Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion - VMS ; On 08/14/07 12:24, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: > >> That which is not well documented is either >> >> used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need for more ...

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Thread: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

  1. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/14/07 12:24, Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <004a01c7de81$27d4bf70$777e3e50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" writes:
    >
    >> That which is not well documented is either
    >>
    >> used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need for more
    >> documentation) or is just not popular or used enough to worry about.

    >
    > That which is not documented is not documented. It doesn't matter to
    > me how few people wanted to use it, it only mattered that I needed
    > information to use the product as described and it wasn't there.
    >
    >> This is not something that can be used a relative scale to say VMS (or z/OS)
    >> is BETTER than Linux - it is much more a difference of kind.

    >
    > Useable is always better than not useable.


    Apparently, lots of people seem to think that Linux is usable.

    >> If VMS was popular enough to have as many people developing for it as say,
    >> Linux, then you would see the same problem.

    >
    > Back when VMS was exceedingly popular it didn't have that problem.
    > There's no reason why the Linux kernel, which is stable and
    > controlled by Linus, the gnu utilities that run on top of it, which
    > are fairly stable and well controlled by gnu, or any commercial UNIX
    > can't be well documented; they just aren't.


    Because it costs *money* to create (and keep current) extensive
    *good* documentation with lots of examples.

    While I remember DOS/VSE having lots of documentation, I remember it
    being relatively poor quality.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  2. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 14, 2007 5:40 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > On 08/14/07 12:24, Bob Koehler wrote:
    > > In article <004a01c7de81$27d4bf70$777e3e50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson"

    > writes:
    > >
    > >> That which is not well documented is either
    > >>
    > >> used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need

    > for more
    > >> documentation) or is just not popular or used enough to worry about.

    > >
    > > That which is not documented is not documented. It doesn't matter

    > to
    > > me how few people wanted to use it, it only mattered that I needed
    > > information to use the product as described and it wasn't there.
    > >
    > >> This is not something that can be used a relative scale to say VMS

    > (or z/OS)
    > >> is BETTER than Linux - it is much more a difference of kind.

    > >
    > > Useable is always better than not useable.

    >
    > Apparently, lots of people seem to think that Linux is usable.
    >


    And there is an old saying from somewhere that states something like -

    "If the whole world thinks something is true, then it likely is not."

    History is full of examples where technologies become white hot for short
    periods Of time, but then for numerous reasons, fall by the wayside.

    DCE, NAS (early versions of SOA), AI (artificial Intelligence) etc are
    All examples of technologies that were seen to be "the next big thing",
    but then fell by the wayside.

    Fwiw, Gartner likes to call it the hype curve. A technology becomes white
    hot, then crashes as people find out it does not do everything it was
    expected to, then arises again at a much lower level more in line with
    reasonable expectations of what that technology is best suited for.

    [snip]

    Pure personal opinion, but based on various discussions with senior IT
    managers, there appears to be another emerging trend that may run counter
    to the Linux type movement.

    Senior IT managers want their senior IT folks interacting more with the
    lines of business to better educate the business types on how IT can help
    solve their business problems. They do not want their senior IT folks playing
    in the OS weeds dealing with the patch of the day support, compatibility and
    other low level OS issues.

    For this low level OS support stuff, they would rather pay some other vendor
    To provide Support - especially since this is only a small part of the overall
    IT budget (IT staffing is 60-70% of IT budget).

    Interesting times ahead.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  3. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/14/07 19:11, Main, Kerry wrote:
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    >> Sent: August 14, 2007 5:40 PM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    >> champion
    >>
    >> On 08/14/07 12:24, Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article <004a01c7de81$27d4bf70$777e3e50$@com>, "Paul Raulerson"

    >> writes:
    >>>> That which is not well documented is either
    >>>>
    >>>> used by a small portion of the community (who don't feel the need

    >> for more
    >>>> documentation) or is just not popular or used enough to worry about.
    >>> That which is not documented is not documented. It doesn't matter

    >> to
    >>> me how few people wanted to use it, it only mattered that I needed
    >>> information to use the product as described and it wasn't there.
    >>>
    >>>> This is not something that can be used a relative scale to say VMS

    >> (or z/OS)
    >>>> is BETTER than Linux - it is much more a difference of kind.
    >>> Useable is always better than not useable.

