COBOL Transactions? - VMS

This is a discussion on COBOL Transactions? - VMS ; In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 08/24/07 08:18, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 08/23/07 20:02, Tom Linden wrote: >>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson >>>> wrote: ...

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Thread: COBOL Transactions?

  1. Re: COBOL Transactions?

    In article <4qEzi.90812$dI1.77306@newsfe08.phx>,
    Ron Johnson writes:
    > On 08/24/07 08:18, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> Ron Johnson writes:
    >>> On 08/23/07 20:02, Tom Linden wrote:
    >>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote:
    >>>>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson
    >>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file
    >>>>>>> handling
    >>>>>>> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of
    >>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though
    >>>>>>> it is
    >>>>>>> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for
    >>>>>>> the new
    >>>>>>> spec coming out...
    >>>>>> Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics.
    >>>>> Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks.
    >>>>>
    >>>> That would be PL/I BTW, you obviously know little about programming
    >>>> languages.
    >>> So you also say that PL/I sucks?
    >>>
    >>> (Just jerking your chain, Tom, since you are such a big booster of a
    >>> not-so-popular-anymore language. Was it ever very popular outside
    >>> the mainframe?)

    >>
    >> Minicomputers. Prime used it and much of the OS and utilites was written
    >> in PL/1 :-) and various subset dialects.

    >
    > Prime has been dead for how many years now? 15?
    >
    >> Microcomputers. PL/M (well, it may not be PL/1, but I think it qualifies
    >> as a dialect.)

    >
    > Who used PL/M besides DRI?


    According to Wikipaedia Gary Kildall developed it for Intel, so I would
    guess they did. It also states, "Also the firmware of the Service
    Processor component of CISC AS/400 was written in PL/M." so I guess IBM
    was using it, too.


    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  2. Re: COBOL Transactions?

    Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >
    >>-----Original Message-----
    >>From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com]
    >>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:11 PM
    >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >>Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions?
    >>
    >>Hi John,
    >>
    >>
    >>>Yep, I'm reading this (as well as the ITRC discussion). No, we don't
    >>>have any COMMIT like feature in our compilers. No current plans for
    >>>adding them.

    >>
    >>If Paul is hell bent on using COBOL verbs for transactions, isn't there
    >>always DBMS? Oracle still support (and probably even sell it). If on
    >>the
    >>other hand, you/ve moved on to Relational Databases then SQL does seem
    >>to be
    >>the most popular DML with the usual crappy precompilers for most
    >>languages.
    >>(Does Orrible Oracle support the SQL Module language?)
    >>

    >
    >
    > I'm hell bent on porting 678,000+ lines of code from a mainframe and/or
    > AS/400 environment to VMS. That SLOC count seems to keep growing as I busy
    > myself porting away at it. The small parts in Assembler and RPG I have not
    > even tried to address yet. They pretty obviously won't port. (*sigh*)
    >
    > It was startling to not find transaction support built into the language
    > under VMS, yes. Sort of like walking into a house you want to buy and
    > finding they forgot to include a bathroom. Very much so given the overall
    > very high quality of the compiler in question. (And there is no doubt about
    > it, it *is* a high quality compiler.)
    >
    > I admit to having IBM COBOL tunnel vision sometimes; IBM COBOL is just so
    > darn convenient, unless of course, you need to directly twiddle bits around.
    > Then just give up and drop into assembler to do it!
    >
    > Not being bundled is understandable though; I assume the RMS Dectm stuff is
    > owned by another department than the compiler department. Just odd when
    > viewed through COBOL tinted lenses is all.
    >
    >
    > I tend to agree with a lot of your other comments, snipped for brevity in
    > this particular reply.
    >
    > -Paul


    Hi Paul,

    Just a sanity check here... It sounds like you're porting an application
    for eventual resale to 3rd parties, which makes you a Software Provider in
    the context of the HP DSPP program. If you haven't signed up, do so!

    You get free [for some small value of "free"] licenses to most of HP's
    compilers and development tools, including RMS journaling (separate
    license on VAX and Alpha, part of MCOE which is included in the DSPP
    license set on Itanium) and lots of other stuff. This doesn't help your
    customers, but it's a great deal for you, especially if you are running
    on fumes because you don't have any customers yet.

    I don't know what an RMS journaling license costs a la carte, it might
    be helpful if someone posted here or if you could talk to a VMS Ambassador.
    RMS journaling is also included in the EOE package, which seems to add
    about $5300 to the base system list price for an rx2620. (From the HP
    web site, system configurator page.) You should be able to get a much
    better price from a reseller, or from HP if you sell lots of boxes.


