Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion - VMS

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Thread: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

  1. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion


  2. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    >
    > None of them approaches the security level of say, z/OS secured with RACF.
    > That's built in security that goes down to the level of THIS user can see THIS field ONLY when logged into THIS terminal and authenticated THIS way, with full reporting and so forth. And it carries through the entire system.


    ACLs used correctly and applied in detail to RDB databases provide
    exactly that level of security. It was the first OS and relational
    database to provide such capability and it can do it across an entire
    globe spanning cluster, not a single "moat and fortress" site.


  3. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes:



    > In article <005601c7da23$bb530840$31f918c0$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > > @raulersons.com> writes:
    >>>
    >>> To answer just this little snippet, UNIX security is not bad, and is >=

    > roughly
    >>> on par with VMS.

    >>
    >>ROTFLOL.

    >
    > You think that VMS has high security? Well, it does, but in =
    > part, that is security through obscurity.


    Do you mean that since the source listings are only on CDROM these days,
    VMS security is obscured from those who have only a microfiche reader
    and no CDROM-capable computer ?

    > Does it have kernel based firewall capabilities?


    Your use of the term "kernel based" implies that you are "not from
    around here". Absolutely the VMS kernel firewalls all communication
    protocols implemented in the the VMS kernel. That would be SCS, right ?
    Can you think of any others ?

    > What about third party monitoring tools that meet SOX requirements?


    If you had been paying attention on DECUServe, you would have read the
    testimony that SOX compliance means "whatever this year's SOX auditor
    thinks it means."

    If you want to consider technical compliance with a standard more rigid
    that Jello, try NIST 800-53. My company would be happy to provide
    software ready-to-go for monitoring it.

    http://www.LJK.com/ljk/800-53.html

    If you want, you can tune that software to match the technical
    characteristics _you_ think are mandated by SOX.

    > How about little things like really erasing the data on a DASD unit?


    What constitutes _really_ erasing is up to your own DAA, which is
    why VMS lets you provide your own erase pattern. Of course that
    capability has only been around for the past 20 years or so, and
    if you are still running VMS V3.0 on your VAX 11-780, you do not
    have it.

    > Or how about published ways on VMS to handle packet spoofing,
    > tcp sequencing, etc?


    That depends on which TCP/IP stack you have installed on your machine.
    If you have complaints about the documentation of that stack, speak
    to your TCP/IP vendor.

    > None of them approaches the security level of say, z/OS secured with RACF=


    (Note to readers who do not follow IBM operating systems - RACF is an
    add-on product. The security is added on to the operating system.)

    > That's built in security that goes down to the level of THIS user can see=
    > THIS field ONLY when logged into THIS terminal and authenticated THIS wa=
    > y, with full reporting and so forth. And it carries through the entire sy=
    > stem.


    Don't those "fields" come from an add-on product as well ?

    I gather you have not looked at Rdb security on VMS.

  4. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes:
    >
    > You think that VMS has high security? Well, it does, but in =
    > part, that is security through obscurity.


    The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.

    >
    > Does it have kernel based firewall capabilities? What about third party m=
    > onitoring tools that meet SOX requirements? How about little things like =
    >
    > really erasing the data on a DASD unit? Or how about published ways on VM=
    > S
    > to handle packet spoofing, tcp sequencing, etc?


    As far as kernel IP security, that depends on what your IP vendor
    puts in the kernel. Since there is no IP in the standard VMS kernel
    yet, it's not a relavent question for VMS.

    As far as erasing all the data on a disk, VMS has had a DoD approved
    data security erase pattern for a couple decades now. Of course, DoD
    does not approve any erasure measure for some of its needs.

    >
    > The two systems are roughly equivalent; speaking of a hardended UNIX site=
    > and a hardened VMS site. Each system does some things better than the ot=
    > her.


    Each system does some things better. VMS' security implementation is
    more robuslty designed. VMS' security record is vastly superior in
    much part because the poor design of UNIX' security makes it too easy
    to get wrong.

