In article ,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <6higveFm5a73U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>
>> I wrote a Data-entry package, a file transfer package (to upload the data-
>> entry stuff), a program to read input from an optical scanner and a bunch
>> of other things. I also had fun setting up the biggest Terak config any
>> one there had ever seen. Anyone else ever try doing RT-11 COBOL with
>> nothing but 4 8" floppies for data storage? :-)
>
> Since the "RT" in RT-11 stands for real-time, I'd never even looked
> for a COBOL compiler.

There are lots of places that I knew that used RT-11 the same way others used
CP/M. As far as I knew, RT-11 and UCSD-Pascal were the only OSes ever made
available for the TERAK.

>
> But 8" floppies have got to be better for this than fan-fold.

Unit#0: OS
Unit#1: Compiler
Unit#2: Sources
Unit#3: Destination for objects.

All clicking away and blinking to beat the band. Now that was a computer!! :-)

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

On Aug 25, 2:11*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
> johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > I personally have no idea why Cisco bought Linksys,
>
> Cisco did not have any low cost products. And it was a bit like DEC, not
> wanting to start producing low cost products for SOHO and residential
> markets because large enterprises would buy those instead of the more
> profitable high end Cisco gear.
>

Correct. Ten years ago, we attempted to purchase a CISCO Firewall
(PIX?) for our VAX-6430. The starting price was $6000 which went up
with more features. After my boss recovered from his sticker-shock
induced heart attack, I suggested we trial a LinkSys BEFSR41 (which
was only $200 at that time) since our expected traffic really didn't
justify anything larger. The LinkSys worked perfectly for 6 years
before it died. That day I went over to Office Depot and bought two
more (one spare) for about the same original price.

So I am assuming that CISCO bought LinkSys just so they could replace
the hole in their product line.

Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

On Aug 26, 6:44*am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
...snip...
> I love it when people throw that term "legacy" around to push their own
> agendas.

Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy Computer
Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
"legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising

:-)

> Lets call it for what it is - "legacy" is a term that people use in a
> polite but derogatory manner to imply that the future direction they
> prefer is not that which they view as the current direction.
>

My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
"works 24x7"

Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

On Aug 26, 10:06*am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
[...snip...]
>
> I have always found this an interesting comment. *My first real foray into
> the world of Microcomputers (as a professional rather than as a hacker) was
> on an LSI-11/02 (Terak). *I got the *assigned the project because allmy
> co-workers (mainframe programmers) said that there was no way one could do
> anything usefull in 28K Words of memory.
>
> I wrote a Data-entry package, a file transfer package (to upload the data-
> entry stuff), a program to read input from an optical scanner and a bunch
> of other things. *I also had fun setting up the biggest Terak config any
> one there had ever seen. *Anyone else ever try doing RT-11 COBOL *with
> nothing but 4 8" floppies for data storage? *:-)
>

Yes. Both FORTRAN and BASIC on RT-11. That OS was really ahead of its
time. (well for a non-GUI OS it was well ahead of MS-DOS, PC-DOS, and
CP/M)

Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

Neil Rieck wrote:
> On Aug 26, 6:44 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
> ...snip...
>> I love it when people throw that term "legacy" around to push their own
>> agendas.
>
> Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
> consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy Computer
> Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
> sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
> "legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising
>
> :-)
>
>> Lets call it for what it is - "legacy" is a term that people use in a
>> polite but derogatory manner to imply that the future direction they
>> prefer is not that which they view as the current direction.
>>
>
> My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
> "works 24x7"
>

Hang on to that legacy job!! There are very few legacy jobs available!