    --
    John Santos
    Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    781-861-0670 ext 539

  3. Re: COBOL Transactions?

    On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:18:56 -0700, Ron Johnson
    wrote:

    > On 08/24/07 08:18, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> In article ,
    >> Ron Johnson writes:
    >>> On 08/23/07 20:02, Tom Linden wrote:
    >>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson
    >>>>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote:
    >>>>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file
    >>>>>>> handling
    >>>>>>> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part
    >>>>>>> of
    >>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords,
    >>>>>>> though
    >>>>>>> it is
    >>>>>>> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for
    >>>>>>> the new
    >>>>>>> spec coming out...
    >>>>>> Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics.
    >>>>> Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks.
    >>>>>
    >>>> That would be PL/I BTW, you obviously know little about programming
    >>>> languages.
    >>> So you also say that PL/I sucks?
    >>>
    >>> (Just jerking your chain, Tom, since you are such a big booster of a
    >>> not-so-popular-anymore language. Was it ever very popular outside
    >>> the mainframe?)

    >>
    >> Minicomputers. Prime used it and much of the OS and utilites was
    >> written
    >> in PL/1 :-) and various subset dialects.

    >
    > Prime has been dead for how many years now? 15?
    >
    >> Microcomputers. PL/M (well, it may not be PL/1, but I think it qualifies
    >> as a dialect.)

    >
    > Who used PL/M besides DRI?
    >

    Before Gary Kildall started DRI he did a stint at Intel where developed
    PL/M
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall
    He was also on the PL/I standards committee. It was the high level
    programming
    language at Intel for 8080 onward thru 8086 PL/M-86 was fairly widely
    distributed.



    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  4. RE: COBOL Transactions?


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: John Santos [mailto:john@egh.com]
    > Sent: August 24, 2007 4:34 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions?
    >


    [snip]

    > >
    > > I admit to having IBM COBOL tunnel vision sometimes; IBM COBOL is

    > just so
    > > darn convenient, unless of course, you need to directly twiddle bits

    > around.
    > > Then just give up and drop into assembler to do it!
    > >
    > > Not being bundled is understandable though; I assume the RMS Dectm

    > stuff is
    > > owned by another department than the compiler department. Just odd

    > when
    > > viewed through COBOL tinted lenses is all.
    > >
    > >
    > > I tend to agree with a lot of your other comments, snipped for

    > brevity in
    > > this particular reply.
    > >
    > > -Paul

    >
    > Hi Paul,
    >
    > Just a sanity check here... It sounds like you're porting an
    > application
    > for eventual resale to 3rd parties, which makes you a Software Provider
    > in
    > the context of the HP DSPP program. If you haven't signed up, do so!
    >
    > You get free [for some small value of "free"] licenses to most of HP's
    > compilers and development tools, including RMS journaling (separate
    > license on VAX and Alpha, part of MCOE which is included in the DSPP
    > license set on Itanium) and lots of other stuff. This doesn't help
    > your
    > customers, but it's a great deal for you, especially if you are running
    > on fumes because you don't have any customers yet.
    >
    > I don't know what an RMS journaling license costs a la carte, it might
    > be helpful if someone posted here or if you could talk to a VMS
    > Ambassador.
    > RMS journaling is also included in the EOE package, which seems to add
    > about $5300 to the base system list price for an rx2620. (From the HP
    > web site, system configurator page.) You should be able to get a much
    > better price from a reseller, or from HP if you sell lots of boxes.
    >
    >
    > --
    > John Santos
    > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    > 781-861-0670 ext 539


    Re: license considerations:

    Here is pretty good brochure on new Integrity licenses and what is in each FOE, EOE,
    MCOE level.

    http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downlo...A0-2321ENW.pdf

    And if there is any question as to what is supported, the SPD (software product
    description) is the legal doc that says What is officially supported. Reference:
    http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/XAV12X/XAV12XPF.PDF

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  5. RE: COBOL Transactions?



