Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? - VMS ; One thing you guys are missing, I am *not* using a "newsreader" - nor do I ever plan to use one. I see these messages as e-mail, and my local client, be that Outlook, Mail.app, or a web interface to ...

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Thread: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?

  1. Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?

    One thing you guys are missing, I am *not* using a "newsreader" - nor do I ever plan to use one.

    I see these messages as e-mail, and my local client, be that Outlook, Mail.app, or a web interface to Exchange or whatever, handles putting the e-mail into nice little neat folders. These folders are synchronized over several machines.

    I neither have reliable access to, nor do I wish to setup or pay for reliable access to a newserver. E-Mail suites me *much* better.

    All this whoohaw about "meeting internet standards" is sort of "not appicable", if you get my drift. The e-mail I send and recieve *is* compliant with all the relevant RFCs.

    Now, if there are things that I can easily do to make whatever transits the e-mail <==> newsgroup gateway work better for you guys, I am all for doing that. Such as sending messages in plain text instead of with decent and most often useful formatting. Also, I have no trouble at all withthreading, except where there has been too much editing going on.

    I'll also point out that the "standards" this group has IRT messages are far more local to this group than they are "universal" standards on the Internet. That means that every once in a while I might slip and format a message for here the way I would format it for say, the VM list. Personally, I prefer either TOP *or* BOTTOM posting, *or* an edited snippet with a Bottom Post.

    Note that in the "old" days, it was considered good form to include the entire posting history, because a lot of sites did not recieve all the messages and you wanted to be able to reference what was said 10 or 15 postsago. Today, threading e-mail and (I guess) newsreader software does thatfor you, so there is little need to include everything. But for heavens sake, unless you are on a 9600bps per packed modem connection, who cares?

    And yes, this message is purposely top posted because I am making a general answer to several posts.

    I find it difficult to believe that in 2007, everyone here does not have access to a PC, Mac, or even a Linux machine with software than can handle anything and everything thrown at it.

    For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not* format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it using tin ona Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.

    I respectfully submit that the issues under complaint most likely are being caused by factors that are not easily within the sphere of my control.


    >On 08/02/07 01:16, JF Mezei wrote:
    >[snip]
    >>
    >> Microsoft truly does not want to adhere to internet standards at all.
    >>

    >
    >Stop agreeing with me!!!! It's bad for my image!
    >
    >--
    >Ron Johnson, Jr.
    >Jefferson LA USA




  2. Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?

    Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not*
    > format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it using tin
    > on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.


    BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most definitely
    did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one line and
    finished at the beginning of another.

    Zane


  3. RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?

    I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from a
    blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? It
    formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same under
    Firefox.

    Could it be you are using an ancient version or something?
    -Paul


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
    > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    >
    > Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not*
    > > format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it

    > using tin
    > > on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.

    >
    > BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most
    > definitely
    > did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one line
    > and
    > finished at the beginning of another.
    >
    > Zane




  4. Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?


    Linux Thunderbird in nntp mode does properly wrap your 02 Aug 2007
    14:17:47 +0000 post. Because it's quoted-printable, though, it
    wraps at "window width", not at column 72/76/whatever. Not a
    problem for a GUI user, just a comment.

    However... *Something* is causing some paragraphs in posts by
    users-of-Outlook to be strung out in one long continuous line. If
    the problem isn't "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable",
    then it might be:
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

    Whatever the cause, 75% of our computing problems (except Info-VAX
    threading) would be solved if people stopped using MSFT products,
    and another 20% if people who don't enjoy computers would stop using
    them.


    On 08/03/07 20:19, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from a
    > blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? It
    > formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same under
    > Firefox.
    >
    > Could it be you are using an ancient version or something?
    > -Paul
    >
    >
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
    >> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    >>
    >> Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >>> For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not*
    >>> format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it

    >> using tin
    >>> on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.

    >> BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most
    >> definitely
    >> did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one line
    >> and
    >> finished at the beginning of another.
    >>
    >> Zane

    >
    >



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  5. RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?

    The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however,
    even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as
    you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader.

    However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means
    whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers
    for plain text. And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the
    end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain.
    Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their
    display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the
    issue in versions before 7 in fact...

    Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across
    as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded
    and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs
    above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph
    are.

    So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs
    of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am
    beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here,
    we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA.

