terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity - VMS

This is a discussion on terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity - VMS ; We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by MRV. And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer supported by Tektronics. These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS. I wonder if these will ...

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Thread: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

  1. terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    MRV.

    And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    supported by Tektronics.

    These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.

    I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?

    I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    status report:

    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html

    which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    protocols, I think.

    But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.

    Right, wrong, or depends?


  2. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    tadamsmar wrote:
    > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > protocols, I think.


    Lack of Integrity support may simply mean that a company that was active
    in VMS during alpha years is no longer active in VMS and didn't produce
    any paperwork stating its product would work on those IA64 things.

    In terms of going to those IA64 thing, you need to find out what
    communications protocol is used by those X terminals and terminal
    servers and if that protocol is available under IA64.

    $MC LANCP SHOW NODE
    $MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES

    If you find the node for the terminal or server, then use the command to
    display that nodes full characterictics. You'll need to manually
    recreate it on that IA64 thing.

  3. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    On Aug 3, 11:37 am, JF Mezei wrote:
    > tadamsmarwrote:
    > > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > > protocols, I think.

    >
    > Lack of Integrity support may simply mean that a company that was active
    > in VMS during alpha years is no longer active in VMS and didn't produce
    > any paperwork stating its product would work on those IA64 things.
    >
    > In terms of going to those IA64 thing, you need to find out what
    > communications protocol is used by those X terminals and terminal
    > servers and if that protocol is available under IA64.
    >
    > $MC LANCP SHOW NODE
    > $MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES
    >
    > If you find the node for the terminal or server, then use the command to
    > display that nodes full characterictics. You'll need to manually
    > recreate it on that IA64 thing.


    The terminal servers are under LANCP

    The X-terminals are under NCP

    I am not sure exactly what you mean by "the command to display that
    node's full characteristics"


  4. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity


    "tadamsmar" wrote in message
    news:1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > MRV.
    >
    > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    > supported by Tektronics.
    >
    > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.
    >
    > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?
    >
    > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    > status report:
    >
    > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html
    >
    > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > protocols, I think.
    >
    > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.
    >
    > Right, wrong, or depends?
    >


    Because we had no idea who might still be using what... I caused a stink
    and made them port the LAT transport and the other jiblets that we shipped
    on Alpha... now does that mean it will "work"? Since we have absolutely no
    way of testing these things (heck, I've never even heard of most of Xplex) -
    the only way to find out is to try it.

    Try to set it up the same way as you would on an Alpha... of course it
    doesn't help you much if you can't get access to an Itanium. I can't help
    with that - but others who read here might be able to.




  5. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    In article <1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.c om>,
    tadamsmar wrote:

    > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > MRV.
    >
    > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    > supported by Tektronics.
    >
    > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.
    >
    > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?
    >
    > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    > status report:
    >
    > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html
    >
    > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > protocols, I think.
    >
    > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.
    >
    > Right, wrong, or depends?


    How do the Alpha systems communicate with these devices?

    Both LAT and MOP protocols are available on Integrity. That doesn't
    mean every device using these protocols is guaranteed to work.

  6. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    On Aug 3, 10:27 am, tadamsmar wrote:
    > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > MRV.
    >
    > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    > supported by Tektronics.
    >
    > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.
    >
    > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?
    >
    > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    > status report:
    >
    > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html
    >
    > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > protocols, I think.
    >
    > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.
    >
    > Right, wrong, or depends?


    tadamsmar,

    As has been said, LAT and MOP are supported on Itanium. While I am not
    an HP (or historic Compaq or Digital employee), as a long time member
    of the community, it has not been any of the companies' policy to
    publish a compatibility list of third party products.

    Will it work with Integrity servers? In the cases of transports and
    downline loading, highly likely. This support has been basically been
    recompiled, not rewritten. As always, verification is recommended.

    - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com
    - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com


  7. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    FredK wrote:
    >
    > Try to set it up the same way as you would on an Alpha... of course it
    > doesn't help you much if you can't get access to an Itanium. I can't help
    > with that - but others who read here might be able to.


    Hello Fred,

    I have found an issue with an ancient copy of Reflection/X which appears
    to actually be a VMS DECWindows / DECTerm issue.

    None of the DECTerm bold fonts at 100dpi are the correct size on my PC.

    According to the logs and diagnostic messages, a big part of the problem
    is that the bold fonts being requested by the DECTerm do not exist on
    the DS10, and are not in any of the Font alias files for a fallback.

    I have font serving enabled on the DS10, and have verified that it is
    working. Before I activated it, Mozilla did not look very good.

    So apparently inside DECWindows-Motif, something is providing its own
    ailias to make the DECTerm fonts work.

    This is on:
    DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.6
    DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF_ECO02 V1.6
    DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V8.3

    Can you find out what bold fonts are that are being requested by
    DECterms and what bold fonts are actually used?

    That would allow me to edit the local Reflection/X font alias files.

    Thanks,
    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  8. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    tadamsmar wrote:
    > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > MRV.
    >
    > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    > supported by Tektronics.
    >
    > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.
    >
    > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?
    >
    > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    > status report:
    >
    > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html
    >
    > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > protocols, I think.
    >
    > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.
    >
    > Right, wrong, or depends?


    As you have been told, it depends.

    Many of the third party terminal servers and most of the third party
    X-Terminals were also designed to be used with UNIX in shops that had no
    VMS at all.

    While the early DECServers required a MOP download on boot to function,
    most of the 3rd party terminal servers did not.

    They only needed entries in the LANCP/DECNET Phase IV data base to allow
    management tools to talk to them, and also could use MOP to upgrade
    their firmware. Most of the third party terminal servers could use
    alternate programs to update their firmware.

    I seem to remember having a Xyplex at one time, and I do not remember if
    it really needed a MOP download.

    The third party decservers supported TCP/IP long before DECServers did.

    So there is a chance that the only thing that you need to do to use your
    Xyplex on an Integrity VMS system is to make sure that the LAT protocol
    is started.

    As far as managing it, you may need to use a console terminal port on
    it, or manually use LANCP commands to connect to it. It may also allow
    TCP/IP to be used to manage it, once a TCPIP address is assigned.

    I would recommend searching for a online manual for it, or checking to
    see if you can find out how UNIX users manage the device via TCP/IP.

    As far as X-terminals go, they were usually designed for UNIX, and
    usally will work in a TCP/IP only environment. Current TCP/IP and
    DECW-Motif both support TCP/IP including font servers.

    Older VMS versions did not provide that complete support using TCP/IP
    and third party X-11 servers that wanted the VMS market would put their
    own helper servers on the VMS systems to compensate.

    So it is likely that if you configure your X-terminals to treat VMS as a
    UNIX host and just use TCP/IP, they should just work, unless they need
    fonts served. In that case all you may need to do is turn on the font
    server on VMS in the DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_STARTUP.COM (check my
    spelling), as it is off by default, and set up the X-terminal to use it
    via TCP/IP just as if it were UNIX.

    And you do not have to wait to get a I64 system to verify all of this,
    because the ALPHA works the same way.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only



  9. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    I can't help you this week... ping me via mail next week.

    However, remember that the filename and the font name are not the same. The
    actual long-winded encoded fontnames are inside the font files. When the
    X11 server starts it reads a series of ".DIR" files that contain the
    mappings. This allows the server to get the font names without opening each
    font file.

    DECterm does not do any "aliasing".

    IIRC - look for the "bitstream" fonts. On a local, there should be a
    utility (check DECW$UTILS) to list the available fonts.


    "John E. Malmberg" wrote in message
    news:mR0ti.51151$Fc.31705@attbi_s21...
    > FredK wrote:
    >>
    >> Try to set it up the same way as you would on an Alpha... of course it
    >> doesn't help you much if you can't get access to an Itanium. I can't
    >> help with that - but others who read here might be able to.

