Tru64 file system source code now open source - VMS

http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=208800252

John Smith wrote:
> http://www.informationweek.com/news/...leID=208800252
>
>
>
##
Tru64 is a 64-bit Unix operating system for the Alpha microprocessor
architecture owned by HP. Tru64 was a product of Compaq, which was
acquired by HP in 2002.
##

No mention of Tru64 coming from Digital. No mention about Alpha having
been murdered and Tru64 development having stopped in 2001.

The last paragraph though is the best. Finally, a true reflection of
HP's true intentions. And I bet The Stallards/Livermores of HP will
applaud that paragraph instead of writing a letter to informationweek to
deny it. (someone else already posted that paragraphs about HP migrating
apps from VMS/Tru64 to HP-UX).



This is the official HP press release about it: (Note that HP developped
Tru64).

##
HP Contributes Source Code to Open Source Community to Advance Adoption
of Linux
MainSMDS

PALO ALTO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 23, 2008--

Continuing its efforts to advance customer adoption of Linux, HP
(NYSE:HPQ)today announced the contribution of its Tru64 UNIX Advanced
File System (AdvFS)source code to the open source community.

The AdvFS source code includes capabilities that increase uptime,
enhancesecurity and help ensure maximum performance of Linux file
systems. HP willcontribute the code as a reference implementation of an
enterprise Linux filesystem under the terms of General Public License
Version 2 for compatibilitywith the Linux kernel, as well as provide
design documentation, test suites andengineering resources.

Linux is one of the most prominent examples of free software and open
sourcedevelopment, and source code continues to draw interest from
developers, theuser community and customers. HP, which ships a Linux
server at the rate of oneper minute, has long provided open source
alternatives to customers andcontributed to the open source community to
speed market development.

The source code serves as a rich technology base to advance
ongoingdevelopment of Linux by providing a comprehensive foundation for
Linux kerneldevelopers to leverage and improve Linux file system
functionality.

Developed by HP, AdvFS has been deployed for more than 16 years by
enterprisesthroughout the world. It simplifies file and storage
management, enables onlinesystem backups and increases data
availability. The integration of key AdvFSfile system features also
accelerates the roadmap of future solutions designedto strengthen Linux
for enterprise customers.

"To ensure the highest levels of data security and availability,
Linuxcustomers need full and immediate access to established
technology," said MartinFink, senior vice president and general manager,
Business Critical Systems, HP."We continue to invest our engineering
resources in the development of thattechnology, while working with the
open source community to ensure accessibilityand seamless integration."

Increasing Linux performance and advancing productivity

Business demands for improved solutions are driving the Linux
kerneldevelopment community to focus on the advancement of file system
functionality.Currently, file systems are being developed through an
open community process.HP's contribution fuels these efforts.

"HP's contribution of the Advanced File System code, coupled with
theiroverall resource commitment to Linux, will greatly accelerate the
developmentand commercial availability of improved system functionality
for Linux," saidJim Zemlin, executive director, Linux Foundation. "The
technology andengineering resources being made available for
next-generation file systemprojects are proof that HP is a true open
source community leader."

Linux market leader

HP extended its worldwide lead in the Linux market with 38.6 percent
ofrevenue market share for the first quarter of 2008, according to IDC.
HP alsoholds the No. 1 Linux server market position in unit shipments,
with 36.4percent of market share worldwide.(1)

"HP's contribution accelerates the development of future Linux file
systems,ensuring enhanced system performance to meet our increasingly
demanding needs,"said Professor Giovanni Aloisio, chief executive
officer of the Italian SouthernPartnership for Advance Computational
Infrastructures (SPACI) in southern Italy."Linux is playing a
significant role in our building of a supercomputing gridenvironment
running HP Integrity servers. We have used many technologies overthe
years, including Tru64 UNIX with the Advanced File System, and
thisannouncement assures SPACI of continued Linux growth to conduct
significant newresearch."