    -Paul




    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:13 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    >
    >
    > Linux Thunderbird in nntp mode does properly wrap your 02 Aug 2007
    > 14:17:47 +0000 post. Because it's quoted-printable, though, it
    > wraps at "window width", not at column 72/76/whatever. Not a
    > problem for a GUI user, just a comment.
    >
    > However... *Something* is causing some paragraphs in posts by
    > users-of-Outlook to be strung out in one long continuous line. If
    > the problem isn't "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable",
    > then it might be:
    > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
    >
    > Whatever the cause, 75% of our computing problems (except Info-VAX
    > threading) would be solved if people stopped using MSFT products,
    > and another 20% if people who don't enjoy computers would stop using
    > them.
    >
    >
    > On 08/03/07 20:19, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from

    > a
    > > blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what?

    > It
    > > formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same

    > under
    > > Firefox.
    > >
    > > Could it be you are using an ancient version or something?
    > > -Paul
    > >
    > >
    > >> -----Original Message-----
    > >> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
    > >> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM
    > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    > >>
    > >> Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > >>> For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does

    > *not*
    > >>> format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it
    > >> using tin
    > >>> on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.
    > >> BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most
    > >> definitely
    > >> did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one

    > line
    > >> and
    > >> finished at the beginning of another.
    > >>
    > >> Zane

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA
    >
    > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!



  6. Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?


    It appears that your reply was auto-wrapped by your client.

    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="us-ascii"

    On 08/04/07 12:56, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however,
    > even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as
    > you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader.
    >
    > However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means
    > whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers
    > for plain text. And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the
    > end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain.
    > Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their
    > display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the
    > issue in versions before 7 in fact...
    >
    > Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across
    > as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded
    > and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs
    > above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph
    > are.
    >
    > So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs
    > of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am
    > beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here,
    > we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA.
    >
    > -Paul
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    >> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:13 AM
    >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    >>
    >>
    >> Linux Thunderbird in nntp mode does properly wrap your 02 Aug 2007
    >> 14:17:47 +0000 post. Because it's quoted-printable, though, it
    >> wraps at "window width", not at column 72/76/whatever. Not a
    >> problem for a GUI user, just a comment.
    >>
    >> However... *Something* is causing some paragraphs in posts by
    >> users-of-Outlook to be strung out in one long continuous line. If
    >> the problem isn't "Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable",
    >> then it might be:
    >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
    >>
    >> Whatever the cause, 75% of our computing problems (except Info-VAX
    >> threading) would be solved if people stopped using MSFT products,
    >> and another 20% if people who don't enjoy computers would stop using
    >> them.
    >>
    >>
    >> On 08/03/07 20:19, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >>> I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from

    >> a
    >>> blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what?

    >> It
    >>> formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same

    >> under
    >>> Firefox.
    >>>
    >>> Could it be you are using an ancient version or something?
    >>> -Paul
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> -----Original Message-----
    >>>> From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
    >>>> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM
    >>>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >>>> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever?
    >>>>
    >>>> Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >>>>> For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does

    >> *not*
    >>>>> format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it
    >>>> using tin
    >>>>> on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues.
    >>>> BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most
    >>>> definitely
    >>>> did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one

    >> line
    >>>> and
    >>>> finished at the beginning of another.


    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  7. Re: Kerry needs a news reader

    Paul Raulerson wrote using:

    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="us-ascii"

    > The FLOWED option does leave the formatting to the reader/client, however,
    > even the most ancient newsreader I can think of handled flowed text, and as
    > you point out, it is nothing for a GUI reader.


    That is because flowed text was sent with lines actually wrapped at
    about 76 characters.

    So it behaves as expected on most news and e-mail clients, including
    terminal based ones.

    Where it mis-behaves is on Mozilla and Thunderbird, where it violates
    What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get.

    Mozilla does not allow you to turn off the format-flowed through a setup
    option. Advanced users can hack the scripts inside of Mozilla to do this.

    When composing a plain-text format-flowed message, Mozilla wraps the
    lines at 76 characters for the composer. So the composer does not see
    how their text is going to look at the other end. Particularly if they
    are also manually wrapping some lines.

    There is no way for a composer on Mozilla to determine by just looking
    at it if the lines are wrapping because of manual formatting or by auto
    wrapping.

    Bug reports on these issues have had several birthdays with out any
    resolution.