    >> Apparently, lots of people seem to think that Linux is usable.
    >>

    >
    > And there is an old saying from somewhere that states something like -
    >
    > "If the whole world thinks something is true, then it likely is not."
    >
    > History is full of examples where technologies become white hot for short
    > periods Of time, but then for numerous reasons, fall by the wayside.
    >
    > DCE, NAS (early versions of SOA), AI (artificial Intelligence) etc are
    > All examples of technologies that were seen to be "the next big thing",
    > but then fell by the wayside.
    >
    > Fwiw, Gartner likes to call it the hype curve. A technology becomes white
    > hot, then crashes as people find out it does not do everything it was
    > expected to, then arises again at a much lower level more in line with
    > reasonable expectations of what that technology is best suited for.


    Like Windows isn't as stable and secure as my grandmother's broken
    hip, so people are flocking away from it back on to OpenVMS?

    Puh-leeze.

    > [snip]
    >
    > Pure personal opinion, but based on various discussions with senior IT
    > managers, there appears to be another emerging trend that may run counter
    > to the Linux type movement.
    >
    > Senior IT managers want their senior IT folks interacting more with the
    > lines of business to better educate the business types on how IT can help
    > solve their business problems. They do not want their senior IT folks playing
    > in the OS weeds dealing with the patch of the day support, compatibility and
    > other low level OS issues.


    Puh-leeze again.

    When was the last time that a senior IT person played in the OS weeds?

    That's correct: back when he was a mid-layer IT person.

    > For this low level OS support stuff, they would rather pay some other vendor
    > To provide Support - especially since this is only a small part of the overall
    > IT budget (IT staffing is 60-70% of IT budget).
    >
    > Interesting times ahead.


    Outsource OS support like they outsource programming and the hell desk?

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  4. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article , Ron Johnson writes:
    >
    > Apparently, lots of people seem to think that Linux is usable.


    I use it a lot, too. But all those experiences don't negate the
    reality of my needs.

    >
    > Because it costs *money* to create (and keep current) extensive
    > *good* documentation with lots of examples.


    Duh.


  5. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 14, 2007 10:58 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >


    [snip]

    > >
    > > Fwiw, Gartner likes to call it the hype curve. A technology becomes

    > white
    > > hot, then crashes as people find out it does not do everything it was
    > > expected to, then arises again at a much lower level more in line

    > with
    > > reasonable expectations of what that technology is best suited for.

    >
    > Like Windows isn't as stable and secure as my grandmother's broken
    > hip, so people are flocking away from it back on to OpenVMS?
    >
    > Puh-leeze.


    Huh? Who said anything about "flocking to OpenVMS?"

    However, since you brought it up, the number one server consolidation target by
    far in almost every med to large company to today is Windows. Unfortunately,
    because of the one app, one server culture and platform technology challenges,
    it is not considered viable to consolidate with App stacking on Windows, soprod's
    like VMware are going through the roof.

    Ever wonder why VMware stock is so hot right now? Now you know why.

    Unfortunately, while VMware saves some $'s on DC power, space etc, it does not
    Reduce OS licensing (actually increases it) or FTE counts. And remember that
    FTE counts are directly related to the number of OS's required to be managed.

    So, VMware is a short term solution that buys some breathing room, but the next
    Big cost reduction push is going to be reducing OS instances and App stacking
    And this is an area where Windows and Linux environments will have both cultural
    and technology challenges.

    >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > > Pure personal opinion, but based on various discussions with senior

    > IT
    > > managers, there appears to be another emerging trend that may run

    > counter
    > > to the Linux type movement.
    > >
    > > Senior IT managers want their senior IT folks interacting more with

    > the
    > > lines of business to better educate the business types on how IT can

    > help
    > > solve their business problems. They do not want their senior IT folks

    > playing
    > > in the OS weeds dealing with the patch of the day support,

    > compatibility and
    > > other low level OS issues.

    >
    > Puh-leeze again.
    >
    > When was the last time that a senior IT person played in the OS weeds?
    >
    > That's correct: back when he was a mid-layer IT person.
    >


    Huh? Surely you jest? There is a huge number of Senior SysAdmins testing,
    learning, developing scripts, etc on Linux today.

