Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems

I have been given the task of determining whether I should port/
rewrite a rather large HMI program from x-windows and 'C' to java.

I went through an install of java 1.5 on an rx2620 duo core with 3gb
ram, a radeon video card, mouse, keyboard, and OpenVMS 8.3. I followed
the patching and tuning recommendation from the java release notes and
from the java$check_environment.com DCL file. I then started running
the jdk demo applications to get an idea of java performance versus
the same applications running on an 2.8ghz P4 XP PC with 256mb of ram.

The performance of these java apps on the OpenVMS ia64 system was
extremely poor as compared to a much slower PC running XP. I followed
these tests up with a re-tune of the VMS authorize and sysgen
parameters, taking these parameters from their recommended values to
ridiculously large values (1gb wsquo, wsmax 1gb, everything big). The
performance of these apps got better, but had lots of rough spots.

For example, the java2d app has a tabbed dialog where each tab
displayed different classes of graphics operations. When the app ran,
the graphics operations ran OK, but when I tried to select a different
dialog tab, it took 4 minutes 30 seconds (clock time) to switch dialog
tabs and start the display of the new graphics operations. Once the
tab was fully rendered, the new graphics operations ran at a
reasonable speed.

I tried to get help from HP by sending en email to [email]java-bugs@hp.com[/email]
and exchanged some email with an HP engineer. The engineer blamed the
applications, and not java. I pointed out that these applications came
with the JDK, but that made no difference.

I also tried to use the java plugin with the CSWB/Mozilla. I tried to
display and operator a web page with embedded java. In my case, it was
an hp procurve managed switch management interface web page. These
simple html/java pages hung after a few java apps were loaded and run.
The HP engineer point to the procurve web page which was generated in
2000 and specified that only IE5 and the MSVM could be used to display
the procure pages (lame excuse from HP).

What I am looking for (I guess) is guidance from experienced people on
how to get performance out of java under OpenVMS Ia64 and Alpha
systems. I need access to better information than what HP chooses to
provide.

I could use the following:

1) VMS tuning advice for java. What are typical authorize and sysgen
values for java usage.

2) More example applications to test with. My application will be a
rather large app and the demo apps that come with the JDK are not.

3) Suggest some URL's, books, etc that will guide me.

Also, anyone who is willing to describe their experience in using java
with OpenVMS and have a conversation with me on or off-line,
please ...

All help will be appreciated and acknowledged.

Mjjerabek

On Sep 27, 8:56 pm, mjjerabek <mjjera...@gmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> I have been given the task of determining whether I should port/
> rewrite a rather large HMI program from x-windows and 'C' to java.
>[/color]
[...snip...][color=blue]
>
> Also, anyone who is willing to describe their experience in using java
> with OpenVMS and have a conversation with me on or off-line,
> please ...
>
> All help will be appreciated and acknowledged.
>
> Mjjerabek[/color]

I have tried to use Java on VMS on several occassions
and decided it just wasn't worth the effort.
Performance is abyssmal (This on an Alpha with all the
recommended settings etc.)

Dave

In article <1190926567.435722.56090@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, mjjerabek <mjjerabek@gmail.com> writes:[color=blue]
>
> Also, anyone who is willing to describe their experience in using java
> with OpenVMS and have a conversation with me on or off-line,
> please ...[/color]

I've been pleased with the performance of my Java applications on
my much slower DEC 3000 Model 600S. But I don't do GUI applications,
I do command line applications.

I suspect you're running into issues with the Java GUI <-> X11
layers. The applicaitons may have been tuned to deal with Java
GUI <-> MS Windows.

But HP does not see VMS as a desktop OS so they haven't paid much
attention to GUI issues and I don't think they will.

In article <1191301246.105660.118440@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, [email]thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr[/email] writes:[color=blue]
>
> I have ported on OpenVMS a lot of java desktop applications using the
> swing interface. Most perform correctly: the startup is slow because
> of the slowness of the OpenVMS filesystem but after the response times
> are fair. Some applications with heavy swing interfaces are very slow
> (example: iREport 2.0) on my rx1620 2GB ram. I have always diagnosed a
> memory-related problem. In this case I apply the following strategy :[/color]

Startup times can be terrible because of the way some Java
applications are packaged. I've started apps that pushed
channelcnt, which I'd raised to 4K because the JDK installation
asked me to do so.