    >
    > Now if you want to see something that is really a joke- look at "Windows =
    > Security." If nothing else, most places leave physcial access open to th=
    > e users.


    True. I was just giving a Microsoft spokesman a hard time for having
    to issue security patches to what they claimed was "the most secure
    OS" ever.


  5. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]
    > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:39 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > In article , "Paul Raulerson"
    > writes:
    > >
    > > You think that VMS has high security? Well, it does, but

    > in =
    > > part, that is security through obscurity.

    >
    > The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.


    Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS and there are
    several million installations of it...

    Okay, that's a little harsh, but the idea is still valid.

    -Paul



  6. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article <009001c7db10$23d108d0$6b731a70$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:

    >> The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.

    >
    > Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    > there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS


    I have seen very little need for additional books about VMS beyond
    what is in the documentation set. One needs the older (archived)
    documents for writing to DECwindows XUI and DECnet Phase IV, but
    those are specialized needs that would not be met by any third party
    documentation either.

  7. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article <009001c7db10$23d108d0$6b731a70$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:
    >
    > Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    > there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS and there are
    > several million installations of it...


    The observation of some obscurity does not in any way prove that
    security depends on it. Back when VMS was the thing to use it
    didn't have significant security issues.


  8. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article ,
    Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:

    > In article <009001c7db10$23d108d0$6b731a70$@com>, "Paul Raulerson"
    > writes:
    >
    > >> The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.

    > >
    > > Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    > > there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS

    >
    > I have seen very little need for additional books about VMS beyond
    > what is in the documentation set. One needs the older (archived)
    > documents for writing to DECwindows XUI and DECnet Phase IV, but
    > those are specialized needs that would not be met by any third party
    > documentation either.


    I experienced a culture shock when first trying out Linux (in 1999), in
    that I couldn't find any good books which covered much more than the
    initial installation and setup of a particular flavour (Red Hat, SuSE,
    etc). My conclusion was that without Internet access, you were pretty
    much up the creek without a paddle.

    I had got so used to having full VMS (and before that IBM) documentation
    that it hadn't occurred to me until then that for other OSes one needs
    to source extra literature.

    --
    Paul Sture

    Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
    http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~stu...bookmarks.html

  9. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/11/07 04:02, P. Sture wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote:
    >
    >> In article <009001c7db10$23d108d0$6b731a70$@com>, "Paul Raulerson"
    >> writes:
    >>
    >>>> The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.
    >>> Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    >>> there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS

    >> I have seen very little need for additional books about VMS beyond
    >> what is in the documentation set. One needs the older (archived)
    >> documents for writing to DECwindows XUI and DECnet Phase IV, but
    >> those are specialized needs that would not be met by any third party
    >> documentation either.

    >
    > I experienced a culture shock when first trying out Linux (in 1999), in
    > that I couldn't find any good books which covered much more than the
    > initial installation and setup of a particular flavour (Red Hat, SuSE,
    > etc). My conclusion was that without Internet access, you were pretty
    > much up the creek without a paddle.
    >
    > I had got so used to having full VMS (and before that IBM) documentation
    > that it hadn't occurred to me until then that for other OSes one needs
    > to source extra literature.


    That's very true.

    Making good and extensive documentation is pretty expensive, though.

    I bet Sun and Apollo didn't have adequate documentation back in the
    80s. One of the things that helped them keep their prices down.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  10. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article <009001c7db10$23d108d0$6b731a70$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:
    >
    >
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org]
    >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 3:39 PM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    >> champion
    >>
    >> In article , "Paul Raulerson"
    >> writes:
    >> >
    >> > You think that VMS has high security? Well, it does, but

    >> in =
    >> > part, that is security through obscurity.

    >>
    >> The only obscurity VMS depnds on is your password.