    These are the same IT staff that have been around for a long time and understand
    the business and how IT works in the company. Rather than have them playingin
    the OS weeds, senior IT Managers would rather have them learning and interfacing
    more with the BU's and let other vendors provide the low level Windows/Linux
    support stuff.

    Of course, your mileage ay differ, but I certainly see this in a number of
    large companies I have been involved with.

    > > For this low level OS support stuff, they would rather pay some other

    > vendor
    > > To provide Support - especially since this is only a small part of

    > the overall
    > > IT budget (IT staffing is 60-70% of IT budget).
    > >
    > > Interesting times ahead.

    >
    > Outsource OS support like they outsource programming and the hell desk?
    >
    > --


    Its more a case of elevating and/or promoting those who understand how technology
    can assist the business to become more competitive.

    And lets face it, maintaining Windows and Linux with 5-20 security patches per
    month across hundreds of Prod/Dev/Test "one app-one server" servers and that are
    owned by many different groups is no small amount of effort.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






  6. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    If you get the chance, check out PSI running Windows 2008 on Itanium.
    The beginning of AppStacking under Windows for sure.

    Sweet - add and take away processes dynamically. And Windows understands
    it happening.

    -Paul


    > Huh? Who said anything about "flocking to OpenVMS?"
    >
    > However, since you brought it up, the number one server consolidation
    > target by
    > far in almost every med to large company to today is Windows.
    > Unfortunately,
    > because of the one app, one server culture and platform technology
    > challenges,
    > it is not considered viable to consolidate with App stacking on
    > Windows, so prod's
    > like VMware are going through the roof.
    >



  7. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Paul Raulerson [mailtoaul@raulersons.com]
    > Sent: August 16, 2007 12:54 AM
    > To: Main, Kerry; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > If you get the chance, check out PSI running Windows 2008 on Itanium.
    > The beginning of AppStacking under Windows for sure.
    >
    > Sweet - add and take away processes dynamically. And Windows
    > understands
    > it happening.
    >
    > -Paul
    >
    >
    > > Huh? Who said anything about "flocking to OpenVMS?"
    > >
    > > However, since you brought it up, the number one server consolidation
    > > target by
    > > far in almost every med to large company to today is Windows.
    > > Unfortunately,
    > > because of the one app, one server culture and platform technology
    > > challenges,
    > > it is not considered viable to consolidate with App stacking on
    > > Windows, so prod's
    > > like VMware are going through the roof.
    > >


    I am sure there will be technical enhancements in the future which will make App
    stacking on Windows (and Linux) more feasible, but the biggest challenge they face
    is the Windows culture and ISV's, end users, support types not wanting to share
    apps on the same system.

    And of course, one of the critical technologies associated with App stacking is
    a good and reliable workload management sub-system - either in the kernel or via
    some add-on product. This might also be called a class scheduler which I suspect
    you likely know a thing or two about with experience from the mainframe world ..

    :-)

    For the benefit of others, workload balancing via class schedulers are designed
    to ensure that one process does not do something dumb and take over the system
    thus impacting other applications.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  8. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    In article , "Main, Kerry" writes:

    > For the benefit of others, workload balancing via class schedulers are desi=
    > gned
    > to ensure that one process does not do something dumb and take over the sys=
    > tem
    > thus impacting other applications.


    Or do something contrary to the fiscal arrangements that enabled the
    organization to buy the machine (Chemistry Department always deserves
    at least 43 percent).

  9. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On Aug 16, 8:38 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto...@raulersons.com]
    > > Sent: August 16, 2007 12:54 AM
    > > To: Main, Kerry; Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > > champion

    >
    > > If you get the chance, check out PSI running Windows 2008 on Itanium.
    > > The beginning of AppStacking under Windows for sure.

    >
    > > Sweet - add and take away processes dynamically. And Windows
    > > understands
    > > it happening.

    >
    > > -Paul

    >
    > > > Huh? Who said anything about "flocking to OpenVMS?"

    >
    > > > However, since you brought it up, the number one server consolidation
    > > > target by
    > > > far in almost every med to large company to today is Windows.
    > > > Unfortunately,
    > > > because of the one app, one server culture and platform technology
    > > > challenges,
    > > > it is not considered viable to consolidate with App stacking on
    > > > Windows, so prod's
    > > > like VMware are going through the roof.

