Re: July the 4th - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: July the 4th - VMS ; On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: [snip] > > Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > well fraught with fighting those exact ...

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Thread: Re: July the 4th

  1. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.


    Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    > Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > their first really successful one.


    Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  2. Re: July the 4th

    Ron Johnson wrote:
    >
    > On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > [snip]
    > >
    > > Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > > fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > > well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > > Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > > including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.

    >
    > Three words: Theo van Gogh.
    >
    > > Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > > airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > > that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > > their first really successful one.

    >
    > Two more words: Achille Lauro.


    ....and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  3. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:
    > Ron Johnson wrote:
    >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >> [snip]
    >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.

    >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.
    >>
    >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    >>> their first really successful one.

    >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    >
    > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.


    Boy do I agree with that!!!!!

    Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.

    The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.

    [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    neolithic era.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  4. Re: July the 4th

    On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:
    >
    > > Ron Johnson wrote:
    > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > >> [snip]
    > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    >
    > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > >>> their first really successful one.
    > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    >
    > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    >
    > Boy do I agree with that!!!!!
    >
    > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.
    >
    > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.
    >
    > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > neolithic era.
    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA

    [...]

    I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.

    Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11,
    hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. Are
    the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget
    that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    you expect them to do?

    Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.

    Ron,

    Your other posts in this thread are very good. Thanks!

    AEF


  5. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/31/07 18:36, AEF wrote:
    > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    >> On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:
    >>
    >>> Ron Johnson wrote:
    >>>> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    >>>> [snip]
    >>>>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    >>>>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    >>>>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    >>>>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    >>>>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    >>>> Three words: Theo van Gogh.
    >>>>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    >>>>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    >>>>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    >>>>> their first really successful one.
    >>>> Two more words: Achille Lauro.
    >>> ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    >>> of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    >>> world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    >> Boy do I agree with that!!!!!
    >>
    >> Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    >> over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.
    >>
    >> The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    >> "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.
    >>
    >> [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    >> there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    >> neolithic era.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Ron Johnson, Jr.
    >> Jefferson LA USA

    > [...]
    >
    > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.


    Sure. But they weren't the ones taking the offensive.

    We'll never know if they urged the counter-attack.

    > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11,
    > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. Are
    > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed?


    Of course not. You're merging me with JF, and it's affecting your
    judgment.

    > Don't forget
    > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > you expect them to do?


    Act like sheep, and hope that The Government Saved Them.

    In how many school shootings or bank robberies have the people who
    had the capacity to Do Something not done it, because they've been
    conditioned by The Authorities to Wait For Rescue? Lots.

    Three cheers for Liviu Librescu and the various others who
    sacrificed themselves to save others at VA Tech.

    > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.


    As stated earlier, you are misinterpreting me.

    > Ron,
    >
    > Your other posts in this thread are very good. Thanks!
    >
    > AEF
    >



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  6. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 1, 6:59 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 07/31/07 18:36, AEF wrote:
    >
    > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > >> On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > >>> Ron Johnson wrote:
    > >>>> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > >>>> [snip]
    > >>>>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > >>>>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > >>>>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > >>>>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > >>>>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > >>>> Three words: Theo van Gogh.
    > >>>>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > >>>>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > >>>>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > >>>>> their first really successful one.
    > >>>> Two more words: Achille Lauro.
    > >>> ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > >>> of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > >>> world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.
    > >> Boy do I agree with that!!!!!

    >
    > >> Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > >> over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.

    >
    > >> The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > >> "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.

    >
    > >> [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > >> there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > >> neolithic era.

    >
    > >> --
    > >> Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > >> Jefferson LA USA

    > > [...]

    >
    > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.

    >
    > Sure. But they weren't the ones taking the offensive.


    How do you know they didn't participate?

    > We'll never know if they urged the counter-attack.
    >
    > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11,
    > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. Are
    > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed?

    >
    > Of course not. You're merging me with JF, and it's affecting your
    > judgment.


    How did JF get involved in this? Wasn't it David you replied to?

    >
    > > Don't forget
    > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > > you expect them to do?

    >
    > Act like sheep, and hope that The Government Saved Them.


    C'mon. Most hijackings end up with few people being killed. Why should
    the people on the 9/11 flights have thought any differently? They
    didn't know they were going to fly into buildings. C'mon.