This may also be due to the way the JRE is implemented, as multiple
references to classes in the same .zip or .jar look like they each
open the file.

On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:00:46 -0700, <thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Note that the architecture of Itanium and Java are big memory
> consumers. 256 Mb ram on Intel x86 32bits is roughly equivalent to 4
> Gb ram on Itanium.[/color]

How would you compare it Alpha?

--
PL/I for OpenVMS
[url]www.kednos.com[/url]

On 3 oct, 15:22, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> wrote:[color=blue]
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:00:46 -0700, <thierry....@wanadoo.fr> wrote:[color=green]
> > Note that the architecture of Itanium and Java are big memory
> > consumers. 256 Mb ram on Intel x86 32bits is roughly equivalent to 4
> > Gb ram on Itanium.[/color]
>
> How would you compare it Alpha?
>
> --
> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com[/color]


~ 1 Gb ram on Alpha

On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:54:09 -0700, <thierry.uso@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On 3 oct, 15:22, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> wrote:[color=green]
>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:00:46 -0700, <thierry....@wanadoo.fr> wrote:[color=darkred]
>> > Note that the architecture of Itanium and Java are big memory
>> > consumers. 256 Mb ram on Intel x86 32bits is roughly equivalent to 4
>> > Gb ram on Itanium.[/color]
>>
>> How would you compare it Alpha?
>>
>> --
>> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com[/color]
>
>
> ~ 1 Gb ram on Alpha
>[/color]
Makes you wonder where mangement was at the first design review. Reminds
me of
an event at Boeing in the mid 60s, A team was presenting their concept
for a new
aircraft, when a VP asked one of them how many engines there were, the
presenter
responded 5, The VP told him to sit down, "We don't build aircraft with 5
engines"



--
PL/I for OpenVMS
[url]www.kednos.com[/url]

mjjerabek wrote:[color=blue]
> I went through an install of java 1.5 on an rx2620 duo core with 3gb
> ram, a radeon video card, mouse, keyboard, and OpenVMS 8.3. I followed
> the patching and tuning recommendation from the java release notes and
> from the java$check_environment.com DCL file. I then started running
> the jdk demo applications to get an idea of java performance versus
> the same applications running on an 2.8ghz P4 XP PC with 256mb of ram.
>
> The performance of these java apps on the OpenVMS ia64 system was
> extremely poor as compared to a much slower PC running XP. I followed
> these tests up with a re-tune of the VMS authorize and sysgen
> parameters, taking these parameters from their recommended values to
> ridiculously large values (1gb wsquo, wsmax 1gb, everything big). The
> performance of these apps got better, but had lots of rough spots.
>
> For example, the java2d app has a tabbed dialog where each tab
> displayed different classes of graphics operations. When the app ran,
> the graphics operations ran OK, but when I tried to select a different
> dialog tab, it took 4 minutes 30 seconds (clock time) to switch dialog
> tabs and start the display of the new graphics operations. Once the
> tab was fully rendered, the new graphics operations ran at a
> reasonable speed.[/color]
[color=blue]
> What I am looking for (I guess) is guidance from experienced people on
> how to get performance out of java under OpenVMS Ia64 and Alpha
> systems. I need access to better information than what HP chooses to
> provide.[/color]

In my experience Java works OK on VMS.

If you:
- specify FAST JVM
- gives is lots of ressources
it seems to work fine.

The FAST JVM is pretty good.

But note that this is server usage. Not GUI usage.

I would not be surprised if GUI performance sucks.