    Mozilla is also not handling wrapping properly on quoting some messages.

    I do not know if there is a bug open on that one. Based on that almost
    the only activity on the other bugs that I have files is other people
    seeing them on other platforms, it does not appear to be worth the
    effort to file any more bugs.

    > However, these tags are in the MIME header, not the basic e-mail. That means
    > whatever reader has is being used must know how to decode the Mime headers
    > for plain text.


    No it should not unless something in the sending system is set up wrong.
    MIME is an extension that is supposed to be backwards compatible with
    the oldest mail and news reader.

    The older mail and news readers may not be able to handle content that
    is MIME encoded, but the plain-text part of the message should still be
    following the same old rules/guidelines as before.

    MIME content shows up on the text based mail and news readers as a mess.

    Where it really shows up as a mess is with people who get the digest
    version of a mailing list, because it typically shows up as two to three
    screen full of garbage in in the middle of a series of messages.
    The info-vax mailing list is one of those with a digest mode.

    Other mailing lists have solved this issue by putting in a MIME stripper
    program. It simply removes all MIME content. On some lists, plain text
    attachments for submitted patches are the only allowed MIME content.

    In general on a technical mailing lists, having MIME content in the
    message is usually a 90% indicator that the message is spam or a virus,
    and a 8% indicator that this is the first exposure of a user to usenet,
    and a 1% indication of an accidental mis-setup of the mail/news program
    on the sending side.

    > And it is very common indeed to not insert linefeeds at the
    > end of each sentence, but rather at the end of each paragraph in text/plain.


    That is a function of the client at either composition time or at
    display time, and does not need to or should reflect how the message was
    sent over the wire.

    > Some web browsers have trouble with that as well, refusing to do their
    > display job and appropriately wrap the text. One of your favorites has the
    > issue in versions before 7 in fact...


    If you would follow usenet conventions and intersperse your comments
    below quoted text of what you are commenting on, then I might have some
    idea of what you are referring to. As it is, what you are doing is
    top-posting, which is not the general convention of this news-group /
    mailing list, or any of the other technical newsgroups or mailing lists
    that I subscribe to.

    It took a few years to get Kerry to stop top posting though as I recall.
    The default configuration of Outlook at his place of employment is to
    set it up for top posting, and not easy to flip it back and forth
    between what the company wants and what is normal for news groups and
    mailing lists.

    In those cases, it is just simpler to just use the corporate supplied
    e-mail program for just company e-mail and use a different mail/news
    client that is configured for usenet and mailing list conventions for
    all else.

    The OpenVMS FAQ has a section on netiquette and some links to some long
    articles.

    > Is the Content-transfer-encoding header coming across
    > as 7bit or quoted-printable? 7bit allows CRLF to be embeded
    > and used only at the end of a line of course. The two paragraphs
    > above are not wrapped by hand, while this and the next paragraph
    > are.


    Looking at the source to the message, shows that all the lines from your
    post are properly wrapped, except for the Path: header line, which is
    normally not displayed.

    The text that that you did not manually wrap are 75 characters wide, and
    as such suitable for all news/mail readers.

    The text that you manually is shorter, and likewise suitable.

    Of course, I do not know if the mail to news gateway changed anything,
    only a mailing list subscriber could tell that.

    quoted printable shows up on older mail/news clients as having a bunch
    of "=" signs at the ends of lines that are longer than about 76
    characters. It also replaces some characters with an = sign and two HEX
    characters, in most cases characters that do not need to be replaced, or
    occasionally replacing single quote characters with some other code in
    the specified character set.

    Some mail/news clients will only go into quoted printable mode when the
    composer types in a character that requires it.

    According to posts by Robert Deiningner, Outlook (not Outlook Express)
    is stuck in always sending quoted printable when you request plain text,
    and he is looking for a solution, other than the obvious one of just
    using a different program.

    > So this should appear as two lines with a two pairs
    > of CRLF endings between it and the last paragraph. What I am
    > beginning to suspect is that to make a few people happy here,
    > we will have to manually wrap messages, which is a real PITA.


    Mail and news clients that are sending plain text (or close to it)
    should be wrapping the lines at about 76 characters in the messages they
    send over the wire.

    That appears to be the default for Microsoft Outlook and other programs
    that I have used.