In article <37e3f5f8-7ff5-4352-ab4c-4647bf580cf6@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Neil Rieck writes:
> On Aug 26, 10:06*am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> [...snip...]
>>
>> I have always found this an interesting comment. *My first real foray into
>> the world of Microcomputers (as a professional rather than as a hacker) was
>> on an LSI-11/02 (Terak). *I got the *assigned the project because all my
>> co-workers (mainframe programmers) said that there was no way one could do
>> anything usefull in 28K Words of memory.
>>
>> I wrote a Data-entry package, a file transfer package (to upload the data-
>> entry stuff), a program to read input from an optical scanner and a bunch
>> of other things. *I also had fun setting up the biggest Terak config any
>> one there had ever seen. *Anyone else ever try doing RT-11 COBOL *with
>> nothing but 4 8" floppies for data storage? *:-)
>>
> Yes. Both FORTRAN and BASIC on RT-11. That OS was really ahead of its
> time. (well for a non-GUI OS it was well ahead of MS-DOS, PC-DOS, and
> CP/M)

How? With the exception of the Realtime stuff, which probably made up
the smallest segment of its users, it seemed to me that it was used
pretty much like CP/M and MSDOS/PCDOS came years later. There was
much more usable software than any of those other OSes but as for use,
it was just CP/M for the PDP family.

bill




--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

In article ,
Neil Rieck writes:
> On Aug 26, 6:44*am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
> ...snip...
>> I love it when people throw that term "legacy" around to push their own
>> agendas.
> Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
> consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy Computer
> Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
> sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
> "legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising
>:-)
>> Lets call it for what it is - "legacy" is a term that people use in a
>> polite but derogatory manner to imply that the future direction they
>> prefer is not that which they view as the current direction.
>>
> My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
> "works 24x7"

Actually, "legacy" is a term the industry has for any system who's
owners have let slide to the point that it is irrelevant to the rest
of the industry. It isn't VMS's detractors who have labeled it
"legacy". That is totally the result of DEC, Compaq and HP's treatment
of the product.

bill




--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <48b427b4$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes:
>>
>> Where did you saw the patches for VAX V7.3?
>> May I have it?
>
> I saw the announcement on Eisner.

I take that back. I misread one of the Alpha patches.

If you have a VAX, despite HP promising support for 7.3, you are
SOL for now.

This could be due to DEC's mistake over a decade ago of splitting the
VAX and Alpha sources. Everything done on the Alpha and I64 sources
(which were not split) has to be done over on VAX.

Anybody in software maintenance knows, when you make a copy you
double the maintenance effort.

Oh, well, at that time DEC still thought they were a hardwre vendor.

In article , Neil Rieck writes:
>
> Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
> consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy Computer
> Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
> sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
> "legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising

You're going to compete with Tim's Trailing Edge?

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:32:56 -0700, Bob Koehler
wrote:

> Oh, well, at that time DEC still thought they were a hardwre vendor.

Unfortunately, they still do, otherwise they would be on X86

--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:09:11 -0700, Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

> Actually, "legacy" is a term the industry has for any system who's
> owners have let slide to the point that it is irrelevant to the rest
> of the industry. It isn't VMS's detractors who have labeled it
> "legacy". That is totally the result of DEC, Compaq and HP's treatment
> of the product.

On mainframes, Websphere makes legacy applications current

--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

In article ,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:

> Since the "RT" in RT-11 stands for real-time, I'd never even looked
> for a COBOL compiler.

We used Time Shared Dibol (TSD) on RT-11, and it was a very effective
business tool. We did interactive sales and purchase order processing,
stock control and accounts with it. It was quite revolutionary at the
time, as all our competitors were still doing batch processing on
mainframes (some had data entry screens, but the majority were still on
punch cards).

--
Paul Sture

In article , "Tom Linden" writes:
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:32:56 -0700, Bob Koehler
> wrote:
>
>> Oh, well, at that time DEC still thought they were a hardwre vendor.
>
> Unfortunately, they still do, otherwise they would be on X86

Well, Compaq decided not to be a CPU vendor, but they choose the
wrong porting target. HP unfortunately is an ink vendor.