The Tru64 UNIX Advanced File System source code, design documentation
and testsuites are available by visiting http://advfs.sourceforge.net.
More informationon open source and Linux at HP is available at
www.hp.com/go/linux.

About HP

HP focuses on simplifying technology experiences for all of its
customers -from individual consumers to the largest businesses. With a
portfolio that spansprinting, personal computing, software, services and
IT infrastructure, HP isamong the world's largest IT companies, with
revenue totaling $110.4 billion forthe four fiscal quarters ended April
30, 2008. More information about HP isavailable at www.hp.com.

Note to editors: More news from HP, including links to RSS feeds, is
availableat www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/.

(1) IDC Worldwide Quarterly Server Tracker, May 2008.

This news release contains forward-looking statements that involve
risks,uncertainties and assumptions to save bandwidth> ... warranty. HPshall not be liable for technical or
editorial errors or omissionscontained herein. CONTACT: HP
Dayna Fried, +1-949-240-2119 dayna.fried@hp.com
or Burson-Marsteller for HP Ali Kops,
+1-312-596-3428 ali.kops@bm.com or
HP Media Hotline, +1-866-266-7272 pr@hp.com
www.hp.com/go/newsroom SOURCE: HPCopyright Business Wire 2008

On Jun 24, 3:51 pm, JF Mezei wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
> >http://www.informationweek.com/news/...ce/showArticle....
>
> ##
> Tru64 is a 64-bit Unix operating system for the Alpha microprocessor
> architecture owned by HP. Tru64 was a product of Compaq, which was
> acquired by HP in 2002.
> ##
>
> No mention of Tru64 coming from Digital. No mention about Alpha having
> been murdered and Tru64 development having stopped in 2001.
>
> The last paragraph though is the best. Finally, a true reflection of
> HP's true intentions. And I bet The Stallards/Livermores of HP will
> applaud that paragraph instead of writing a letter to informationweek to
> deny it. (someone else already posted that paragraphs about HP migrating
> apps from VMS/Tru64 to HP-UX).
>
> This is the official HP press release about it: (Note that HP developped
> Tru64).
>
> ##
> HP Contributes Source Code to Open Source Community to Advance Adoption
> of Linux
> MainSMDS
>
> PALO ALTO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 23, 2008--
>
> Continuing its efforts to advance customer adoption of Linux, HP
> (NYSE:HPQ)today announced the contribution of its Tru64 UNIX Advanced
> File System (AdvFS)source code to the open source community.
>
> The AdvFS source code includes capabilities that increase uptime,
> enhancesecurity and help ensure maximum performance of Linux file
> systems. HP willcontribute the code as a reference implementation of an
> enterprise Linux filesystem under the terms of General Public License
> Version 2 for compatibilitywith the Linux kernel, as well as provide
> design documentation, test suites andengineering resources.
>
> Linux is one of the most prominent examples of free software and open
> sourcedevelopment, and source code continues to draw interest from
> developers, theuser community and customers. HP, which ships a Linux
> server at the rate of oneper minute, has long provided open source
> alternatives to customers andcontributed to the open source community to
> speed market development.
>
> The source code serves as a rich technology base to advance
> ongoingdevelopment of Linux by providing a comprehensive foundation for
> Linux kerneldevelopers to leverage and improve Linux file system
> functionality.
>
> Developed by HP, AdvFS has been deployed for more than 16 years by
> enterprisesthroughout the world. It simplifies file and storage
> management, enables onlinesystem backups and increases data
> availability. The integration of key AdvFSfile system features also
> accelerates the roadmap of future solutions designedto strengthen Linux
> for enterprise customers.
>
> "To ensure the highest levels of data security and availability,
> Linuxcustomers need full and immediate access to established
> technology," said MartinFink, senior vice president and general manager,
> Business Critical Systems, HP."We continue to invest our engineering