I doubt much optimization energy has been put into it.
[color=blue]
> I could use the following:
>
> 1) VMS tuning advice for java. What are typical authorize and sysgen
> values for java usage.
>
> 2) More example applications to test with. My application will be a
> rather large app and the demo apps that come with the JDK are not.
>
> 3) Suggest some URL's, books, etc that will guide me.[/color]

I can run a single user hello world complexity app on JBoss with:

Maxjobs: 0 Fillm: 5000 Bytlm: 750000
Maxacctjobs: 0 Shrfillm: 0 Pbytlm: 0
Maxdetach: 0 BIOlm: 1000 JTquota: 4096
Prclm: 10 DIOlm: 100 WSdef: 4000
Prio: 4 ASTlm: 250 WSquo: 16000
Queprio: 0 TQElm: 20 WSextent: 64000
CPU: (none) Enqlm: 2000 Pgflquo: 768000

and:

java -server -Xmx128m

It should obviously get much more memory.

For other platforms I would suggest:
- small app 64m-128m
- large app 256m-512m
- really large app 768m-1024m
- server app (32 bit) 1.5g and crying
- server app (64 bit) 2g-8g
which gives an idea about the environment Java itself and Java apps
are written to run in.

Arne

Tom Linden wrote:[color=blue]
> Could also be a poor implementation of Java. Isn't it an interpreter?
> Takes
> some skill (and good design) to write a good interpreter.[/color]

I would assume the FAST JVM is using JIT compilation.

Arne

JF Mezei wrote:[color=blue]
> Has JAVA ever been accused of having good performance ?
>
> Back then, people were complaining about ALLIN1 being a hog. Looks to me
> that JAVA is orders of magnitudes slower and more resource hungry.[/color]

If you consider performance as "number crunching", then newer (less
than 5 years old) perform quite well on most platforms.

Seen from a traditional VMS point of view then Java uses
ridiculous amounts of memory.

Compared to the standard in the x86 world it is not that bad.

Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for
Vista 64 bit improves 4-8 GB will be common). And why not - a GB
cost about 50 USD.

Arne

On 10/20/07 22:38, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
[snip][color=blue]
>
> Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for[/color]

You're kidding, right?

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

Ron Johnson wrote:[color=blue]
> On 10/20/07 22:38, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> [snip][color=green]
>> Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for[/color]
>
> You're kidding, right?[/color]

No.

You will not want to run Vista on less than 2 GB.

You will need more if you need to run big apps.

Arne

Ron Johnson wrote:[color=blue]
> On 10/20/07 22:38, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> [snip]
>[color=green]
>>Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for[/color]
>
>
> You're kidding, right?
>[/color]

Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be sufficient.

> -----Original Message-----[color=blue]
> From: Richard B. Gilbert [mailto:rgilbert88@comcast.net]
> Sent: October 21, 2007 7:37 AM
> To: [email]Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com[/email]
> Subject: Re: Guidance with OpenVMS IA64 8.3 with Java 1.5 Problems
>
> Ron Johnson wrote:[color=green]
> > On 10/20/07 22:38, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> > [snip]
> >[color=darkred]
> >>Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for[/color]
> >
> >
> > You're kidding, right?
> >[/color]
>
> Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be
> sufficient.[/color]

Well, fwiw, a colleague is running 3GB memory on his new duo cpu laptop with Vista and he is frustrated that it is still slower than his old laptop with XP.

As most readers of this list know, memory is only one of the issues associated with making stuff run well on a multi CPU system. Tuned application andOS support of features such as threading, SMP interlocking, CPU cache thrashing are but a few of other things that if not implemented very well will result in dismal overall performance.

How many desktop App's and Vista OS kernel things have been fine tuned to handle these types of things?

Some games? Perhaps, but then there are the graphic and NIC drivers on top of them as well.

Regards


Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-592-4660
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)

OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.