DEC is no longer thinking they are anything.

billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

> In article
> ,
> Neil Rieck writes:

>> My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
>> "works 24x7"

> Actually, "legacy" is a term the industry has for any system who's
> owners have let slide to the point that it is irrelevant to the rest
> of the industry. It isn't VMS's detractors who have labeled it
> "legacy". That is totally the result of DEC, Compaq and HP's treatment
> of the product.

In point of fact, when the DECUS Large Systems SIG went away, I was asked to
chair a Working Group within the Site, Management & Training SIG to host the
remainder of the LCGSIG functions. We very carefully chose to name ourselves
the "Legacy Systems Working Group"--and invited participation from other SIGs
representing products in similar straits.

At the next Symposia, I met someone from DECUS Australia who presented me with
a poster for their "Nostalgic and Obsolete Systems SIG".

Which name do you suppose sounds more professional to management? Which
inspires them to have more care for the lumbering beasts in the back corner of
the facility?

--
Rich Alderson "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime."
news@alderson.users.panix.com --Death, of the Endless

Richard B. Gilbert skrev:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article ,
>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article , Johnny Billquist
>>> writes:
>>>> Heck, a PDP-11 provides support for that.
>>>> Stack is in D-space. Code is in I-space... If you try to jump to the
>>>> stack, you will be executing something, but it won't be from the
>>>> stack, unless you decide to map I-space and D-space to the same memory.
>>> The PDP-11 was in many ways ahead of its time, but the 11/44 I used
>>> was the only one large enough to have different RAM spaces to map
>>> I-space and D-space to.
>>
>> Many of them did. I don't remember for sure but I think everything
>> larger
>> than the 11/24. I know my 11/44's, 11/73's and 11/93 all do. Don't
>> think
>> the 11/23 did, but maybe the 11/23+.
>>
>> I have a book at home with the whole chart of features by processor.
>> I'll
>> try to take a look tonite if I have time.
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>
> I believe the Micro 11/23 had I and D spaces. I was responsible for one
> briefly. The address space was entirely too limited! We replaced it
> with a VAX 8200.

No, the 11/23 don't have I/D space support. The 11/23+ atleast supports 4 megs
of memory, but still without I/D space.
Off my head, the processors supporting I/D space are:
11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93 and
11/94.

Of these, the 11/53, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93 and 11/94 are all based on the
J11 chip.
The 11/45, 11/50, 11/55, 11/70 and 11/74 are all variants of the KB11 CPU, which
then only leaves the 11/44. :-)

Of the above machines, all but the 11/45, 11/50 and 11/55 supports 4 megs of memory.

In addition to the machines above, the 11/23+ and 11/24 also supports 4 megs of
memory.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

-----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg999@cs.uofs.edu]
> Sent: August 27, 2008 8:09 AM
> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS
>
> In article > f5f688b7389d@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> Neil Rieck writes:
> > On Aug 26, 6:44 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
> > ...snip...
> >> I love it when people throw that term "legacy" around to push their
> own
> >> agendas.
> > Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
> > consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy
> Computer
> > Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
> > sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
> > "legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising
> >:-)
> >> Lets call it for what it is - "legacy" is a term that people use in
> a
> >> polite but derogatory manner to imply that the future direction they
> >> prefer is not that which they view as the current direction.
> >>
> > My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
> > "works 24x7"
>
> Actually, "legacy" is a term the industry has for any system who's
> owners have let slide to the point that it is irrelevant to the rest
> of the industry. It isn't VMS's detractors who have labeled it
> "legacy". That is totally the result of DEC, Compaq and HP's treatment
> of the product.
>
> bill
>
>
[snip ..]

Nope.

I am sure everyone on this list has experience with those in their groups
who have Wintel promoters who say existing UNIX and/or mainframe
systems are legacy and they need to move to "where the rest of the industry
is going...". [I did DC strategy engagement at US university and they
wanted to replace most of their "legacy" Solaris9 systems with Linux.]