    In Outlook, it is under Tools=>Options=>[Mail Format tab][Internet
    Format...] under Plain text options.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only

  8. Re: Kerry needs a news reader

    On 08/04/07 15:37, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >
    >> If you would follow usenet conventions and intersperse your comments
    >> below quoted text of what you are commenting on, then I might have some
    >> idea of what you are referring to. As it is, what you are doing is
    >> top-posting, which is not the general convention of this news-group /
    >> mailing list, or any of the other technical newsgroups or mailing lists
    >> that I subscribe to.
    >>

    >
    > That is because it is not a "Usenet Convention" issue. In plain simple fact,
    > it is not even a Usenet tradition, it is something that a few newsgroup
    > advocate because of membership, and politeness, not convention, is the
    > reason to do it.


    We must have run in different technical newsgroups, then.

    > Besides which, some of us remember both Bitnet lists (which is more the
    > "convention" I am from) and also the costs of transporting newsgroups around
    > using 1200bps modems -considered *fast* in their day. I even ran a public
    > access UNIX system for years pulling usenet traffic off the systems at
    > Rutgers.


    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  9. Re: Kerry needs a news reader

    Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it is

    > *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense
    > actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation.


    I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the
    internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults, was
    always:

    CR-LF after EACH line.
    Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your
    additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for this.



    What I have noticed with Windows pollution is that people don't even
    know about all the tons of megabytes of crap they are appending after
    their 2 lines of comments because it is at the bottom and they don't
    realise all the crap that they really should be cutting out. And of
    course, one has no idea to which paragraph within all the megabytes of
    quoted text the poster refers to with his 2 lines of text.

    Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own
    contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted text.

    But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it
    may be quite different in your universe.

  10. Re: Kerry needs a news reader

    On 08/04/07 19:31, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >>> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it is

    >> *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense
    >> actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation.

    >
    > I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the
    > internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults, was
    > always:
    >
    > CR-LF after EACH line.
    > Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your
    > additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for this.
    >
    >
    >
    > What I have noticed with Windows pollution is that people don't even
    > know about all the tons of megabytes of crap they are appending after
    > their 2 lines of comments because it is at the bottom and they don't
    > realise all the crap that they really should be cutting out. And of
    > course, one has no idea to which paragraph within all the megabytes of
    > quoted text the poster refers to with his 2 lines of text.
    >
    > Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own
    > contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted text.
    >
    > But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it
    > may be quite different in your universe.


    You and I live in the same universe. Except that you're Canadian.

    Help America Fight The Canadians!
    Everyone hates Canadians.
    You surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  11. RE: Kerry needs a news reader



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 7:32 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader
    >
    > Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > >> Again, Top Posting is not only *normal* for many mailing lists, it

    > is
    > > *encouraged*. And has been for over 35 years. It makes a lot of sense
    > > actually, and it leaves a good record of the entire conversation.

    >
    > I obviously live in a very different universe. Where I live, the
    > internet, before windows started to mess with its opposite defaults,
    > was
    > always:
    >
    > CR-LF after EACH line.
    > Always quote only what is necessary at the top and follow with your
    > additional comments at the bottom. There were very good reasons for
    > this.
    >


    I'm unaware of any system that uses CR/LF conventions other than
    Dos/Windows, unless VMS is doing so.
    Most large systems use record formats, or LF conventions. Or X'25' if you
    happen to be in EBCDIC.
    I've never looked to see what VMS is using for text files, but if it is
    CRLF, then I can see your point.


    Adding more than you quote is reasonable, and still conventional in many
    places; I wish it were the convention here to be honest, but I am a newcomer
    and will tend to comply as far as reasonable.

    And when I say "top post" what I am really saying is close to what you
    describe - extract a quote and post, unless of course, you are writing an
    essay that applies to the entire message or a thread. Then just top post and
    leave the rest for reference. I really do not like quoting stuff like this
    in the middle of a message.

    and putting in a
    [snip]
    when you remove a lot of text is also often considered polite.

    The problem of course, being that some people will selectively edit things.
    In which cases, repeating the entire post is a better idea.

    >
    > But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so it
    > may be quite different in your universe.


