How much will Integrity cost? - VMS

This is a discussion on How much will Integrity cost? - VMS ; On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:33:18 -0700, David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > If you go with an enterprise variant 2660 Dual1.6Ghz with 4GB and a small > disk you are looking at over $50K per system > Same old ...

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Thread: How much will Integrity cost?

  1. Re: How much will Integrity cost?

    On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:33:18 -0700, David Turner, Island Computers
    wrote:

    > If you go with an enterprise variant 2660 Dual1.6Ghz with 4GB and a small
    > disk you are looking at over $50K per system
    > Same old same old.
    > Should be about $20K with licenses methinks!


    Don't you suppose that this is a consequence of twice having reduced the
    customer base, and therefore needing higher prices because of the lower
    volume?

    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  2. Re: How much will Integrity cost?

    In article ,
    "Tom Linden" writes:
    > On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:33:18 -0700, David Turner, Island Computers
    > wrote:
    >
    >> If you go with an enterprise variant 2660 Dual1.6Ghz with 4GB and a small
    >> disk you are looking at over $50K per system
    >> Same old same old.
    >> Should be about $20K with licenses methinks!

    >
    > Don't you suppose that this is a consequence of twice having reduced the
    > customer base, and therefore needing higher prices because of the lower
    > volume?


    Don't you suppose that is somewhat self-fulfilling?
    Price increases -> customers leave because of price increase -> Price
    increases because of loss of customer revenue -> more customers leave
    because of price increase -> etc. -> etc. -> etc.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  3. Re: How much will Integrity cost?

    On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 08:24:58 -0700, Bill Gunshannon
    wrote:

    > In article ,
    > "Tom Linden" writes:
    >> On Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:33:18 -0700, David Turner, Island Computers
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> If you go with an enterprise variant 2660 Dual1.6Ghz with 4GB and a
    >>> small
    >>> disk you are looking at over $50K per system
    >>> Same old same old.
    >>> Should be about $20K with licenses methinks!

    >>
    >> Don't you suppose that this is a consequence of twice having reduced the
    >> customer base, and therefore needing higher prices because of the lower
    >> volume?

    >
    > Don't you suppose that is somewhat self-fulfilling?
    > Price increases -> customers leave because of price increase -> Price
    > increases because of loss of customer revenue -> more customers leave
    > because of price increase -> etc. -> etc. -> etc.

    What I was alluding to was the VAX/Alpha transition resulting in first
    generation lower volume and then the Alpha/IA64 following that.
    >
    > bill
    >




    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  4. Re: How much will Integrity cost?

    Note to tadamsmar:

    If yo are doing due diligence with regards to the future of your
    systems, you should also consider examining how much it would cost to
    move to Solaris, Linux, or AIX.

    If the current systems are stable, and are already using software from
    3rd parties that have abandonned VMS, it will only get worse with time.
    And HP is now working to move VMS ISVs to HP-UX (Cerner being a prime
    example) so availability of software on VMS is more likely to get worse
    than to improve. There is only so much Sue can do to thwart Stallard and
    Livermore's efforts to kill off VMS.

    Downgrading to IA64s might be a nice exercise, but is it worth the
    trouble when you consider that eventually you'll have to migrate to
    another OS anyways ?


    And strategically, if everyone who leaves VMS now were to make it
    extremely clear to Hurd that they are not staying with HP, it would help
    discredit Stallard/Livermore's claims that they will be able to retain
    VMS customers and help them migrate to that HP-UX contraption on that
    IA64 thing and perhaps help save VMS.

  5. Re: How much will Integrity cost?


    We need help and suggestions like yours like we need additional holes in our
    heads.


    "JF Mezei" wrote in message
    news:a6dc$46b8a030$cef8887a$18086@TEKSAVVY.COM...
    > Note to tadamsmar:
    >
    > If yo are doing due diligence with regards to the future of your systems,
    > you should also consider examining how much it would cost to move to
    > Solaris, Linux, or AIX.
    >
    > If the current systems are stable, and are already using software from 3rd
    > parties that have abandonned VMS, it will only get worse with time. And HP
    > is now working to move VMS ISVs to HP-UX (Cerner being a prime example) so
    > availability of software on VMS is more likely to get worse than to
    > improve. There is only so much Sue can do to thwart Stallard and
    > Livermore's efforts to kill off VMS.
    >
    > Downgrading to IA64s might be a nice exercise, but is it worth the trouble
    > when you consider that eventually you'll have to migrate to another OS
    > anyways ?
    >
    >
    > And strategically, if everyone who leaves VMS now were to make it
    > extremely clear to Hurd that they are not staying with HP, it would help
    > discredit Stallard/Livermore's claims that they will be able to retain VMS
    > customers and help them migrate to that HP-UX contraption on that IA64
    > thing and perhaps help save VMS.