And of course, there will be those in some companies that state Unix is the
way of the future and hence need to replace those one OS, one bus app legacy
Wintel environments.

Its all in the eyes of the beholder or put another way, its all in what OS
preferences you like or are familiar with vs. what you would like the future
to be.

Rather than be seen as hostile or have some OS religion against the existing
environment, you simply be polite and label the existing system as "legacy"
which is a polite way of saying you do not like the existing system because
you have other preferences.

Sales people love the term "legacy" as it is a means to leverage new sales.

:-)

Regards

Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-254-8911
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.

In article , Johnny Billquist writes:
>
> No, the 11/23 don't have I/D space support. The 11/23+ atleast supports 4 megs
> of memory, but still without I/D space.
> Off my head, the processors supporting I/D space are:
> 11/44, 11/45, 11/50, 11/53, 11/55, 11/70, 11/73, 11/74, 11/83, 11/84, 11/93 and
> 11/94.

Of course, the siugnificant point is that unless the hardware has
some mechanism, the OS kernel can't do anything about executing stack
space.

The separation of I and D spaces on some PDP-11 models is possible only
because physical address space on those models (18 or 22 bit) was larger
than virtual address space (always 16 bit). This doesn't apply to a
whole lot of 32 bit or 64 bit architectures that tend to have a
maximum of 32 bits or 48 bits of physical address space.

I'm sitting here on a 32 bit system with 31 bits of RAM space.
Separating I and D space won't help, since they'ed both map to within
32 bits of each other. The hardware has no no-execute bit in page
protection. There's nothing the kernel can do about that.

Now sometimes I run SIMH. And I supposed I could modify SIMH to add
a no-execute bit. And then I could modify the VAX VMS kernel to use it.
But that's a pretty big patch. And I could give it 33 bits of
simulated physical address space, but separating I and D space would be a
major hack to VMS.

I think I'd be better off writing an I64 emulator for SIMH. But I'm
not in the mood to do so.

In article <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED5E7F687@gvw1158 exb.americas.hpqcorp.net>,
"Main, Kerry" writes:
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg999@cs.uofs.edu]
>> Sent: August 27, 2008 8:09 AM
>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
>> Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS
>>
>> In article >> f5f688b7389d@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>> Neil Rieck writes:
>> > On Aug 26, 6:44 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
>> > ...snip...
>> >> I love it when people throw that term "legacy" around to push their
>> own
>> >> agendas.
>> > Me too. When I retire from my current job I`m thinking of starting a
>> > consulting business that will me named something like "Legacy
>> Computer
>> > Company" (now don`t you people steal my idea). That way, idustry
>> > sideliners will be over-hearing conversations with "legacy-this" and
>> > "legacy-that" and I will get be receiving free advertising
>> >:-)
>> >> Lets call it for what it is - "legacy" is a term that people use in
>> a
>> >> polite but derogatory manner to imply that the future direction they
>> >> prefer is not that which they view as the current direction.
>> >>
>> > My day-to-day observations tell me that "legacy" is a synonym for
>> > "works 24x7"
>>
>> Actually, "legacy" is a term the industry has for any system who's
>> owners have let slide to the point that it is irrelevant to the rest
>> of the industry. It isn't VMS's detractors who have labeled it
>> "legacy". That is totally the result of DEC, Compaq and HP's treatment
>> of the product.
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
> [snip ..]
>
> Nope.
>
> I am sure everyone on this list has experience with those in their groups
> who have Wintel promoters who say existing UNIX and/or mainframe
> systems are legacy

Sorry to disappoint you Kerry, but I have been working with Unix for
nearly 30 years and have never heard any Unix refered to as "Legacy".
Probably because it continues to move forward with very public new
releases in pretty much every flavor. Even the BSD's which make little
if any effort to market themselves (unlike Linux, The Hypemeister) are
better known and more in the public eye than VMS these days.