    >
    >Riiiight... that's why the bookstore shelves are loaded with books on VMS,
    >there are 7 or 8 magazines out there dedicated to OpenVMS and there are
    >several million installations of it...
    >

    It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been tons of
    independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed. VMS has always had
    tons of excellent documentation. If someone wanted to learn VMS then they could
    just read the VMS manuals. Hence the independent books have needed to provide
    something extra to justify someone purchasing them rather than using the
    standard documentation set.


    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University





    >Okay, that's a little harsh, but the idea is still valid.
    >
    >-Paul
    >
    >


  11. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
    > It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been tons of
    > independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed. VMS has always had
    > tons of excellent documentation.



    A friend, brought up on Windows, is switching to Linux. He told me that
    he was having a hard time. My response was that to learn a new OS, you
    need good documentation. His response "I can tell you come from a VMS
    world".

    His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that
    is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out.

  12. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/12/07 20:41, JF Mezei wrote:
    > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
    >> It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been
    >> tons of independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed.
    >> VMS has always had
    >> tons of excellent documentation.

    >
    >
    > A friend, brought up on Windows, is switching to Linux. He told me that
    > he was having a hard time. My response was that to learn a new OS, you
    > need good documentation. His response "I can tell you come from a VMS
    > world".


    What your friend needs are:

    1. Good Googling skills (most answers *really are* out there), and
    2. a spirit of exploration.

    Or... an angel to set it up for him. (That's what I did back in 2000.)

    > His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    > documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that
    > is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    > for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out.



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  13. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > My response was that to learn a new OS, you
    > need good documentation.


    As an end-user or as an admin/developer ?
    Do you need a grey wall of documentation to use a Mac ?

    > His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    > documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that
    > is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    > for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out.


    If I'd want to just try something out, I would not be inclined to wade
    through tons of documentations first.


  14. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Do you need a grey wall of documentation to use a Mac ?


    Out of the box, no. But if you want to program on a MAC, having printed
    documentation on the OS-X systems services would be great. And if you
    want to customise a mac, you need a utility which is the equivalent of
    regedit on windows, and you need to find out which file contains the
    item you need to add/change and what item to add/change. And right now,
    it appears that the community is the documentation as it learns little
    undocumented tricks on how to customize a menu for instance. Hunting for
    it takes time and you are never sure if it is possible or not.

  15. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:07:40 -0500, Ron Johnson
    wrote:


    >What your friend needs are:
    >
    >1. Good Googling skills (most answers *really are* out there), and
    >2. a spirit of exploration.
    >
    >Or... an angel to set it up for him. (That's what I did back in 2000.)
    >
    >> His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    >> documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that
    >> is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    >> for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out.



    Using Google for linux docs is all well and fine,
    but do allow for substantial time wasted by incorrect,
    and flat-out wrong documentation.

    As consequence, if you've got something tricky and/or
    critical to do on linux, you might well have to consider
    not doing it at all. ...

  16. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article ,
    Joe Bloggs wrote:

    > On Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:07:40 -0500, Ron Johnson
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    > >What your friend needs are:
    > >
    > >1. Good Googling skills (most answers *really are* out there), and
    > >2. a spirit of exploration.
    > >
    > >Or... an angel to set it up for him. (That's what I did back in 2000.)
    > >
    > >> His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    > >> documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps that
    > >> is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    > >> for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux out.

    >
    >
    > Using Google for linux docs is all well and fine,
    > but do allow for substantial time wasted by incorrect,
    > and flat-out wrong documentation.


    I had experience of that when I had no internet connection at home.
    Each cul-de-sac meant another day elapsed. Even having a couple of Unix
    folks in my team, whose experience I could tap, didn't help for things
    which Linux "does differently".

    With the benefit of hindsight, I could have easily continued without an
    internet connection at home for much longer without my foray into Linux,
    so in that sense it actually cost me quite a lot of money.

    > As consequence, if you've got something tricky and/or
    > critical to do on linux, you might well have to consider
    > not doing it at all. ...


    During the time I was trying Linux, I couldn't find any decent
    spreadsheet-cum-wordprocessing software. Even commercial packages were
    unstable.