    >
    > In how many school shootings or bank robberies have the people who
    > had the capacity to Do Something not done it, because they've been
    > conditioned by The Authorities to Wait For Rescue? Lots.


    I'm not aware of any. I do recall the two thugs with massive firepower
    in LA shooting left and right after robbing a bank and even the cops
    had trouble stopping them.

    >
    > Three cheers for Liviu Librescu and the various others who
    > sacrificed themselves to save others at VA Tech.
    >
    > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.

    >
    > As stated earlier, you are misinterpreting me.


    Whatever.

    >
    > > Ron,

    >
    > > Your other posts in this thread are very good. Thanks!

    >
    > > AEF

    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA


    [...]

    AEF


  7. Re: July the 4th

    OK! Almost a month has gone by. How about changing the subject to
    something more explosive, like Aug. 6th?

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  8. Re: July the 4th

    AEF wrote:
    >
    > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:
    > >
    > > > Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > >> [snip]
    > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    > >
    > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > > >>> their first really successful one.
    > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    > >
    > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    > >
    > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!!
    > >
    > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.
    > >
    > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.
    > >
    > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > > neolithic era.

    > [...]
    >
    > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.
    >
    > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT.


    When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making
    threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is
    there?

    > Until 9/11,
    > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building.


    Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you
    don't believe in consequences, do you?).

    > Are
    > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget
    > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > you expect them to do?


    The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility
    for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command".

    (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.)

    > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.


    Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    defending.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  9. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > AEF wrote:
    >
    > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > > > > Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > > >> [snip]
    > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    >
    > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > > > >>> their first really successful one.
    > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    >
    > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    >
    > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!!

    >
    > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.

    >
    > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.

    >
    > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > > > neolithic era.

    > > [...]

    >
    > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.

    >
    > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT.

    >
    > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making
    > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is
    > there?


    And just how were the passengers and crew supposed to know that this
    was a different type of hijacking? I don't recall all passengers being
    killed in previous hijackings. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except
    that it is useless when it's most needed.

    >
    > > Until 9/11,
    > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building.

    >
    > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you
    > don't believe in consequences, do you?).


    You lost me here. I never said I didn't believe in consequences. Try
    again.

    >
    > > Are
    > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget
    > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > > you expect them to do?

    >
    > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility
    > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command".
    >
    > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.)


    And YOU never made a mistake when YOU were responsible for something?
    Please. I suppose we should condemn the police who were gunned down by
    crooks while we're at it. And condemn all those commanders who lost
    ships and tanks and planes in all the wars. Gee, it was their
    responsibility not to get shot down and to instead destroy the enemy.
    Get real.

    Try again.

    >
    > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.

    >
    > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    > defending.


    Talk about utter nonsense!!! Try again. Actually, don't -- I'm tired
    of this nonsense.

    > --
    > David J Dachtera

    [...]

    AEF


  10. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > AEF wrote:
    >
    > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > > > > Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > > >> [snip]
    > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    >
    > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > > > >>> their first really successful one.
    > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    >
    > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    >
    > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!!

    >
    > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.

    >
    > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.

    >
    > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > > > neolithic era.

    > > [...]

    >
    > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.

    >
    > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT.

    >
    > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making
    > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is
    > there?
    >
    > > Until 9/11,
    > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building.

    >
    > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you
    > don't believe in consequences, do you?).
    >
    > > Are
    > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget
    > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > > you expect them to do?

    >
    > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility
    > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command".
    >
    > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.)
    >
    > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.

    >
    > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    > defending.


    I'll try one more stab at it.

    Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a
    hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD
    NOT be flown into a building or similar. Since the outcome of fighting
    them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    the hijackers.

    People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will
    cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect?

    Defending what? Vigilante-ism? Enough of that and you'll get riots and
    other chaos, not to mention tragedies of accident and injustice.

    You can't use the wonders of hindsight until after it's too late. OK?

    >
    > --
    > David J Dachtera

    [...]

    AEF


  11. Re: July the 4th

    In article <1185924988.093607.305920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.c om>, AEF writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.
    >
    >Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    >planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    >OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11,
    >hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    >else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    >hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11


    Precisely! This is why I believe they tried to do as much damage on
    that one day as possible. Once we were wise to it, it would be very
    difficult for them to mount a similar type of attack in the future as
    passengers would not sit quietly facing possible/certain death without
    a fight.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  12. Re: July the 4th

    AEF wrote:
    >
    > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    > wrote:
    > > AEF wrote:
    > >
    > > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote:

    > >
    > > > > > Ron Johnson wrote:
    > > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote:
    > > > > >> [snip]
    > > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the
    > > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty
    > > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The
    > > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while,
    > > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia.
    > > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh.