In article <471ac795$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
[color=blue]
> mjjerabek wrote:[color=green]
> > I went through an install of java 1.5 on an rx2620 duo core with 3gb
> > ram, a radeon video card, mouse, keyboard, and OpenVMS 8.3. I followed
> > the patching and tuning recommendation from the java release notes and
> > from the java$check_environment.com DCL file. I then started running
> > the jdk demo applications to get an idea of java performance versus
> > the same applications running on an 2.8ghz P4 XP PC with 256mb of ram.
> >
> > The performance of these java apps on the OpenVMS ia64 system was
> > extremely poor as compared to a much slower PC running XP. I followed
> > these tests up with a re-tune of the VMS authorize and sysgen
> > parameters, taking these parameters from their recommended values to
> > ridiculously large values (1gb wsquo, wsmax 1gb, everything big). The
> > performance of these apps got better, but had lots of rough spots.[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
>
> In my experience Java works OK on VMS.
>
> If you:
> - specify FAST JVM
> - gives is lots of ressources
> it seems to work fine.
>
> The FAST JVM is pretty good.[/color]

Which doesn't help him on Itanium, where he performed his tests, as
there is no Fast VM (nor "classic" for that matter). Whether the
Hotspot JVM on IA64 is as good or better than the Alpha Fast VM I don't
know, but the OP should really try his tests on Alpha and figure out
whether he has a Java problem or an Itanium problem or some
combination. Like everything else on Itanium, the JVM probably
requires more memory than on Alpha. Supposedly IA64 images are three
times as large as Alpha images, so memory requirements for JIT would
also probably be much greater.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:[color=blue]
> Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be sufficient.[/color]

If you were to buy a new today - how much RAM would that system have ?

Arne

On 10/21/07 06:36, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:[color=blue]
> Ron Johnson wrote:[color=green]
>> On 10/20/07 22:38, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> [snip]
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Typical home PC's have 2-4 GB (and when the driver situation for[/color]
>>
>>
>> You're kidding, right?
>>[/color]
>
> Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be sufficient.[/color]

Mine too.

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

On 10/21/07 19:26, Arne Vajhøj wrote:[color=blue]
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:[color=green]
>> Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be
>> sufficient.[/color]
>
> If you were to buy a new today - how much RAM would that system have ?[/color]

I'm strongly thinking of buying a new PC, and it will have 1 or 2GB
RAM, but only because I want to run Oracle on it in a semi-realistic
manner. Otherwise, it would only have 1GB RAM.

And trailing edge video card. No need for a CPU beyond 2GHz, and
I'd only get dual-core because that's what's being sold most often,
and Oracle+desktop needs the extra oomph. Lots of disk space,
though. 750GB drives if I can afford them.

Of course, Vista won't come near this box. Linux all the way. And
XP runs perfectly well on the 512MB RAM Stinkpad I need to access
Exchange...

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

Arne Vajhøj wrote:[color=blue]
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Maybe HIS PC has that much RAM. Mine has 1GB which seems to be
>> sufficient.[/color]
>
>
> If you were to buy a new today - how much RAM would that system have ?
>
> Arne[/color]

If I were to buy a new PC today, I would call a friend who is a PC
wizard and ask him.

With W/XP 512 MB is enough and 1 GB is generous. I've never run Vista
and, God willing, never will!

Craig A. Berry <craigberry@mac.com.spamfooler> wrote:[color=blue]
> Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:[color=green]
>> In my experience Java works OK on VMS.
>>
>> If you:
>> - specify FAST JVM
>> - gives is lots of ressources
>> it seems to work fine.
>>
>> The FAST JVM is pretty good.[/color]
>
> Which doesn't help him on Itanium, where he performed his tests, as
> there is no Fast VM (nor "classic" for that matter). Whether the
> Hotspot JVM on IA64 is as good or better than the Alpha Fast VM I don't
> know, [...][/color]

Guy Peleg seems to have done extensive performance work with Java;
in the slides of one of his talks at the German OpenVMS Tech Update Days[1]
it says: "HotSpot on Itanium is *MUCH* better than FastVM on Alpha".

cu,
Martin

[1] Online at [url]http://de.openvms.org/TUD2007/Java_performance_on_OpenVMS.pdf[/url]
and
[url]http://www.hp-user-society.de/sig/vms/TUD/2007/slides/JavaPerformanceonOpenVMS.pdf[/url]
--
One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules!
One OS to find them | work: [email]mv@pdv-systeme.de[/email]
One OS to bring them all | [url]http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/[/url]
And in the Darkness bind them.| home: [email]martin.vorlaender@t-online.de[/email]