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: John Santos [mailto:john@egh.com]
    > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 3:34 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions?
    >
    > Hi Paul,
    >
    > Just a sanity check here... It sounds like you're porting an
    > application
    > for eventual resale to 3rd parties, which makes you a Software Provider
    > in
    > the context of the HP DSPP program. If you haven't signed up, do so!
    >
    > You get free [for some small value of "free"] licenses to most of HP's
    > compilers and development tools, including RMS journaling (separate
    > license on VAX and Alpha, part of MCOE which is included in the DSPP
    > license set on Itanium) and lots of other stuff. This doesn't help
    > your
    > customers, but it's a great deal for you, especially if you are running
    > on fumes because you don't have any customers yet.
    >
    > I don't know what an RMS journaling license costs a la carte, it might
    > be helpful if someone posted here or if you could talk to a VMS
    > Ambassador.
    > RMS journaling is also included in the EOE package, which seems to add
    > about $5300 to the base system list price for an rx2620. (From the HP
    > web site, system configurator page.) You should be able to get a much
    > better price from a reseller, or from HP if you sell lots of boxes.
    >
    >
    > --
    > John Santos
    > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    > 781-861-0670 ext 539


    Thank John - great advice. I did sign up with the DSPP program, which
    was really one of the things that convinced me to move ahead with a
    port. HP looks to be trying very hard to attract and support developers.

    Current customers are all on the mainframe or iSeries machines, which is
    partly why I tend to relate to those things, often to the aggravation of
    some long term VMS people, I understand. 8]

    It's really a lot of fun, I am in the stage where I stay up till my eyes
    just close of their own accord, and then I wake up an hour later with a
    different or better way to accomplish what I want to do.

    It's also a lot of fun to find "new" solutions for old problems. I could
    build
    a near mainframe equivalent environment with VMS, including transaction
    processing
    and all the good stuff. But it is fun to see if I can drive this into a
    solution
    set for the small small business crowd. Hard to compete with $500 PC's, at
    least
    until the people realize what they crappy "free" software that came with the
    PC, or
    the Windows Visual Basic database their brother-in-law wrote for them is
    really
    costing them.

    I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with significant
    software
    loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of my existing customers and
    floated the
    idea of moving to HP hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised
    me
    to no end how excited in fact!





  6. RE: COBOL Transactions?

    >Here is pretty good brochure on new Integrity licenses and what is in each
    FOE, EOE, MCOE level.
    >
    >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downlo...A0-2321ENW.pdf


    Aw gee Kerry- this is EXACTLY what I have been pestering people at HP for.
    All I need to add (so far), for the very small SMB customers, is RMS
    Journaling to the base package. This little nugget of information has helped
    to turn a pretty lousy week into a nice weekend...

    Thank you.
    -Paul

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com]
    > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 4:25 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions?
    >
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: John Santos [mailto:john@egh.com]
    > > Sent: August 24, 2007 4:34 PM
    > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions?
    > >

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > >
    > > > I admit to having IBM COBOL tunnel vision sometimes; IBM COBOL is

    > > just so
    > > > darn convenient, unless of course, you need to directly twiddle

    > bits
    > > around.
    > > > Then just give up and drop into assembler to do it!
    > > >
    > > > Not being bundled is understandable though; I assume the RMS Dectm

    > > stuff is
    > > > owned by another department than the compiler department. Just odd

    > > when
    > > > viewed through COBOL tinted lenses is all.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > I tend to agree with a lot of your other comments, snipped for

    > > brevity in
    > > > this particular reply.
    > > >
    > > > -Paul

    > >
    > > Hi Paul,
    > >
    > > Just a sanity check here... It sounds like you're porting an
    > > application
    > > for eventual resale to 3rd parties, which makes you a Software

    > Provider
    > > in
    > > the context of the HP DSPP program. If you haven't signed up, do so!
    > >
    > > You get free [for some small value of "free"] licenses to most of

    > HP's
    > > compilers and development tools, including RMS journaling (separate
    > > license on VAX and Alpha, part of MCOE which is included in the DSPP
    > > license set on Itanium) and lots of other stuff. This doesn't help
    > > your
    > > customers, but it's a great deal for you, especially if you are

    > running
    > > on fumes because you don't have any customers yet.
    > >
    > > I don't know what an RMS journaling license costs a la carte, it

    > might
    > > be helpful if someone posted here or if you could talk to a VMS
    > > Ambassador.
    > > RMS journaling is also included in the EOE package, which seems to

    > add
    > > about $5300 to the base system list price for an rx2620. (From the

    > HP
    > > web site, system configurator page.) You should be able to get a

    > much
    > > better price from a reseller, or from HP if you sell lots of boxes.
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > John Santos
    > > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    > > 781-861-0670 ext 539