    >
    > Hello Fred,
    >
    > I have found an issue with an ancient copy of Reflection/X which appears
    > to actually be a VMS DECWindows / DECTerm issue.
    >
    > None of the DECTerm bold fonts at 100dpi are the correct size on my PC.
    >
    > According to the logs and diagnostic messages, a big part of the problem
    > is that the bold fonts being requested by the DECTerm do not exist on the
    > DS10, and are not in any of the Font alias files for a fallback.
    >
    > I have font serving enabled on the DS10, and have verified that it is
    > working. Before I activated it, Mozilla did not look very good.
    >
    > So apparently inside DECWindows-Motif, something is providing its own
    > ailias to make the DECTerm fonts work.
    >
    > This is on:
    > DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.6
    > DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF_ECO02 V1.6
    > DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V8.3
    >
    > Can you find out what bold fonts are that are being requested by DECterms
    > and what bold fonts are actually used?
    >
    > That would allow me to edit the local Reflection/X font alias files.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > -John
    > wb8tyw@qsl.network
    > Personal Opinion Only




  10. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity


    "tadamsmar" wrote in message
    news:1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegro ups.com...
    > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > MRV.
    >

    ....
    >
    > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.
    >
    > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?


    We heavily use Xyplex terminal servers in our Alpha environment.

    Check to see if you are running the Xyplex Parameter Server. On our
    systems, the process name is XYP_SERVER running an image called
    XYP_SERVER.EXE. This process loads the terminal server's parameters after
    the terminal server's image has loaded. The process also periodically saves
    the terminal server's parameters up to the OpenVMS system. I don't believe
    you'll find the Parameter Server available on Itanium. The Alpha version
    appears to be a translated VAX version, so it may be possible to just
    translate it again.

    The Xyplex Parameter Server is not necessary to run the terminal servers,
    and you may not even be using it. Everything you're using may be stored on
    a local flash card. The Parameter Server is a convenience in case you have
    to replace a failed unit.

    Other than that one item, I wouldn't expect you'd have an issue on Itanium.
    As others have mentioned, testing is the only sure way to find out.

    If the PL/1 fiasco is ever settled, we may even find out ourselves if
    there's an issue with the terminal servers on Itanium.

    -Jeff



  11. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    On Aug 4, 11:44 am, "John E. Malmberg" wrote:
    > tadamsmarwrote:
    > > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by
    > > MRV.

    >
    > > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer
    > > supported by Tektronics.

    >
    > > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS.

    >
    > > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers?

    >
    > > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application
    > > status report:

    >
    > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/...partner_s.html

    >
    > > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on
    > > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing
    > > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication
    > > protocols, I think.

    >
    > > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and
    > > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work.

    >
    > > Right, wrong, or depends?

    >
    > As you have been told, it depends.
    >
    > Many of the third party terminal servers and most of the third party
    > X-Terminals were also designed to be used with UNIX in shops that had no
    > VMS at all.
    >
    > While the early DECServers required a MOP download on boot to function,
    > most of the 3rd party terminal servers did not.
    >
    > They only needed entries in the LANCP/DECNET Phase IV data base to allow
    > management tools to talk to them, and also could use MOP to upgrade
    > their firmware. Most of the third party terminal servers could use
    > alternate programs to update their firmware.
    >
    > I seem to remember having a Xyplex at one time, and I do not remember if
    > it really needed a MOP download.
    >
    > The third party decservers supported TCP/IP long before DECServers did.
    >
    > So there is a chance that the only thing that you need to do to use your
    > Xyplex on an Integrity VMS system is to make sure that the LAT protocol
    > is started.
    >
    > As far as managing it, you may need to use a console terminal port on
    > it, or manually use LANCP commands to connect to it. It may also allow
    > TCP/IP to be used to manage it, once a TCPIP address is assigned.
    >
    > I would recommend searching for a online manual for it, or checking to
    > see if you can find out how UNIX users manage the device via TCP/IP.
    >
    > As far as X-terminals go, they were usually designed for UNIX, and
    > usally will work in a TCP/IP only environment. Current TCP/IP and
    > DECW-Motif both support TCP/IP including font servers.
    >
    > Older VMS versions did not provide that complete support using TCP/IP
    > and third party X-11 servers that wanted the VMS market would put their
    > own helper servers on the VMS systems to compensate.
    >
    > So it is likely that if you configure your X-terminals to treat VMS as a
    > UNIX host and just use TCP/IP, they should just work, unless they need
    > fonts served. In that case all you may need to do is turn on the font
    > server on VMS in the DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_STARTUP.COM (check my
    > spelling), as it is off by default, and set up the X-terminal to use it
    > via TCP/IP just as if it were UNIX.
    >
    > And you do not have to wait to get a I64 system to verify all of this,
    > because the ALPHA works the same way.
    >
    > -John
    > wb8...@qsl.network
    > Personal Opinion Only- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    The terminal servers may be easy.