    > >
    > > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming
    > > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did
    > > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just
    > > > > >>> their first really successful one.
    > > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro.

    > >
    > > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews
    > > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire
    > > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness.

    > >
    > > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!!

    > >
    > > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend
    > > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc.

    > >
    > > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than
    > > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol.

    > >
    > > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic
    > > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the
    > > > > neolithic era.
    > > > [...]

    > >
    > > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too.

    > >
    > > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other
    > > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO
    > > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT.

    > >
    > > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making
    > > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is
    > > there?

    >
    > And just how were the passengers and crew supposed to know that this
    > was a different type of hijacking? I don't recall all passengers being
    > killed in previous hijackings. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except
    > that it is useless when it's most needed.


    Well, let's see now...

    1. The media are rife with reports of these nuts killing in the name of Allah.
    2. I believe it was supposed to five nuts stand up, invoke Allah, threaten the
    crew and passengers.

    Now, under what circumstances would one *NOT* consider that no one was coming
    out that alive?

    > >
    > > > Until 9/11,
    > > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything
    > > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a
    > > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11
    > > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe
    > > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building.

    > >
    > > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you
    > > don't believe in consequences, do you?).

    >
    > You lost me here. I never said I didn't believe in consequences. Try
    > again.


    No need to try again. Got it right the first time.

    > >
    > > > Are
    > > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget
    > > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did
    > > > you expect them to do?

    > >
    > > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility
    > > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command".
    > >
    > > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.)

    >
    > And YOU never made a mistake when YOU were responsible for something?
    > Please. I suppose we should condemn the police who were gunned down by
    > crooks while we're at it. And condemn all those commanders who lost
    > ships and tanks and planes in all the wars. Gee, it was their
    > responsibility not to get shot down and to instead destroy the enemy.
    > Get real.


    I am, thank you very much.

    > Try again.


    No need - got it right the first time.

    ....oh, and by the way: abandoning one's primary responsibility is not a
    "mistake".

    > >
    > > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical.

    > >
    > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    > > defending.

    >
    > Talk about utter nonsense!!! Try again. Actually, don't -- I'm tired
    > of this nonsense.


    If duty, courage and honor are "utter nonsense" to you, then I guess you're
    hopeless.

    As for me, no need to try again - I got it right the first time.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  13. Re: July the 4th

    AEF wrote:
    >
    > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    > wrote:
    > > [snip]
    > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    > > defending.

    >
    > I'll try one more stab at it.
    >
    > Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a
    > hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD
    > NOT be flown into a building or similar.


    Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to apply such probability
    theories in a situation involving psychotic, suicidal/homicidal criminals intent
    upon commiting the gravest of crimes/sins?

    > Since the outcome of fighting
    > them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    > prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    > the hijackers.


    Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    again to go commit their heinous acts.

    M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?

    > People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will
    > cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect?


    WTF does that have to do with anything?

    > Defending what? Vigilante-ism?


    Duty, courage and honor. Look 'em up if you need to.

    They are used to defend freedom, liberty and the innocent.

    I'll expend no further effort to this pursuit. I'd do better trying to describe
    color to someone who was born blind.

    --
    David J Dachtera
    dba DJE Systems
    http://www.djesys.com/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/

    Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

    Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

    Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

  14. Re: July the 4th

    On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote:
    > AEF wrote:

    [snip]
    >
    >> Since the outcome of fighting
    >> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    >> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    >> the hijackers.

    >
    > Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    > again to go commit their heinous acts.
    >
    > M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?


    Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct.

    Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and
    occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and
    hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American
    overboard.

    Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use
    airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles.

    HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound
    airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by
    the 9/11 planners.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  15. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 3, 9:44 pm, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > AEF wrote:
    >
    > > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    > > wrote:
    > > > [snip]
    > > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    > > > defending.

    >
    > > I'll try one more stab at it.

    >
    > > Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a
    > > hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD
    > > NOT be flown into a building or similar.