> resources in the development of thattechnology, while working with the
> open source community to ensure accessibilityand seamless integration."
>
> Increasing Linux performance and advancing productivity
>
> Business demands for improved solutions are driving the Linux
> kerneldevelopment community to focus on the advancement of file system
> functionality.Currently, file systems are being developed through an
> open community process.HP's contribution fuels these efforts.
>
> "HP's contribution of the Advanced File System code, coupled with
> theiroverall resource commitment to Linux, will greatly accelerate the
> developmentand commercial availability of improved system functionality
> for Linux," saidJim Zemlin, executive director, Linux Foundation. "The
> technology andengineering resources being made available for
> next-generation file systemprojects are proof that HP is a true open
> source community leader."
>
> Linux market leader
>
> HP extended its worldwide lead in the Linux market with 38.6 percent
> ofrevenue market share for the first quarter of 2008, according to IDC.
> HP alsoholds the No. 1 Linux server market position in unit shipments,
> with 36.4percent of market share worldwide.(1)
>
> "HP's contribution accelerates the development of future Linux file
> systems,ensuring enhanced system performance to meet our increasingly
> demanding needs,"said Professor Giovanni Aloisio, chief executive
> officer of the Italian SouthernPartnership for Advance Computational
> Infrastructures (SPACI) in southern Italy."Linux is playing a
> significant role in our building of a supercomputing gridenvironment
> running HP Integrity servers. We have used many technologies overthe
> years, including Tru64 UNIX with the Advanced File System, and
> thisannouncement assures SPACI of continued Linux growth to conduct
> significant newresearch."
>
> The Tru64 UNIX Advanced File System source code, design documentation
> and testsuites are available by visitinghttp://advfs.sourceforge.net.
> More informationon open source and Linux at HP is available atwww.hp.com/go/linux.
>
> About HP
>
> HP focuses on simplifying technology experiences for all of its
> customers -from individual consumers to the largest businesses. With a
> portfolio that spansprinting, personal computing, software, services and
> IT infrastructure, HP isamong the world's largest IT companies, with
> revenue totaling $110.4 billion forthe four fiscal quarters ended April
> 30, 2008. More information about HP isavailable atwww.hp.com.
>
> Note to editors: More news from HP, including links to RSS feeds, is
> availableatwww.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/.
>
> (1) IDC Worldwide Quarterly Server Tracker, May 2008.
>
> This news release contains forward-looking statements that involve
> risks,uncertainties and assumptions > to save bandwidth> ... warranty. HPshall not be liable for technical or
> editorial errors or omissionscontained herein. CONTACT: HP
> Dayna Fried, +1-949-240-2119 dayna.fr...@hp.com
> or Burson-Marsteller for HP Ali Kops,
> +1-312-596-3428 ali.k...@bm.com or
> HP Media Hotline, +1-866-266-7272 p...@hp.comwww.hp.com/go/newsroom SOURCE: HPCopyright Business Wire 2008


JF,

WADR, I disagree with your comment concerning the last paragraph. This
single reference to OpenVMS is likely an example of a mis-
understanding of the situation or an echo of an earlier, incorrect
published account.

If that was the case, the general session at the HP Technology Forum
would have been flooded with slides promoting HP/UX. In fact, the
slides during the warm-up period of the general session were
overwhelmingly dominated by OpenVMS 30th Anniversary and StorageWorks
displays.

Sourcing is everything in journalism and intelligence. One of the
ongoing problems with technical issues is that errors creep in. In the
health field, there is a well-documented problem with reporters
writing articles based upon press releases from research
organizations, without an understanding of the underlying paper or
phenomenon. Some writers go into the depths of the material to be able
to write a good explanation for the general public, and some do not.
The technical/business press is no different.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