  6. Re: How much will Integrity cost?


    "tadamsmar" wrote in message
    news:1186489031.851468.214280@w3g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
    > On Aug 6, 10:40 pm, Robert Deininger
    > wrote:
    > > In article <1186424294.110608.68...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.c om>,
    > >
    > > tadamsmar wrote:
    > > > I meant big monitors not big X-terminals. I guess we could use X-
    > > > terminals. But I would like to use my existing monitors if we did not
    > > > wait to upgrade for many years. I have a couple of new monitors.

    > >
    > > The rx2600 has 1 built-in graphics port. I don't know the maximum
    > > graphics resolution, but it is somewhere in the documentation for the
    > > server.
    > >
    > > You also mentioned process automation. Do you have any oddball adapters
    > > in your Alphas? None of the Integrity servers support 5 volt PCI cards;
    > > you can only use 3.3V or universal cards.

    >
    > No oddball addapters, it's all via ethernet to PLCs . We do have to
    > get a substitute for Allen Bradley Interchange because it will not be
    > upgraded to Integrity. That will be HP Basestar or binary translation
    >


    Apologies in advance if any of what follows is already covered in other
    related threads which I may have missed.

    "No oddball adapters". That's handy then. Oddball adapters aren't going to
    be a strong point on VMS, likely even less so on IA64 (as you have already
    found with Interchange, not everything previously available on VMS will be
    available on VMS on IA64). There used to be a close relationship between
    Allen Bradley and DEC, as exemplified by AB's "Pyramid Integrator" (a
    MicroVAX 2000 heart in AB's PLC-style packaging) but that was back in 1988,
    and the world is different now.


    "We do have to get a substitute for Allen Bradley Interchange because it
    will not be upgraded to Integrity. That will be HP Basestar or binary
    translation"

    OK. Do you have experience of either of the two BASEstars ("Classic" and
    "Open", which have little in common except the name) at the moment? I do
    hope you don't mean you are contemplating binary translation of them. In the
    case of BASEstar "Open", the product appears to have been available on IA64,
    presumably compatible with versions on other platforms, so translation would
    likely be an unnecessary risk. In the case of BASEstar "Classic", HP say it
    will not be ported to IA64, but the software is sufficiently complex that
    binary translation would (imo) be a last resort. That doesn't necessarily
    mean it won't work; many customers have relied on binary translation with
    other applications, sometimes complex ones, but it is not *guaranteed* to
    work and your application seems likely to need reasonable guarantees for
    24x7 operation in routine (largely testable in advance) and non-routine (not
    so predictable) conditions.

    BASEstar Classic does what it does, and does it well, but only on VMS, and
    not on IA64. BASEstar Open was designed to address the same market but
    that's where the similarity ends; it was intended from day 1 to be
    multi-platform, Unix as well as VMS, which leads to a very different product
    architecture, and (arguably) a much steeper learning curve before you can do
    anything useful with it. But once you are used to its ways it is potentially
    more powerful than BASEstar Classic.

    Be aware also that if you go down this road you will need also the relevant
    Device Access Software for your chosen BASEstar; I haven't checked lately
    but this used to be sold and supported separately from the core package, so
    if you are interested in IA64 you will need to check IA64 availability of
    this too.

    If there are still BASEstar or related factory automation experts around
    within HP or elsewhere, you might want to be talking to them. Actually, for
    BASEstar Open in particular, you *will* want to be talking to them.

    Once again, apologies if this is all known to you already, but some of these
    minor details can be showstoppers and I don't recall seeing them mentioned
    so far.

    Wrt due diligence: with all due respect to FredK, and bearing in mind that
    readers here know little in detail about what's important to your
    application: I agree with JF, it's probably in your own and your client's
    interests to do at least some basic level of investigation of other
    platforms for your application (both other OSes and other
    automation/integration packages), bearing in mind your knowledge of what is
    important to your client's business, and also bearing in mind the possible
    complexity of migration from Interchange to BASEstar (or anything similar,
    regardless of platform). You know what's involved here, other readers don't.
    Maybe you trust HP's promises and predictions, maybe you don't. Either way,
    you and your client may not want to be thinking about migration again in
    another (say) five years. This and other reasons logically rule out Windows
    as a platform to migrate to, but that still leaves a few options open, and
    for the many whose thinking isn't constrained by logic, there are plenty of
    Windows-based SCADA-type packages which offer Allen Bradley connectivity but
    may or may not satisfy the rest of your customers needs.

    Hth,
    JW




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