    Of course we do, technologically speaking as we as politically. VMS
    "culture" is quite different from UNIX or Mainframe cultures - VMS and the
    Alpha *and* Itanium platforms are very *very* good - and yet lacks some
    things that to me are simply incomprehensible, or more likely, those things
    are implemented in a way that I don't quickly recognize. HP is that way too
    - DSPP membership does not give you online access to technical support
    resources.

    Do you know how utterly crazy it is for HP to let you *search* the ITRC (?)
    database, see a list of relevant hits on the search criteria, and yet NOT
    LET YOU ACCESS THEM?

    Does the work "insane" begin to apply here? Aw well... different strokes
    different folks. You would go nuts in the world I inhabit most likely.

    -Paul


  12. RE: Kerry needs a news reader

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: August 4, 2007 9:01 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader
    >


    [snip...]

    > > Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own
    > > contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted text.
    > >
    > > But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of you so

    > it
    > > may be quite different in your universe.

    >
    > You and I live in the same universe. Except that you're Canadian.
    >
    > Help America Fight The Canadians!
    > Everyone hates Canadians.
    > You surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto.
    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA
    >
    > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!


    Face it .. the US will soon be Canada's 11th province.

    About the only thing that has not been settled is how to tell those in Texas that they have to give up their 14 guns per household and that they need to learn to speak French.

    Other than perhaps convincing US folks to give up on baseball and football to learn hockey, the rest should go smoothly.

    :-)

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  13. YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and
    binding them to say, a function key.

    I would like to modify the behavior of the exit key so that it only exists
    the current buffer displayed on the screen, while still asking to save it if
    necessary before dropping it. I admit, being an ISPF/XEDIT bigot here, I
    routinely have two, three, or more files open in the same editor session and
    cut and paste between them.

    But my fingers forget what my brain tells 'em, and I keep finding myself
    closing out an entire editing session, instead of just the one file I am
    interested in closing.

    Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a file, it
    currently says it does not take any arguments.

    Thanks
    -Paul




  14. Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and
    > binding them to say, a function key.


    DIR SYS$EXAMPLES:*.TPU

    This will give you tons of examples.

    You create your TPU commands, put them in a file such as
    sys$login:TPU$COMMAND.TPU and then in your login.com,
    DEFINE TPU$COMMAND SYS$LOGIN:TPU$COMMAND.TPU

    Whenever you start the editors, those commands gets executed.

    example:
    define_key (eve$$kt_return + "eve_two_windows", KP2,
    "Split window");


    Now, you can create your own functions, and instead of
    "eve_two_windows", call your own function that does multiple things to
    your liking.


    For a one shot deal while editing:

    [DO] LEARN then do your key sequences, press and then press
    the key you want defined. Then, whenever you press that key, the key
    sequence gets done again. This is extremely powerful.

  15. Re: Kerry needs a news reader

    On 08/05/07 09:16, Main, Kerry wrote:
    >> -----Original Message----- From: Ron Johnson
    >> [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] Sent: August 4, 2007 9:01 PM To:
    >> Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader
    >>

    >
    > [snip...]
    >
    >>> Oh and yeah, the convention was that almost always, your own
    >>> contributions had to be more lines than the amount of quoted
    >>> text.
    >>>
    >>> But then again, I don't live in the same universe and all of
    >>> you so

    >> it
    >>> may be quite different in your universe.

    >> You and I live in the same universe. Except that you're
    >> Canadian.
    >>
    >> Help America Fight The Canadians! Everyone hates Canadians. You
    >> surrender pronto, or we'll level Toronto.
    >>

    >
    > Face it .. the US will soon be Canada's 11th province.
    >
    > About the only thing that has not been settled is how to tell
    > those in Texas that they have to give up their 14 guns per


    I read one time that Canada has more guns per capita than the US
    does. Don't know if it's true, and it might not be anymore, but I
    wouldn't be surprised if at one time (back before the 1980s) it was
    true.

    > household and that they need to learn to speak French.


    Swine will fly out our collective rectum before that happens.

    Besides, we'll be Mexico's 32nd thru 81st states.


    > Other than perhaps convincing US folks to give up on baseball and
    > football to learn hockey, the rest should go smoothly.


    Toronto Blue Jays? Canadian Football League?