On 24 Jun, 20:51, JF Mezei wrote:
> John Smith wrote:
> >http://www.informationweek.com/news/...ce/showArticle....
>
> ##
> Tru64 is a 64-bit Unix operating system for the Alpha microprocessor
> architecture owned by HP. Tru64 was a product of Compaq, which was
> acquired by HP in 2002.
> ##
>
> No mention of Tru64 coming from Digital. No mention about Alpha having
> been murdered and Tru64 development having stopped in 2001.
>
> The last paragraph though is the best. Finally, a true reflection of
> HP's true intentions. And I bet The Stallards/Livermores of HP will
> applaud that paragraph instead of writing a letter to informationweek to
> deny it. (someone else already posted that paragraphs about HP migrating
> apps from VMS/Tru64 to HP-UX).
>
> This is the official HP press release about it: (Note that HP developped
> Tru64).
>
> ##
> HP Contributes Source Code to Open Source Community to Advance Adoption
> of Linux
> MainSMDS
>
> PALO ALTO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 23, 2008--
>
> Continuing its efforts to advance customer adoption of Linux, HP
> (NYSE:HPQ)today announced the contribution of its Tru64 UNIX Advanced
> File System (AdvFS)source code to the open source community.
>
> The AdvFS source code includes capabilities that increase uptime,
> enhancesecurity and help ensure maximum performance of Linux file
> systems. HP willcontribute the code as a reference implementation of an
> enterprise Linux filesystem under the terms of General Public License
> Version 2 for compatibilitywith the Linux kernel, as well as provide
> design documentation, test suites andengineering resources.
>
> Linux is one of the most prominent examples of free software and open
> sourcedevelopment, and source code continues to draw interest from
> developers, theuser community and customers. HP, which ships a Linux
> server at the rate of oneper minute, has long provided open source
> alternatives to customers andcontributed to the open source community to
> speed market development.
>
> The source code serves as a rich technology base to advance
> ongoingdevelopment of Linux by providing a comprehensive foundation for
> Linux kerneldevelopers to leverage and improve Linux file system
> functionality.
>
> Developed by HP, AdvFS has been deployed for more than 16 years by
> enterprisesthroughout the world. It simplifies file and storage
> management, enables onlinesystem backups and increases data
> availability. The integration of key AdvFSfile system features also
> accelerates the roadmap of future solutions designedto strengthen Linux
> for enterprise customers.
>
> "To ensure the highest levels of data security and availability,
> Linuxcustomers need full and immediate access to established
> technology," said MartinFink, senior vice president and general manager,
> Business Critical Systems, HP."We continue to invest our engineering
> resources in the development of thattechnology, while working with the
> open source community to ensure accessibilityand seamless integration."
>
> * *Increasing Linux performance and advancing productivity
>
> Business demands for improved solutions are driving the Linux
> kerneldevelopment community to focus on the advancement of file system
> functionality.Currently, file systems are being developed through an
> open community process.HP's contribution fuels these efforts.
>
> "HP's contribution of the Advanced File System code, coupled with
> theiroverall resource commitment to Linux, will greatly accelerate the
> developmentand commercial availability of improved system functionality
> for Linux," saidJim Zemlin, executive director, Linux Foundation. "The
> technology andengineering resources being made available for
> next-generation file systemprojects are proof that HP is a true open
> source community leader."
>
> * *Linux market leader
>
> HP extended its worldwide lead in the Linux market with 38.6 percent
> ofrevenue market share for the first quarter of 2008, according to IDC.
> HP alsoholds the No. 1 Linux server market position in unit shipments,
> with 36.4percent of market share worldwide.(1)
>
> "HP's contribution accelerates the development of future Linux file
> systems,ensuring enhanced system performance to meet our increasingly
> demanding needs,"said Professor Giovanni Aloisio, chief executive
> officer of the Italian SouthernPartnership for Advance Computational
> Infrastructures (SPACI) in southern Italy."Linux is playing a
> significant role in our building of a supercomputing gridenvironment
> running HP Integrity servers. We have used many technologies overthe
> years, including Tru64 UNIX with the Advanced File System, and
> thisannouncement assures SPACI of continued Linux growth to conduct
> significant newresearch."
>
> The Tru64 UNIX Advanced File System source code, design documentation
> and testsuites are available by visitinghttp://advfs.sourceforge.net.
> More informationon open source and Linux at HP is available atwww.hp.com/go/linux.
>
> * *About HP
>
> HP focuses on simplifying technology experiences for all of its
> customers -from individual consumers to the largest businesses. With a
> portfolio that spansprinting, personal computing, software, services and
> IT infrastructure, HP isamong the world's largest IT companies, with
> revenue totaling $110.4 billion forthe four fiscal quarters ended April
> 30, 2008. More information about HP isavailable atwww.hp.com.
>
> Note to editors: More news from HP, including links to RSS feeds, is
> availableatwww.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/.
>
> * *(1) IDC Worldwide Quarterly Server Tracker, May 2008.
>
> This news release contains forward-looking statements that involve
> risks,uncertainties and assumptions > to save bandwidth> ... warranty. HPshall not be liable for technical or
> editorial errors or omissionscontained herein. * *CONTACT: HP
> * Dayna Fried, +1-949-240-2119 * * * * * * dayna.fr...@hp.com
> * or * * * * * * Burson-Marsteller for HP * * * * * * Ali Kops,
> +1-312-596-3428 * * * * * * ali.k...@bm.com * * * * * * or
> HP Media Hotline, +1-866-266-7272 * * * * * * p...@hp.comwww.hp.com/go/newsroom* *SOURCE: HPCopyright Business Wire 2008