    >
    > I am sure there will be technical enhancements in the future which will make App
    > stacking on Windows (and Linux) more feasible, but the biggest challenge they face
    > is the Windows culture and ISV's, end users, support types not wanting to share
    > apps on the same system.
    >


    If there's one thing MS does well, it's marketing. When they start
    spouting the *new* App-Stacking buzz-words in public, the Windows
    culture will buy into it.

    If VMS wants to be in the game as more than niche-player, it needs to
    be able to run the applications that the crowd wants to stack and be
    visible and vocal in the marketplace when the buzz-words become "fad."
    Of course, that's just my virtualization of the socio-techno interface
    paradigm.


    > And of course, one of the critical technologies associated with App stacking is
    > a good and reliable workload management sub-system - either in the kernel or via
    > some add-on product. This might also be called a class scheduler which I suspect
    > you likely know a thing or two about with experience from the mainframe world ..
    >
    > :-)
    >
    > For the benefit of others, workload balancing via class schedulers are designed
    > to ensure that one process does not do something dumb and take over the system
    > thus impacting other applications.
    >


    What a revolutionary new concept!;-)


  10. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphill46@netscape.net]
    > Sent: August 16, 2007 3:12 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >


    [snip]

    > >
    > > I am sure there will be technical enhancements in the future which

    > will make App
    > > stacking on Windows (and Linux) more feasible, but the biggest

    > challenge they face
    > > is the Windows culture and ISV's, end users, support types not

    > wanting to share
    > > apps on the same system.
    > >

    >


    Well, its interesting, but it appears MS is losing some of its grip on the
    business world as companies are no longer jumping on their latest and
    greatest the way it used to be.

    Just look at VISTA - radically fewer companies adopting right now than was
    expected. Desktop PC vendors (IBM, HP, Dell etc) are now offering models
    with XP loaded - even after MS said VISTA was the only thing they could
    ship on new desktops.

    > If there's one thing MS does well, it's marketing. When they start
    > spouting the *new* App-Stacking buzz-words in public, the Windows
    > culture will buy into it.
    >
    > If VMS wants to be in the game as more than niche-player, it needs to
    > be able to run the applications that the crowd wants to stack and be
    > visible and vocal in the marketplace when the buzz-words become "fad."
    > Of course, that's just my virtualization of the socio-techno interface
    > paradigm.
    >
    >
    > > And of course, one of the critical technologies associated with App

    > stacking is
    > > a good and reliable workload management sub-system - either in the

    > kernel or via
    > > some add-on product. This might also be called a class scheduler

    > which I suspect
    > > you likely know a thing or two about with experience from the

    > mainframe world ..
    > >
    > > :-)
    > >
    > > For the benefit of others, workload balancing via class schedulers

    > are designed
    > > to ensure that one process does not do something dumb and take over

    > the system
    > > thus impacting other applications.
    > >

    >
    > What a revolutionary new concept!;-)


    What's old is new and what's new is old -

    DCE/NAS ==> SOA
    Common Data Dictionary ==> UDDI
    Timesharing ==> Shared Services
    Utility ==> Utility (still chasing same old utility concepts - even after
    20 years.)


    Any others ?

    Btw, Microsoft just announced it is now adopting a new architecture as well..

    Reference:
    http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell...ine/1981-4.htm

    :-)

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






  11. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On Aug 16, 4:03 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    >
    > Btw, Microsoft just announced it is now adopting a new architecture as well.
    >
    > Reference:http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell...ine/1981-4.htm
    >
    > :-)


    :-))

    Didn't Microsoft use VMS in-house for quite a few years or is my bad
    memory just giving search engines a new mis-information link?


  12. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    Doug Phillips writes:

    > On Aug 16, 4:03 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote:


    >> Btw, Microsoft just announced it is now adopting a new architecture as well.


    >> Reference:http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell...ine/1981-4.htm


    >> :-)


    > :-))


    > Didn't Microsoft use VMS in-house for quite a few years or is my bad
    > memory just giving search engines a new mis-information link?


    Microsoft exclusively used Dec-10 and DEC-20 systems for cross-compilation of
    their language products until the late 80s or early 90s. They apparently had
    one or two 11/780 systems on the financial side of the house.