    >
    > Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to apply such probability
    > theories in a situation involving psychotic, suicidal/homicidal criminals intent
    > upon commiting the gravest of crimes/sins?
    >
    > > Since the outcome of fighting
    > > them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    > > prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    > > the hijackers.

    >
    > Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    > again to go commit their heinous acts.
    >
    > M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?
    >
    > > People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will
    > > cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect?

    >
    > WTF does that have to do with anything?
    >
    > > Defending what? Vigilante-ism?

    >
    > Duty, courage and honor. Look 'em up if you need to.
    >
    > They are used to defend freedom, liberty and the innocent.
    >
    > I'll expend no further effort to this pursuit. I'd do better trying to describe
    > color to someone who was born blind.
    >
    > --
    > David J Dachtera

    [...]

    PLONK!


  16. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 4, 8:00 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote:
    >
    > > AEF wrote:

    > [snip]
    >
    > >> Since the outcome of fighting
    > >> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    > >> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    > >> the hijackers.

    >
    > > Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    > > again to go commit their heinous acts.

    >
    > > M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?

    >
    > Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct.
    >
    > Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and
    > occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and
    > hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American
    > overboard.
    >
    > Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use
    > airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles.
    >
    > HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound
    > airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by
    > the 9/11 planners.


    Not the same. If you're just going to kill everyone on the plane, why
    bother with the hijacking? Why not just blow yourself up on the plane?

    The 9/11 events were unprecedented so there was no reason for anyone
    on those planes to think anything like that was going to happen.

    Surely they would fight back if they knew such a thing would happen to
    them, as happened on the flight that crashed in PA. So basically
    you're just accusing them of insufficient hindsight -- an inability to
    read minds and predict the future with near unquestionable accuracy.
    Since you have this wonderful ability I suggest that you try it out
    with gambling.

    I still like your other points in this thread.

    >
    > --
    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA
    >

    [... same old sig omitted ...]

    AEF


  17. Re: July the 4th

    On 08/04/07 13:05, AEF wrote:
    > On Aug 4, 8:00 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    >> On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote:
    >>
    >>> AEF wrote:

    >> [snip]
    >>
    >>>> Since the outcome of fighting
    >>>> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    >>>> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    >>>> the hijackers.
    >>> Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    >>> again to go commit their heinous acts.
    >>> M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?

    >> Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct.
    >>
    >> Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and
    >> occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and
    >> hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American
    >> overboard.
    >>
    >> Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use
    >> airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles.
    >>
    >> HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound
    >> airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by
    >> the 9/11 planners.

    >
    > Not the same. If you're just going to kill everyone on the plane, why
    > bother with the hijacking? Why not just blow yourself up on the plane?


    Because you can do more damage by killing yourself and the
    passengers while flying the "guided missile" into a big, fat,
    populated, important target.

    > The 9/11 events were unprecedented so there was no reason for anyone
    > on those planes to think anything like that was going to happen.
    >
    > Surely they would fight back if they knew such a thing would happen to
    > them, as happened on the flight that crashed in PA. So basically
    > you're just accusing them of insufficient hindsight -- an inability to
    > read minds and predict the future with near unquestionable accuracy.
    > Since you have this wonderful ability I suggest that you try it out
    > with gambling.


    Your point is, "They aren't going to kill (most of*) us, so we'll
    just sit back and allow ourselves to be hijacked and maybe only a
    few of us killed/raped/slashed/etc".

    What a fscking ... well, I can't say that word in a public forum.

    * Google for /Leon Klinghoffer/.

    > I still like your other points in this thread.
    >
    >> --
    >> Ron Johnson, Jr.
    >> Jefferson LA USA
    >>

    > [... same old sig omitted ...]
    >
    > AEF
    >



    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  18. Re: July the 4th

    On Aug 4, 2:30 pm, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 08/04/07 13:05, AEF wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Aug 4, 8:00 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
    > >> On 08/03/07 20:44, David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > >>> AEF wrote:
    > >> [snip]

    >
    > >>>> Since the outcome of fighting
    > >>>> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    > >>>> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    > >>>> the hijackers.
    > >>> Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    > >>> again to go commit their heinous acts.
    > >>> M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?
    > >> Actually, AEF is *slightly* correct.

    >
    > >> Yes, Islamists had been individually blowing themselves up, and
    > >> occasionally (trying to or succeeding in) blowing airplanes and
    > >> hijacking planes and ships, pushing the occasional Jewish-American
    > >> overboard.