HP developed Tru64 and AdvFS in the same way that all of the former
Digital and Compaq employees will explain their background as being HP
employees for all of that employment time.

HP "merged" with Compaq, Compaq bought Digital. There is no more
Digital and there is no more Compaq brand name. It is all HP.

As is commented by some, "We are all HP now".

etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> HP developed Tru64 and AdvFS in the same way that all of the former
> Digital and Compaq employees will explain their background as being HP
> employees for all of that employment time.

Since the death of Tru64 was announced in Sept 7th 2001 (merger
announcement), and the official HP takeover of Compaq was formalised on
May 7th 2002, HP got an already dead product, just like Alpha. The word
"developped" just doesn't fit well.

"HP inherited Tru64" would be far more accurate. Same with Alpha.

Did AOL develop Time Magazine ?

JF Mezei wrote:
> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>
>> HP developed Tru64 and AdvFS in the same way that all of the former
>> Digital and Compaq employees will explain their background as
>> being HP employees for all of that employment time.
>
>
> Since the death of Tru64 was announced in Sept 7th 2001 (merger
> announcement), and the official HP takeover of Compaq was formalised
> on May 7th 2002, HP got an already dead product, just like Alpha. The
> word "developped" just doesn't fit well.
>
> "HP inherited Tru64" would be far more accurate. Same with Alpha.
>
> Did AOL develop Time Magazine ?

Probably, but the announcement is one of the most thoughtfull things
i've heard from hp for ages. Not so much what's been done, but in attitude.

I wonder if they could be persuaded to make the whole of Tru64 open
source, so we can have a decent os to run on Alpha :-), plus possible
ports to other architectures ?. Tru64 was one of the most modern unices
around and could be developed considerably by the open source community,
in much the same way as Solaris has been recently...

Chris

ChrisQ wrote:

> Probably, but the announcement is one of the most thoughtfull things
> i've heard from hp for ages. Not so much what's been done, but in attitude.

Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge over
other modern Unixes ?

To put it more bluntly: Is HP releasing legacy software to open source,
or does its file system still have competitive advantages ?

If DEC Unix' file system still has a big edge over others Unixes, it
makes this an interesting move since HP is giving away a technology that
would be better than its own HP-UX.

Any thoughts on whether this would mke it to mainstream Linux
distributions ? Or would it remain a rarely used add-on file system
without wide distribution ?

