plus an own lab doing almost the
    > same research.
    > There was the proposition for TESLA, a 33km linear machine,
    > with an attached applied research lab as a fig leaf.
    > But that was canned, and what remained is the fig leaf, XFEL,
    > a free electron laser lab for synchrotron radiation and X-ray laser
    > studies. I think this was a wise move. Of course high energy
    > physicists would beg to differ.


    AEF

  19. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    > In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de
    > (Michael Kraemer) writes:
    >
    >
    >>In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
    >>Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>
    >>>Just yesterday, I saw a report on television about a heavy-ion
    >>>accelerator being used to treat tumors. This is a modern example of a
    >>>"practical use" for something which came out of basic research.

    >>
    >>That was "nano" with the contribution on HIT, right ?

    >
    >
    > Right.
    >
    >
    >>I happen to have contributed to that development (and still do).
    >>But this is not such a good example, since it did not drop
    >>out of a big expensive experiment by chance.
    >>In fact it has roots in the simple energy loss formula
    >>by Bethe & Co (1930s), the idea by Wilson (1940s) to use
    >>the proton Bragg peak for radiotherapy and a single curve by Barendsen
    >>showing higher cell killing efficiency of heavier ions (1960s).
    >>Since then it was hard, very directed work to put together the pieces
    >>of the puzzle which eventually led to this new type of radiotherapy.

    >
    >
    > By "modern" I meant that the setup in "nano" was modern. In contrast,
    > traditional X-ray machines haven't changed much in decades (though at
    > least where I have mine done, there is no longer film in the cartridge,
    > but rather some detector, presumably similar to a CCD---huge advantage
    > in that the images can be seen right away), though of course there have
    > been advances in CT etc.
    >


    The "modern" X-ray tube, still used in most X-ray machines, was
    developed about 100 years ago by William D. Coolidge who
    worked for General Electric. To get this back on topic, Coolidge
    was born in Hudson Massachusetts, home of the infamous DEC Fab.

    Closer to home, my grandfather bought his house from Coolidge's
    father in the early 1920's, and my dad was born there. I'm not
    sure if this was the Coolidge family home, or just a 2nd house
    they owned. The Coolidges still lived across the street when I
    was a kid. (William Coolidge died at age 101 in 1975, but I'm
    pretty sure he didn't live there, though he was probably born in one
    of the two houses, either my grandparents' house or the one across
    the street.) This also puts me at 3 or 4 degrees of separation
    from Thomas Edison. Not quite as cool as being descended from one
    of the Lumiere brothers, but close ;-) (Hi, Didier, if you're still
    reading c.o.v.)

    --
    John Santos
    Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    781-861-0670 ext 539

  20. Re: OT: The end of the world in roughly 3 hours

    On Sep 25, 6:29 pm, AEF wrote:
    > On Sep 25, 7:22 am, Neil Rieck wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Sep 25, 3:53 am, JF Mezei wrote:

    >
    > > > Question:

    >
    > > > In the central Ontario town of Sudbury, there is some experiment that
    > > > was installed deep in a mine to measure some of the smallest particles
    > > > thrown at the earth by the sun. So those go thorugh not only the
    > > > atmosphere, but also a large amount of ground/rocks and can still be
    > > > detected.

    >
    > > > In the case of the accerator, what happens when a proton that is highly
    > > > charged and highly accelerated strays from the course and wants to
    > > > escape the comfort of its vacuum tube ?

    >
    > > > Does it just go where it wants, small enough to go through normal matter
    > > > like metals, eventually slowing down and staying put ? Or would it cause
    > > > real/visible material damage on the stuff it tries to go through ?

    >
    > > > In other words, when the japanese miniaturise this accelerator into a
    > > > portable ray gun sold at ToysR Us, would firing such a gun at a
    > > > politician cause the politican to notice ? Or would the protons just
    > > > pass through the politician like butter ?

    >
    > > JF. The experiment you are referring to is called SNO (Sudbury
    > > Neutrino Experiment). One of the main objectives is to observe Soloar
    > > neutrinos to find out why many of them are missing. (Neutrinos are
    > > near-massless leptons with no electical charge). Stellar models tell
    > > us that there should be many more of them than scientists have
    > > actually detected. Before SNO, it was thought that neutrinos were
    > > massless and travalled the speed of light.

    >
    > I'm a little surprised by, and skeptical, about this. I remember ca.
    > 1992 (when I was doing physics at Ohio U.) there was some excitement
    > about some experiments appearing to show that the mass of the neutrino
    > was 17 keV. It was actually an artifact of a rather subtle error in
    > the analysis. I also remember sometime between 1995 and 1990 (part of


    Make that 1985 and 1990.

    > my graduate career) there was some discussion about whether it had
    > mass or not. My gut feeling was that it did have a finite mass (finite
    > in physics excludes zero). I thought about both photons and neutrinos
    > having zero rest mass and it just didn't seem right. But I wasn't as
    > certain as I was about the fifth force! (I was right about the fifth
    > force!)
    >
    > Scientists at SNO have
    >
    > > postulated that neutrinos oscillate between three different neutino
    > > flavors. If neutrinos travelled the speed of light, they would not
    > > feel time and so would not be able to oscillate. But since they do
    > > feel time, they must be travelling a little slower than the speed of
    > > light. This means that they must have a little more mass than
    > > previously thought.

    >
    > I never thought of it that way! That's an interesting viewpoint.
    > Previously (not to say that either viewpoint is wrong) I always
    > thought of it as by having 3 different masses, there'd be different de
    > Broglie wavelengths and thus the overlap would allow "oscillation".
    > This appears as a "mixing" (if I have the term right) of the flavors
    > (electron, muon, tau) and the mass eigenstates. If I understand this
    > right, each "neutrino" has an associated wave function and there are
    > various probabilities as to which flavor will be observed for each.
    > Isn't QM fun?! Actually, Wikipedia has an article entitled "Neutrino
    > oscillations", so I'll stop here.
    >
    >
    >
    > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrin...a.org/wiki/Sud...

    >
    > > Neil Rieck
    > > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    > > Ontario, Canada.http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

    >
    > AEF



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