    But there is something call XP_SERVER running on our Alphas, and there
    is a [TEK] directory with comfiles and executables. So I need to
    check into how to address the Tektronics X-terminals.

    They are pretty old and no longer supported, I may just replace them.


  12. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 06:30:29 -0700, Jeff Goodwin
    wrote:

    > If the PL/1 fiasco is ever settled, we may even find out ourselves if
    > there's an issue with the terminal servers on Itanium.


    We are working on it.

    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  13. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    In article <1186407128.730322.286420@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
    tadamsmar writes:
    >
    > But there is something call XP_SERVER running on our Alphas, and there
    > is a [TEK] directory with comfiles and executables. So I need to
    > check into how to address the Tektronics X-terminals.


    They probably just use BOOTP/TFTP to load and should be usable with
    just about anything as the load server.

    >
    > They are pretty old and no longer supported, I may just replace them.


    In that case, feel free to put the old ones in a big box and send them
    to me. I like playing with X-terminals and I don't have any TEK ones
    in my collection yet. :-)

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  14. Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity

    On 08/06/07 08:32, tadamsmar wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > But there is something call XP_SERVER running on our Alphas, and there
    > is a [TEK] directory with comfiles and executables. So I need to
    > check into how to address the Tektronics X-terminals.
    >
    > They are pretty old and no longer supported, I may just replace them.


    With diskless Linux workstations?

    (Even if you buy dedicated X stations, that [or FreeBSD] is probably
    what they'll be on the inside.)

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  15. RE: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: tadamsmar [mailto:tadamsmar@yahoo.com]
    > Sent: August 6, 2007 9:32 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity
    >


    [snip]

    > >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > The terminal servers may be easy.
    >
    > But there is something call XP_SERVER running on our Alphas, and there
    > is a [TEK] directory with comfiles and executables. So I need to
    > check into how to address the Tektronics X-terminals.
    >
    > They are pretty old and no longer supported, I may just replace them.


    Something to keep in mind is that during any Alpha to Integrity migration planning, when the source is not available (company long gone, or bought outor whatever), there is also the option to translate Alpha images so that they run on Integrity. The OMSAIS utility is a free download from the HP web. Note that you may still need to sort out license issues - especially if it is based on serial number or no. of cpu`s etc.

    http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/pr...va/omsais.html

    HP OMSAIS includes two components:

    1. AlphaServer systems Environment Software Translator (AEST)-an HP OMSAIS utility that translates executable and shareable HP OpenVMS AlphaServer systems images into functionally equivalent images that run on HP OpenVMS on Integrity servers. A translated image is an HP OpenVMS Integrity server image containing both AlphaServer systems code that is translated into Integrity server code, as well as the original HP OpenVMS AlphaServer systems image..

    2. Translated Image Environment (TIE)-a software component that provides the runtime environment for translated image execution. TIE has been integrated into HP OpenVMS v8.2-1 for Integrity servers.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




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