JF Mezei wrote:
> ChrisQ wrote:
>
>
>> Probably, but the announcement is one of the most thoughtfull
>> things i've heard from hp for ages. Not so much what's been done,
>> but in attitude.
>
>
> Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge over
> other modern Unixes ?
>
> To put it more bluntly: Is HP releasing legacy software to open
> source, or does its file system still have competitive advantages ?
>
> If DEC Unix' file system still has a big edge over others Unixes, it
> makes this an interesting move since HP is giving away a technology
> that would be better than its own HP-UX.
>
> Any thoughts on whether this would mke it to mainstream Linux
> distributions ? Or would it remain a rarely used add-on file system
> without wide distribution ?

Whatever the reason, it's an interesting move, though istr reading about
Sun making it's new zfs filesystem available for Linux. If that is the
case, the cynical might suggest that the hp move is a me-too. Who knows.

I ran Tru64 on Alpha for nearly ten years up until late last year, using
built from source gnu tools, but the lack of applications (read open
source) and further direction meant that I eventually had to bite the
bullet and port everything to Solaris 10. I would add that the Sparc
replacement is still not as fast interactively as the Alpha it replaces,
though it is good enough.

As for comparisons, I don't know enough about the filesystems internal
design of either to comment - I used ufs in the tru64 days. There are
very few original ideas around and most designers borrow bits or
concepts from a variety of sources to build new products, or just to
stimulate the creative process. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn
that Sun had a good hard look at AdvFs internals during the zfs design
phase...

Chris

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:55:48 -0700, ChrisQ wrote:

> Probably, but the announcement is one of the most thoughtfull things
> i've heard from hp for ages. Not so much what's been done, but in
> attitude.
>
Before we gush too much about this, note that HP has essentially gone to
EMC for the file system for HP-UX, so AdvFS is somewhat superfluous


--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

In article <4863ea84$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
>
> Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge over
> other modern Unixes ?

I don't know about the file system, but the kernel had clustering
modeled on VMScluster technology (there's a lot more to that than
file access).

HP tried, but couldn't port that from the Tru64 kernel to the HP-UX
kernel. To me, evidence of the poor state of the HP-UX kernel.

So, of course, HP walked away from the superior product.

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <4863ea84$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> writes:
>
>> Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge
>> over other modern Unixes ?
>
>
> I don't know about the file system, but the kernel had clustering
> modeled on VMScluster technology (there's a lot more to that than
> file access).
>
> HP tried, but couldn't port that from the Tru64 kernel to the HP-UX
> kernel. To me, evidence of the poor state of the HP-UX kernel.
>
> So, of course, HP walked away from the superior product.
>

At the time that it was being seriously developed, 5 or more years ago,
it was streets ahead of solaris. In all kinds of ways that made it easier
for the user and administrator. For example, the choice of sysv or bsd
environments, filesystems, device support, networking. Programming, for
example: ansi C compiler bundled with the distribution, all the headers
and libraries for X etc where you would expect to find them and it was R6,
unlike solaris, where you needed to put loads of links in place to compile X
applications. I only used hp-ux briefly as a user, but remember it being
hard work, with little added value and nothing where you would expect to
find it. May be better now, but iirc, hp-ux originally came from the
remains of Apollo Domain, which always was a bit odd. Tru64 was written
from the start to be a modern, secure, 3nd generation unix, but I
guess it was never a possibility that hp would dump their own product, no
matter how much better / potential Tru64 had.

Now, the rest of the world has caught up and o/s's like Solaris have just
about everything you could wish for in a modern unix, irritating though
it may be to admit it. The world of computing moves on, and rarely takes
prisoners...

Regards,

Chris

..

In article ,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:

> In article <4863ea84$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> writes:
> >
> > Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge over
> > other modern Unixes ?
>
> I don't know about the file system, but the kernel had clustering
> modeled on VMScluster technology (there's a lot more to that than
> file access).
>
> HP tried, but couldn't port that from the Tru64 kernel to the HP-UX
> kernel. To me, evidence of the poor state of the HP-UX kernel.