> and they need to move to "where the rest of the industry
> is going...". [I did DC strategy engagement at US university and they
> wanted to replace most of their "legacy" Solaris9 systems with Linux.]

What's your point? That's Unix to Unix. Seems rather obvious to me
that they don't see Unix as "legacy", just Solaris 9. Solaris 9 came
out in May of 2002. I can understand wanting to replace it.

>
> And of course, there will be those in some companies that state Unix is the
> way of the future and hence need to replace those one OS, one bus app legac=
> y
> Wintel environments.

I have never heard anyone refer to Wintel as "legacy". When people talk
about replacing Wintel it is usually has nothing to do with age or percieved
future of the product but more likely cost and/or ideology.

>
> Its all in the eyes of the beholder or put another way, its all in what OS
> preferences you like or are familiar with vs. what you would like the futur=
> e
> to be.

Keep telling yourself that. Unfortunately, it is what the IT industry
prefers and sees as the future. And we know what the rankings are for
that.

>
> Rather than be seen as hostile or have some OS religion against the existin=
> g
> environment, you simply be polite and label the existing system as "legacy"
> which is a polite way of saying you do not like the existing system because
> you have other preferences.
>
> Sales people love the term "legacy" as it is a means to leverage new sales.

Just one tool for salesdroids. HP's lack of marketing of VMS does much
more to help salesdroids eliminate it than anything else.

And for those who might still think there is so much hidden VMS use in the
government, In connection with my association with DISA I brought up the
question about wether or not there was a need/desire to test or update the
OpenVMS Security Readiness Review Evaluation Script as the current one on
the webpage is dated Jan 28, 2005. I was informed that there was no need
to as the intent was to remove mention of it from the DISA Webpage. Interpret
that however you wish.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

On Aug 28, 9:04 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <9D02E14BC0A2AE43A5D16A4CD8EC5A593ED5E7F...@gvw1158 exb.americas.hpqcorp.net>,
> "Main, Kerry" writes:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:billg...@cs.uofs.edu]
> >> Sent: August 27, 2008 8:09 AM
> >> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> >> Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS
>
> >> In article > >> f5f688b73...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Neil Rieck writes:
> >> > On Aug 26, 6:44 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
> >> > ...snip...
..
..
..
[...BLAH BLAH BLAH...]
..
..
..
[...]
>
> > Rather than be seen as hostile or have some OS religion against the existin=
> > g
> > environment, you simply be polite and label the existing system as "legacy"
> > which is a polite way of saying you do not like the existing system because
> > you have other preferences.
>
> > Sales people love the term "legacy" as it is a means to leverage new sales.
>
> Just one tool for salesdroids. HP's lack of marketing of VMS does much
> more to help salesdroids eliminate it than anything else.
>
> And for those who might still think there is so much hidden VMS use in the
> government, In connection with my association with DISA I brought up the
> question about wether or not there was a need/desire to test or update the
> OpenVMS Security Readiness Review Evaluation Script as the current one on
> the webpage is dated Jan 28, 2005. I was informed that there was no need
> to as the intent was to remove mention of it from the DISA Webpage. Interpret
> that however you wish.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

\

To all participants in this thread:

I saw this movie! Though I *am* preparing my "Advantages of the EDT
editor" spiel. But it will be a while. And I have a partly new movie
in the works.

BTW, what is the origin of the name EDT? Is it a super-secret acronym,
or just an abbreviation of EDIT?

AEF

On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, AEF wrote:

> BTW, what is the origin of the name EDT? Is it a super-secret
> acronym, or just an abbreviation of EDIT?

EDI was already taken?

If EDT on RSX came before or was concurrent with EDT on VMS then that
is a plausible explanation.

In RSX, specially installed tasks with long> became "commands" so you did not have to preface the line with
RUN (longer explanation available). There was already an editor
called EDI.

My 2 cents.


--

Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX)
http://gmcl.com/