    >
    > >> Before 9/11, though, they had not yet succeeded in trying to use
    > >> airplanes as Ohka-like manned cruise missiles.

    >
    > >> HOWEVER!!!! Ramzi Yousef and Al-Qaeda planned to bomb 11 US-bound
    > >> airliners in 1995. Lessons learned in that failed plot were used by
    > >> the 9/11 planners.

    >
    > > Not the same. If you're just going to kill everyone on the plane, why
    > > bother with the hijacking? Why not just blow yourself up on the plane?

    >
    > Because you can do more damage by killing yourself and the
    > passengers while flying the "guided missile" into a big, fat,
    > populated, important target.
    >
    > > The 9/11 events were unprecedented so there was no reason for anyone
    > > on those planes to think anything like that was going to happen.

    >
    > > Surely they would fight back if they knew such a thing would happen to
    > > them, as happened on the flight that crashed in PA. So basically
    > > you're just accusing them of insufficient hindsight -- an inability to
    > > read minds and predict the future with near unquestionable accuracy.
    > > Since you have this wonderful ability I suggest that you try it out
    > > with gambling.

    >
    > Your point is, "They aren't going to kill (most of*) us, so we'll
    > just sit back and allow ourselves to be hijacked and maybe only a
    > few of us killed/raped/slashed/etc".


    No, it's let's hope everyone makes it out alive instead of these
    crazies exploding one of these bombs and killing us all.

    Tell me: On previous hijackings how would your method have been
    helpful. I think on those previous hijackings it would have gotten
    everyone killed instead of a few.

    Hey, neither of us was on any of those 9/11 flights so I think it is
    very wrong to be so critical about what the passengers did or didn't
    do.

    BTW, this is the first I've ever heard anyone criticizing the 9/11
    passengers.

    \

    >
    > What a fscking ... well, I can't say that word in a public forum.


    PLONK!

    >
    > * Google for /Leon Klinghoffer/.


    So you're saying Leon should have fought back? What could he do? He
    was in a wheelchair for Chrissakes.

    [...]

    > Ron Johnson, Jr.
    > Jefferson LA USA
    >

    [...same old sig...]

    AEF


  19. Re: July the 4th

    On 08/04/07 15:10, AEF wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > PLONK!


    Well, since you plonked me, I guess there's no need to make a full
    reply.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  20. Re: July the 4th

    In article <46B3DA00.9BED3F39@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes:
    >AEF wrote:
    >>
    >> On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera
    >> wrote:
    >> > [snip]
    >> > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth
    >> > defending.

    >>
    >> I'll try one more stab at it.
    >>
    >> Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a
    >> hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD
    >> NOT be flown into a building or similar.

    >
    >Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to apply such probability
    >theories in a situation involving psychotic, suicidal/homicidal criminals intent
    >upon commiting the gravest of crimes/sins?
    >
    >> Since the outcome of fighting
    >> them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be
    >> prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack
    >> the hijackers.

    >
    >Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off
    >again to go commit their heinous acts.
    >

    History shows most airplane hijackings did not result in the death of all the
    passengers. If you were one of the few Israelis (or sometimes Americans) on
    a flight containing lots of other nationalities then you had more to fear since
    you might end up at the head of the list being threatened with being shot to
    demonstrate the seriousness of the hijackers demands. But otherwise you were
    probably in more danger after the plane landed ie if the plane was stormed
    in an attempt to rescue you.
    Upto 9/11 plane hijackers didn't tend to be suicidal - just willing to die if
    necessary.
    Although the US government had had reports in the late 90s about the
    possibility of planes being crashed into buildings the public had no such
    knowledge.


    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University




    >M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself?
    >
    >> People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will
    >> cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect?

    >
    >WTF does that have to do with anything?
    >
    >> Defending what? Vigilante-ism?

    >
    >Duty, courage and honor. Look 'em up if you need to.
    >
    >They are used to defend freedom, liberty and the innocent.
    >
    >I'll expend no further effort to this pursuit. I'd do better trying to describe
    >color to someone who was born blind.
    >
    >--
    >David J Dachtera
    >dba DJE Systems
    >http://www.djesys.com/
    >
    >Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
    >http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/
    >
    >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
    >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
    >
    >Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
    >http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/
    >
    >Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
    >http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/


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