    --
    Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon |
    news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against |
    "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and |
    --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings |

  13. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 16 Aug, 14:38, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: Paul Raulerson [mailto...@raulersons.com]
    > > Sent: August 16, 2007 12:54 AM
    > > To: Main, Kerry; Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > > champion

    >
    > > If you get the chance, check out PSI running Windows 2008 on Itanium.
    > > The beginning of AppStacking under Windows for sure.

    >
    > > Sweet - add and take away processes dynamically. And Windows
    > > understands
    > > it happening.

    >
    > > -Paul

    >
    > > > Huh? Who said anything about "flocking to OpenVMS?"

    >
    > > > However, since you brought it up, the number one server consolidation
    > > > target by
    > > > far in almost every med to large company to today is Windows.
    > > > Unfortunately,
    > > > because of the one app, one server culture and platform technology
    > > > challenges,
    > > > it is not considered viable to consolidate with App stacking on
    > > > Windows, so prod's
    > > > like VMware are going through the roof.

    >
    > I am sure there will be technical enhancements in the future which will make App
    > stacking on Windows (and Linux) more feasible, but the biggest challenge they face
    > is the Windows culture and ISV's, end users, support types not wanting to share
    > apps on the same system.
    >
    > And of course, one of the critical technologies associated with App stacking is
    > a good and reliable workload management sub-system - either in the kernel or via
    > some add-on product. This might also be called a class scheduler which I suspect
    > you likely know a thing or two about with experience from the mainframe world ..
    >


    While it may well be true that Linux and Windows lack reliable
    workload management the same cannot be said for UNIX which has
    supported this for some time. Solaris has Zones/Containers hooked into
    workload management, while both HP-UX and AIX also have support for
    workload managers although without the container type features of
    Solaris.

    All the major commercial UNIX platforms allow administrators to
    restrict the amount of resource used by an application to a share of
    the system ensuring that all apps get the service they need. In the
    case of Solaris the apps can be running in a container which looks
    like another instance of the OS but in fact isn't.

    BSD Jails are very similar to Solaris Zones/Containers.
    > :-)
    >
    > For the benefit of others, workload balancing via class schedulers are designed
    > to ensure that one process does not do something dumb and take over the system
    > thus impacting other applications.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Kerry Main
    > Senior Consultant
    > HP Services Canada
    > Voice: 613-592-4660
    > Fax: 613-591-4477
    > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    > (remove the DOT's and AT)
    >
    > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  14. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/17/07 08:03, Andrew wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > While it may well be true that Linux and Windows lack reliable
    > workload management the same cannot be said for UNIX which has
    > supported this for some time. Solaris has Zones/Containers hooked into
    > workload management, while both HP-UX and AIX also have support for
    > workload managers although without the container type features of
    > Solaris.
    >
    > All the major commercial UNIX platforms allow administrators to
    > restrict the amount of resource used by an application to a share of
    > the system ensuring that all apps get the service they need. In the
    > case of Solaris the apps can be running in a container which looks
    > like another instance of the OS but in fact isn't.
    >
    > BSD Jails are very similar to Solaris Zones/Containers.


    Linux *does*, though, have CPU percentage limiting software.
    http://cpulimit.sourceforge.net/

    BTW, how does one limit CPU percentage in VMS?

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  15. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 17, 2007 5:40 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > On 08/17/07 08:03, Andrew wrote:
    > [snip]
    > >
    > > While it may well be true that Linux and Windows lack reliable
    > > workload management the same cannot be said for UNIX which has
    > > supported this for some time. Solaris has Zones/Containers hooked

    > into
    > > workload management, while both HP-UX and AIX also have support for
    > > workload managers although without the container type features of
    > > Solaris.
    > >
    > > All the major commercial UNIX platforms allow administrators to
    > > restrict the amount of resource used by an application to a share of
    > > the system ensuring that all apps get the service they need. In the
    > > case of Solaris the apps can be running in a container which looks
    > > like another instance of the OS but in fact isn't.
    > >
    > > BSD Jails are very similar to Solaris Zones/Containers.

    >
    > Linux *does*, though, have CPU percentage limiting software.
    > http://cpulimit.sourceforge.net/
    >
    > BTW, how does one limit CPU percentage in VMS?
    >
    > --


    Class scheduler:
    $ mcr sysman
    Sysman> help class (see ADD, DELETE, MODIFY, SHOW, SUSPEND)

    ...

    ADD

    The ADD command creates a new scheduling class.