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  16. Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    On 08/05/07 10:13, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and
    > binding them to say, a function key.
    >
    > I would like to modify the behavior of the exit key so that it only exists
    > the current buffer displayed on the screen, while still asking to save it if
    > necessary before dropping it. I admit, being an ISPF/XEDIT bigot here, I
    > routinely have two, three, or more files open in the same editor session and
    > cut and paste between them.
    >
    > But my fingers forget what my brain tells 'em, and I keep finding myself
    > closing out an entire editing session, instead of just the one file I am
    > interested in closing.
    >
    > Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a file, it
    > currently says it does not take any arguments.


    You've got to first tell us which editor you are using.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  17. RE: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net]
    > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 12:11 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question
    >
    > On 08/05/07 10:13, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and
    > > binding them to say, a function key.
    > >
    > > I would like to modify the behavior of the exit key so that it only

    > exists
    > > the current buffer displayed on the screen, while still asking to

    > save it if
    > > necessary before dropping it. I admit, being an ISPF/XEDIT bigot

    > here, I
    > > routinely have two, three, or more files open in the same editor

    > session and
    > > cut and paste between them.
    > >
    > > But my fingers forget what my brain tells 'em, and I keep finding

    > myself
    > > closing out an entire editing session, instead of just the one file I

    > am
    > > interested in closing.
    > >
    > > Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a

    > file, it
    > > currently says it does not take any arguments.

    >
    > You've got to first tell us which editor you are using.
    >


    Sorry - the default editor for 8.3- EVE. I have most of the defines I want
    in an EVE$INIT.EVE file, but looks like I will have to LISP a bit over to
    the TPU commands file that JFM referenced in a previous message.

    -Paul


  18. Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    On 08/05/07 12:11, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 08/05/07 10:13, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >> How does one go about stringing multiple editor commands together and
    >> binding them to say, a function key.
    >>
    >> I would like to modify the behavior of the exit key so that it only exists
    >> the current buffer displayed on the screen, while still asking to save it if
    >> necessary before dropping it.


    Use this instead:
    D B

    That's short for DROP BUFFER. (Case-insensitive, of course.) It
    then prompts you to save the buffer or delete it.

    > I admit, being an ISPF/XEDIT bigot here, I
    >> routinely have two, three, or more files open in the same editor session and
    >> cut and paste between them.


    Whenever you have such thoughts, repeat the mantra:
    DEC programmers weren't stupid. They made a powerful editor.
    I just don't know all the secrets.

    >> But my fingers forget what my brain tells 'em, and I keep finding myself
    >> closing out an entire editing session, instead of just the one file I am
    >> interested in closing.
    >>
    >> Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a file, it
    >> currently says it does not take any arguments.


    GET filespec

    > You've got to first tell us which editor you are using.
    >



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  19. RE: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    >
    > Use this instead:
    > D B
    >
    > That's short for DROP BUFFER. (Case-insensitive, of course.) It
    > then prompts you to save the buffer or delete it.
    >

    I don't seem to have a "DROP BUFFER" command here; just a "DELETE BUFFER",
    which prompts
    for the buffer name type of thing. What I really want is what EXIT does, but
    just limited
    to a single buffer.


    > >> Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a

    > file, it
    > >> currently says it does not take any arguments.

    >
    > GET filespec
    >


    That's good! I've been doing a new than a GET after the buffer is
    created.
    This is much simpler.

    -Paul




  20. Re: YAEQ: Yet Another Editor Question

    On 08/05/07 13:21, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >> Use this instead:
    >> D B
    >>
    >> That's short for DROP BUFFER. (Case-insensitive, of course.) It
    >> then prompts you to save the buffer or delete it.
    >>

    > I don't seem to have a "DROP BUFFER" command here; just a "DELETE BUFFER",
    > which prompts


    Ah, sorry. I just type " D B", and forgot that it's DELETE
    instead of DROP.

    > for the buffer name type of thing. What I really want is what EXIT does, but
    > just limited
    > to a single buffer.


    True. "DELETE BUFFER CURRENT" would be helpful, I guess, but when
    it prompts me, I just copy-and-paste the buffer name.

    The SecureCRT terminal emulator makes that handy because it does
    X-Windows-style copy-on-select.

    >>>> Also, it would be nice to be able to hit NEW and have it ask for a

    >> file, it
    >>>> currently says it does not take any arguments.

    >> GET filespec
    >>

    >
    > That's good! I've been doing a new than a GET after the buffer is
    > created.
    > This is much simpler.
    >
    > -Paul
    >
    >
    >



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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