Gee and I thought we had ported TruCluster and AdvFS to HP-UX. I
guess it was all a "Dream" and Digital was never acquired by
Compaq, and HP didn't absorb Compaq, and HP didn't layoff 300
developers. But I'm awake now, so why don't they let me into ZKO
anymore? :-(

Going to Field Test, polishing the code, resolving the active
bugs, and releasing the product is what didn't happen. We were
demoing the technology running on HP-UX. Confidence and moral was
high that we would finish, that is until the last month or so when
we knew they were going to lay us off.

My opinion is that the non-release was due to political
in-fighting, and a bad quarter was the wedge used to cancel the
porting project and unload 300 employees.

> So, of course, HP walked away from the superior product.

I'm sure they didn't look at it that way. I figure rest of the
HP-UX group knew their product and didn't know anything about
Tru64 UNIX or why TruClusters was a great product.

Bob Harris

ChrisQ schrieb:

> At the time that it was being seriously developed, 5 or more years ago,
> it was streets ahead of solaris. In all kinds of ways that made it easier
> for the user and administrator. For example, the choice of sysv or bsd
> environments, filesystems, device support, networking. Programming, for
> example: ansi C compiler bundled with the distribution,

DEC Unices still coming with a C (but not C++) compiler is indeed
a singularity in Unix-Land and of course welcome.
But with modern Unices there's no necessity to recompile the kernel,
so the C-compiler disappeared and has to be ordered as a separate
product. Only HP-UX has a crippled (== useless) cc left to
"build the kernel".

> all the headers
> and libraries for X etc where you would expect to find them and it was R6,
> unlike solaris, where you needed to put loads of links in place to
> compile X applications.

Don't think so. I never had problems of this kind.
In fact it is HP-UX which doesn't come with X11/Motif headers,
which is quite a nuisance.
In former times you even had to order them separately as
part of a codeword-secured "Developers Toolkit",
nowadays you can at least download them from HP's website.

> I only used hp-ux briefly as a user, but remember it being
> hard work, with little added value and nothing where you would expect to
> find it.

Depends on your expectations.

> May be better now, but iirc, hp-ux originally came from the
> remains of Apollo Domain,

No. HP-UX has its own roots. Apollo was absorbed by HP
around 1989, and guess what, Domain disappeared soon after.
Sounds familiar ?

> which always was a bit odd.

Sure. As is VMS. Domain isn't really Unix, just similar.

> Tru64 was written
> from the start to be a modern, secure, 3nd generation unix,

But it came way too late, just as Alpha.

> but I
> guess it was never a possibility that hp would dump their own product,

no surprise here.

Bob Harris wrote:

> Going to Field Test, polishing the code, resolving the active
> bugs, and releasing the product is what didn't happen. We were
> demoing the technology running on HP-UX. Confidence and moral was
> high that we would finish, that is until the last month or so when
> we knew they were going to lay us off.

I had no idea it had gone that far. But it was always clear to me that
when they announced the end of Tru64 on HP-UX, it was really about
striking a deal with Veritas or whatever the company was.

I wonder how much they will contribute to the blonde bimbo's election
campaign. At this time, would Veritas have felt threathened by the Tru64
file system ? Could this have resulted in Veritas losing much business ?
If so, Veritas may have given the blonde bimbo a deal she could refuse
in exchange for killing the porting of Tru64 to HP-UX.


In terms of technical stuff, was endianness an issue that consumed much
time for the port ?

Michael Kraemer wrote:

> But with modern Unices there's no necessity to recompile the kernel,
> so the C-compiler disappeared and has to be ordered as a separate
> product. Only HP-UX has a crippled (== useless) cc left to
> "build the kernel".


OS-X is a modern Unix and it comes with C as well as "objective C" as
part of the developer installation (comes on the same DVD).

In article <486cb87d$0$15580$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
writes:
>
> OS-X is a modern Unix and it comes with C as well as "objective C" as
> part of the developer installation (comes on the same DVD).