    The class scheduler provides the ability to limit the amount
    of CPU time that a system's users receive by placing users in
    scheduling classes. Each class is assigned a percentage of the
    overall system CPU time. As the system runs, the combined set of
    users in a class is limited to the percentage of CPU execution
    time allocated to their class.

    Users might get some additional CPU time if the qualifier
    /WINDFALL is enabled for their scheduling class. Enabling the
    qualifier /WINDFALL allows the system to give a small amount
    of CPU time to a scheduling class when the scheduling class's
    allotted time has been depleted, but a free CPU is available.

    Other ways of managing workloads include:
    - setting process priorities
    - restricting processes to specific cpu's (can also be performance enhancement
    as caching has better chance of not being flushed)

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  16. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    On 08/17/07 17:08, Main, Kerry wrote:
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    >> Sent: August 17, 2007 5:40 PM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    >> champion

    [snip]
    >>>
    >>> BSD Jails are very similar to Solaris Zones/Containers.

    >> Linux *does*, though, have CPU percentage limiting software.
    >> http://cpulimit.sourceforge.net/
    >>
    >> BTW, how does one limit CPU percentage in VMS?
    >>
    >> --

    >
    > Class scheduler:
    > $ mcr sysman
    > Sysman> help class (see ADD, DELETE, MODIFY, SHOW, SUSPEND)
    >
    > ..
    >
    > ADD
    >
    > The ADD command creates a new scheduling class.
    >
    > The class scheduler provides the ability to limit the amount
    > of CPU time that a system's users receive by placing users in
    > scheduling classes. Each class is assigned a percentage of the
    > overall system CPU time. As the system runs, the combined set of
    > users in a class is limited to the percentage of CPU execution
    > time allocated to their class.
    >
    > Users might get some additional CPU time if the qualifier
    > /WINDFALL is enabled for their scheduling class. Enabling the
    > qualifier /WINDFALL allows the system to give a small amount
    > of CPU time to a scheduling class when the scheduling class's
    > allotted time has been depleted, but a free CPU is available.
    >
    > Other ways of managing workloads include:
    > - setting process priorities
    > - restricting processes to specific cpu's (can also be performance enhancement
    > as caching has better chance of not being flushed)


    Very interesting. Thanks.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  17. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 18, 2007 10:44 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > On 08/17/07 17:08, Main, Kerry wrote:
    > >> -----Original Message-----
    > >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > >> Sent: August 17, 2007 5:40 PM
    > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > >> Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an

    > internal
    > >> champion

    > [snip]
    > >>>
    > >>> BSD Jails are very similar to Solaris Zones/Containers.
    > >> Linux *does*, though, have CPU percentage limiting software.
    > >> http://cpulimit.sourceforge.net/
    > >>
    > >> BTW, how does one limit CPU percentage in VMS?
    > >>
    > >> --

    > >
    > > Class scheduler:
    > > $ mcr sysman
    > > Sysman> help class (see ADD, DELETE, MODIFY, SHOW, SUSPEND)
    > >
    > > ..
    > >
    > > ADD
    > >
    > > The ADD command creates a new scheduling class.
    > >
    > > The class scheduler provides the ability to limit the amount
    > > of CPU time that a system's users receive by placing users in
    > > scheduling classes. Each class is assigned a percentage of the
    > > overall system CPU time. As the system runs, the combined set

    > of
    > > users in a class is limited to the percentage of CPU execution
    > > time allocated to their class.
    > >
    > > Users might get some additional CPU time if the qualifier
    > > /WINDFALL is enabled for their scheduling class. Enabling the
    > > qualifier /WINDFALL allows the system to give a small amount
    > > of CPU time to a scheduling class when the scheduling class's
    > > allotted time has been depleted, but a free CPU is available.
    > >
    > > Other ways of managing workloads include:
    > > - setting process priorities
    > > - restricting processes to specific cpu's (can also be performance

    > enhancement
    > > as caching has better chance of not being flushed)

    >
    > Very interesting. Thanks.
    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA
    >
    > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!



    For the benefit of al who would like some additional info on other Workload
    Management and virtualization features for OpenVMS, check out:

    http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downlo...A0-5801ENW.pdf

    Pretty good brochure if the terms iCAP, TiCAP, GiCAP gWLM and PPU are
    new to you. Note that this was dated May 2006. Also has some info on Web
    Services.