    --
    Paul Sture

    Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
    http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~stu...bookmarks.html

  17. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:42 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
    > > It may seem a bit paradoxical but the reason why there haven't been

    > tons of
    > > independently wriiten VMS books is that they weren't needed. VMS has

    > always had
    > > tons of excellent documentation.

    >
    >
    > A friend, brought up on Windows, is switching to Linux. He told me that
    > he was having a hard time. My response was that to learn a new OS, you
    > need good documentation. His response "I can tell you come from a VMS
    > world".
    >
    > His answer means that it is fairly well known that VMS has good
    > documentation. Should new owners of VMS wish to market VMS, perhaps
    > that
    > is one key aspect they could target since it seems to be a known force
    > for VMS and would definitely strike a raw nerve to those trying Linux
    > out.


    VMS has "good documentation", meaning documentation that covers almost
    anything you can do
    with the OS, because the OS is pretty much mon-centric. The same is true of
    z/OS of course.

    With Unix - any UNIX or variant - you have not just one development source,
    but
    thousands. 10'sof thousands in the case of variants like Linux. Most things,

    certainly most things that are useful, are documented. There is a manual
    page
    for almost everything of course. That which is not well documented is either

    used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need for more
    documentation) or is just not popular or used enough to worry about.

    This is not something that can be used a relative scale to say VMS (or z/OS)
    is BETTER than Linux - it is much more a difference of kind.

    If VMS was popular enough to have as many people developing for it as say,
    Linux, then you would see the same problem.

    I would *love* to see VMS with the same problem, but it won't happen.
    Costs too much to be that popular, and yes, even with Hobbist licenses,
    there are restrictions that make free developers feel - well - restricted.


    -Paul



  18. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article <004a01c7de81$27d4bf70$777e3e50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:
    {...snip...}
    >If VMS was popular enough to have as many people developing for it as say,
    >Linux, then you would see the same problem.


    What same problem?

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  19. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On Aug 14, 10:41 am, "Paul Raulerson" wrote:
    > Costs too much to be that popular, and yes, even with Hobbist licenses,
    > there are restrictions that make free developers feel - well - restricted.


    I haven't done an apples-to-apples comparison, but curiosity made me
    check the HP
    Configurator web site the other day. A two-CPU license + media was
    only around
    $2k (IIRC) for the Itanium license. I have no clue what an Alpha
    license costs these
    days.

    Honestly, for my wallet $2k isn't all that terrible. Again, I haven't
    checked the details
    or compared the cost of, say, RedHat but it doesn't seem out of line
    for everything
    that OpenVMS brings to the table. I also didn't check the cost of
    layered product
    and compiler licenses that might be needed to put together a
    development
    platform.

    My guess is that the issue isn't cost that makes OpenVMS unpopular --
    the Itanium
    system prices are certainly reasonable at around $6k with licenses for
    an entry level
    server. The lack of popularity is IMHO based on the long-complained-
    of lack of any
    noticeable marketing effort by HP and Compaq before them.


  20. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article <004a01c7de81$27d4bf70$777e3e50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:

    > That which is not well documented is either
    >
    > used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need for more
    > documentation) or is just not popular or used enough to worry about.


    That which is not documented is not documented. It doesn't matter to
    me how few people wanted to use it, it only mattered that I needed
    information to use the product as described and it wasn't there.

    > This is not something that can be used a relative scale to say VMS (or z/OS)
    > is BETTER than Linux - it is much more a difference of kind.


    Useable is always better than not useable.

    > If VMS was popular enough to have as many people developing for it as say,
    > Linux, then you would see the same problem.


    Back when VMS was exceedingly popular it didn't have that problem.
    There's no reason why the Linux kernel, which is stable and
    controlled by Linus, the gnu utilities that run on top of it, which
    are fairly stable and well controlled by gnu, or any commercial UNIX
    can't be well documented; they just aren't.


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