IIRC it didn't "come" with the OS, I had to download all developer stuff
from Apple's web pages. But that was for 10.3.9, maybe it has changed since.

On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:38:19 -0700, Michael Kraemer
wrote:

> No. HP-UX has its own roots. Apollo was absorbed by HP
> around 1989, and guess what, Domain disappeared soon after.
> Sounds familiar ?

HP-UX has strong roots in BSD. HP, Apollo and Digital were all
founding members of OSF which was to have standardised on the
Mach (?) kernel, but I think internal politics in HP won out and
they did their own dilletante version, proabaly Motif was about
the only thing trhey used out of OSF.

--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com

In article <486cb741$0$15580$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
JF Mezei wrote:

> Bob Harris wrote:
>
> > Going to Field Test, polishing the code, resolving the active
> > bugs, and releasing the product is what didn't happen. We were
> > demoing the technology running on HP-UX. Confidence and moral was
> > high that we would finish, that is until the last month or so when
> > we knew they were going to lay us off.
>
> I had no idea it had gone that far. But it was always clear to me that
> when they announced the end of Tru64 on HP-UX, it was really about
> striking a deal with Veritas or whatever the company was.
>
> I wonder how much they will contribute to the blonde bimbo's election
> campaign. At this time, would Veritas have felt threathened by the Tru64
> file system ? Could this have resulted in Veritas losing much business ?
> If so, Veritas may have given the blonde bimbo a deal she could refuse
> in exchange for killing the porting of Tru64 to HP-UX.

While I did not think Carly was a good CEO, I do not think she was
the cause of the TruCluster/AdvFS port cancelation. To the best
of my knowledge she is the one that initially pushed porting
TruCluster/AdvFS on the HP-UX group. It was the HP-UX group that
fought the port. It was the HP-UX managers that were doing the
in-fighting.

> In terms of technical stuff, was endianness an issue that consumed much
> time for the port ?

Michael Kraemer wrote:
>
> DEC Unices still coming with a C (but not C++) compiler is indeed a
> singularity in Unix-Land and of course welcome. But with modern
> Unices there's no necessity to recompile the kernel, so the
> C-compiler disappeared and has to be ordered as a separate product.
> Only HP-UX has a crippled (== useless) cc left to "build the kernel".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A quality ansi standard C compiler is very usefull, especially if you
need to (for example) build all the gnu tools. Though binaries might
have been available, I always find it good practice to build everything
from scratch, to find your way around the system and to impose youir own
structure on it all. I do mainly embedded work here and Tru64 and
Alpha was never a supported platfrom by the gnu tools in a cross
environment, so you had to roll your own. Trying to do that with the
usually broken cc that comes with many unices was a nonstarter. You
might ask, why do embedded development on Alpha ?, but the
sheer interactive speed and compile performance of alpha was just so
seductive compared to Pc's and Sparc offerings at the time, just
didn't want to use anything else. That + a long history working with dec
kit etc. You can't expect the suits to understand all that, but if
technical excellence, design flair and sound engineering doesn't drive
progress, what does ?.

>> Tru64 was written from the start to be a modern, secure, 3nd
>> generation unix,
>
>
> But it came way too late, just as Alpha.

Here we must disagree - Alpha wasn't too late in the early to mid
nineties. It was doing very well thanks and world class, but I
musn't get started on that thread again :-). What's dead is dead and the
world moves on...

Regards,

Chris

ChrisQ wrote in news:0tw9k.207380$M63.111047
@newsfe13.ams2:

> design of either to comment - I used ufs in the tru64 days. There are
> very few original ideas around and most designers borrow bits or
> concepts from a variety of sources to build new products, or just to
> stimulate the creative process. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn
> that Sun had a good hard look at AdvFs internals during the zfs design
> phase...

I'm a little late chiming in here, but Sun had a good hard look at WAFS
(amongst others). I don't know how the NetApp-Sun lawsuit is progressing
right now.

Antonio