    Exec Summary extract:
    "This white paper outlines how HP OpenVMS is embracing virtualization
    technologies contributing to the HP Adaptive Enterprise initiative, so
    that customers can begin to plan integration of their current and future
    OpenVMSenvironments into the Adaptive Enterprise and Virtual Server
    Environment (VSE)."

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  18. Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > Exec Summary extract:
    > "This white paper outlines how HP OpenVMS is embracing virtualization
    > technologies contributing to the HP Adaptive Enterprise initiative,



    There is nothing impressive or desirable about VMS running as an
    application on HP-UX. This is going backwards compared to galaxies. Like
    IBM dropping its mainframe equivalent to Galaxies and going back to the
    1980s VM to host multiple instances of an OS.

    But then again, the way HP sees it, VMS customers are expected to
    migrate to HP-UX so it is natural to have HP-UX system hosting an
    instance of VMS that will run your apps that haven't yet been converted
    to HP-UX.

  19. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 11:06 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > > Exec Summary extract:
    > > "This white paper outlines how HP OpenVMS is embracing virtualization
    > > technologies contributing to the HP Adaptive Enterprise initiative,

    >
    >
    > There is nothing impressive or desirable about VMS running as an
    > application on HP-UX. This is going backwards compared to galaxies.
    > Like
    > IBM dropping its mainframe equivalent to Galaxies and going back to the
    > 1980s VM to host multiple instances of an OS.
    >


    Galaxies and SYSPLEXs are not quite as equivalent as you might
    think. For
    example, you can run a SYSPLEX under z/VM quite happily, and then host tens
    to hundreds
    to *thousands* of z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE, MVS, OS/390, Linux, 31bit/64bit
    instances.

    Every single one of which thinks it has the entire machine, including
    multiple CPUs,
    and any hardware device you want to give it access to.

    z/VM also provides a facility known as a Virtual Switch - which is very much
    like a
    Cisco switch, allowing you to trunk VLANS around, connect virtual machines
    (instances)
    together, either with hardware or with HyperSockets (LAN connections that
    move at
    memory bus speeds) and so forth and so on and so on.

    I truly believe that VMS would be a great platform to virtualize, and
    indeed, should be
    virtualized to run HP-UX, Linux, Windows, VMS, and all the other OS's that
    can run on the
    underlying hardware. No emulation though!!

    If it could do that, similar to VM, it would make the Itanium platform
    *very* desirable
    indeed. Probably would not wind up looking a lot like the same VM you know
    today though.

    -Paul



    > But then again, the way HP sees it, VMS customers are expected to
    > migrate to HP-UX so it is natural to have HP-UX system hosting an
    > instance of VMS that will run your apps that haven't yet been converted
    > to HP-UX.



  20. RE: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal champion

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: August 18, 2007 12:06 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Wonderful things happen to an OS when it has an internal
    > champion
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > > Exec Summary extract:
    > > "This white paper outlines how HP OpenVMS is embracing virtualization
    > > technologies contributing to the HP Adaptive Enterprise initiative,

    >
    >
    > There is nothing impressive or desirable about VMS running as an
    > application on HP-UX. This is going backwards compared to galaxies.
    > Like
    > IBM dropping its mainframe equivalent to Galaxies and going back to the
    > 1980s VM to host multiple instances of an OS.
    >
    > But then again, the way HP sees it, VMS customers are expected to
    > migrate to HP-UX so it is natural to have HP-UX system hosting an
    > instance of VMS that will run your apps that haven't yet been converted
    > to HP-UX.


    Did you actually read the brochure?

    There are a number of options available - each with pro's and con's.

    Btw - do you really understand the issues with OS virtualization on any
    platform?

    Imho, OS virtualization solutions on *any* platform are a short term solution
    that address some savings in HW and DC space/cooling but they do not reduce
    the numbers of OS's which are tied to FTE counts - the largest slice of most IT
    budgets.

    After you do OS virtualization using solutions like VMware, Zen or any other
    solution, the next question out of the CIO's mouth will be "Great. Now how
    are you going to reduce the number of OS's, so I can cut my FTE numbers?"

    And that is where App stacking, Workload Mgmt comes in.

    Anyway, I suggest you read and digest the brochure contents before typing
    out your fud and hype ..

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






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