    >
    > Re: license considerations:
    >
    > Here is pretty good brochure on new Integrity licenses and what is in
    > each FOE, EOE,
    > MCOE level.
    >
    > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downlo...A0-2321ENW.pdf
    >
    > And if there is any question as to what is supported, the SPD (software
    > product
    > description) is the legal doc that says What is officially supported.
    > Reference:
    > http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/XAV12X/XAV12XPF.PDF
    >
    > Regards
    >
    >
    > Kerry Main
    > Senior Consultant
    > HP Services Canada
    > Voice: 613-592-4660
    > Fax: 613-591-4477
    > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    > (remove the DOT's and AT)
    >
    > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
    >
    >




  7. RE: COBOL Transactions?

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Paul Raulerson [mailtoaul@raulersons.com]
    > Sent: August 24, 2007 9:10 PM
    > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions?
    >
    > >Here is pretty good brochure on new Integrity licenses and what is in

    > each
    > FOE, EOE, MCOE level.
    > >
    > >http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downlo...A0-2321ENW.pdf

    >
    > Aw gee Kerry- this is EXACTLY what I have been pestering people at HP
    > for.
    > All I need to add (so far), for the very small SMB customers, is RMS
    > Journaling to the base package. This little nugget of information has
    > helped
    > to turn a pretty lousy week into a nice weekend...
    >
    > Thank you.
    > -Paul
    >


    Just remember us Canucks work for beer .. and we are pretty picky.

    It has to be cold and have alcohol in it.

    :-)


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  8. New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)

    On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with
    > significant software loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of
    > my existing customers and floated the idea of moving to HP
    > hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised me to no
    > end how excited in fact!


    Despite our grumpiness at some of your statements, we really *are*
    glad that you are here, and really *do* hope that you succeed.

    Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do
    (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  9. Re: COBOL Transactions?

    On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 19:42:10 -0700, Main, Kerry wrote:

    > Just remember us Canucks work for beer .. and we are pretty picky.
    > It has to be cold and have alcohol in it.


    Cold? PICKY, PICKY


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  10. RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)
    >
    > On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > [snip]
    > >
    > > I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with
    > > significant software loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of
    > > my existing customers and floated the idea of moving to HP
    > > hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised me to no
    > > end how excited in fact!

    >
    > Despite our grumpiness at some of your statements, we really *are*
    > glad that you are here, and really *do* hope that you succeed.
    >
    > Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do
    > (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it.
    >


    Re: RPG and OpenVMS ..

    Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options here:

    Reference:
    http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html
    http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info)

    Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting experience and
    is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to OpenVMS.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  11. RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Main, Kerry [mailto:Kerry.Main@hp.com]
    > Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 10:10 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: RE: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)
    >
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > > Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM
    > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)
    > >
    > > On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > [snip]
    > > >
    > > > I intend to sell a lot of HP boxes, all nicely loaded with
    > > > significant software loads. Indeed, when I talked to a couple of
    > > > my existing customers and floated the idea of moving to HP
    > > > hardware, they were very excited about it. It surprised me to no
    > > > end how excited in fact!

    > >
    > > Despite our grumpiness at some of your statements, we really *are*
    > > glad that you are here, and really *do* hope that you succeed.
    > >
    > > Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do
    > > (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it.
    > >

    >
    > Re: RPG and OpenVMS ..
    >
    > Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options
    > here:
    >
    > Reference:
    > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html
    > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info)
    >
    > Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting
    > experience and
    > is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to
    > OpenVMS.
    >
    > Regards
    >


    Thanks Kerry - a great reference indeed. -Paul


    >
    > Kerry Main
    > Senior Consultant
    > HP Services Canada
    > Voice: 613-592-4660
    > Fax: 613-591-4477
    > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    > (remove the DOT's and AT)
    >
    > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
    >
    >




  12. Re: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)

    On 08/25/07 10:10, Main, Kerry wrote:
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    >> Sent: August 24, 2007 11:32 PM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: New blood (was Re: COBOL Transactions?)
    >>
    >> On 08/24/07 19:58, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >> [snip]

    [snip]
    >>
    >> Just remember that whatever bit of computing that you want to do
    >> (except run RPG-IV), VMS and your Alpha *can* do it.
    >>

    >
    > Re: RPG and OpenVMS ..
    >
    > Not sure if this is the same type of RPG, but there are some options here:
    >
    > Reference:
    > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/Migration-RPG.html


    That's explicitly RPG-II, which is greatly different from RPG-IV.

    > http://www.migrationspecialties.com/ContactUs.html (contact info)
    >
    > Bruce (site owner) has quite a bit of Mainframe to OpenVMS porting experience and
    > is a good resource to contact for those porting Mainframe code to OpenVMS.


    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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