Re: July the 4th - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: July the 4th - VMS ; In article , JF Mezei writes: > > It failed because the USA military insisted it remain 100% in charge > wherever it operates. If the US Military was 100% in charge there wouldn't be anyone else running around Iraq ...

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Thread: Re: July the 4th

  1. Re: July the 4th

    In article , JF Mezei writes:
    >
    > It failed because the USA military insisted it remain 100% in charge
    > wherever it operates.


    If the US Military was 100% in charge there wouldn't be anyone else
    running around Iraq with guns. There has never been enough troops
    commited to make that so and I doubt there ever will be.


  2. Re: July the 4th

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article , JF Mezei writes:
    >>
    >> It failed because the USA military insisted it remain 100% in charge
    >> wherever it operates.

    >
    > If the US Military was 100% in charge there wouldn't be anyone else
    > running around Iraq with guns. There has never been enough troops
    > commited to make that so and I doubt there ever will be.


    Actually, there are and have been more than enough troops to do the job.
    What is lacking is permission.

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  3. Re: July the 4th

    On Jul 24, 12:59 pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    > > If the US Military was 100% in charge there wouldn't be anyone else
    > > running around Iraq with guns. There has never been enough troops
    > > commited to make that so and I doubt there ever will be.

    >
    > The USA domestic political issues are more or less irrelevant here.
    > Whether they have enough resources on the ground in Iraq or not is not
    > the issue. The issue is that the USA military is the one that makes the
    > decisions in Iraq. It is USA military policy that USA military answers
    > to nobody but itself when abroad. (aka: USA would not send troups on a
    > mission that was not lead by an american).


    What does this have to do with that? Anyway, the alternative to us
    being "in charge" is all-out civil war. As it is they're blowing up
    funerals!!! How low can you go?

    > It was the USA military that decided to change the iraqi currency (to
    > make hussein and sons poor), it was the USA military that decided which
    > books could and could not be used at schools, and which teachers could
    > and could not teach, which person could and could not run for election
    > etc. The decision to allow US oil firms to buy into Iraqi oil fields
    > didn't come from Iraqis.


    Sounds like most of this would be an improvement if true.

    > Now, put yourself into Iraqi shoes. The USA are factually inept at
    > keeping peace in Iraq, inept at rebuilding, and very good are corruption
    > and excesses when it comes to feeding Haliburton and Blackwater, and the
    > USA military remains in power, with a puppet government in Iraq that is
    > there to put an Iraqi face to US decisions that benefit USA corporations
    > instead of benefiting iraqis.


    Depends if you were on Saddam's good side or not. Tough choice for
    many.

    > You don't make peace with machine guns. You make peace by meeting with
    > the people who oppose you and include them in the rebuilding process.
    > But the USA military (unexpectedly) only thinks about military solutions.


    Hmmm. I don't think this works when they're shooting at you. Remember
    the beheadings?

    > Under Hussein, if you were law abiding and didn't openly criticise him,
    > you were safe. There was a functioning government, well defined election


    Ha ha ha ha ha! You don't recall his sons randomly shooting people who
    happened to be within range? You don't remember the slaughter of
    Shiites after the first Iraq war? You're speaking total nonsense.

    > process and constitution that may have needed just a bit of tweaking to
    > ensure no elected leader becomes a lifelong dictator. It didn't need


    He WAS lifelong dictator!!! He always got 99% of the vote? Do you
    seriously believe that free people voted this way?

    > THAT much tweaking to get it to an acceptable level of respect for human
    > rights and proper democracy. And there was a (fragile) balance between


    Oh, it just gets better and better. Tweaking a brutal dictatorship to
    achieve proper democracy? Please attach a breathalyzer to your
    computer.

    > the various sects. During the 1990s, peace between Hussein and the Kurds
    > was achieved by granting the Kurds greater autonomy and ensuring that
    > the military in the kurd region was staffed and lead by kurds.


    He killed thousands of them with chemical weapons!!!

    >
    > Why did the USA insist on zapping the currency, military and police,
    > banking system and constitution and starting from scratch ?


    What? Start with a Saddam constitution? He actually had a constitution
    worth more than the paper it was written on?

    >
    > The problem is that the very mentality that caused those catastrophic
    > mistakes is still very much in place because the military is still very
    > much in control.


    This is total nonsense. Yes, this is a disaster. Yes the US screwed
    up, but not as much as you have with your analysis!

    > What is neededd is for the USA to relegate troups to simple policing and
    > not interfere with the government AT ALL, and let he UN and he Arab
    > League help/guide the government. But that would require the USA
    > military to take orders from the Iraqi government which is something the
    > USA military is genetically incapable of doing. So as a result, the
    > deaths, carnage an civil war continue.


    I'm done. Others have commented on this.

    AEF


  4. Re: July the 4th

    AEF wrote:
    > What does this have to do with that? Anyway, the alternative to us
    > being "in charge" is all-out civil war. As it is they're blowing up
    > funerals!!! How low can you go?


    Iraq is in a civil war. And the USA is incapable of stopping it with all
    the troups, surges and fancy equipment it has. The USA must learn that
    the solution is NOT a military solution. The USA military's continued
    insistance on running the show is what motivates insergents to ensure
    the USA fails.

    It is also a sign that the USA selected government in Iraq not respected
    by the iraqis because it is seen as a puppet of the USA military instead
    of a truly representative government.

    Americans senators are complaining about the inability of the very
    government they put in power.

    > Depends if you were on Saddam's good side or not. Tough choice for
    > many.


    It was a clear choice, no randomness about it. Iraq was safe place to
    live as long as you kept your mouth shut on political issues. Now, they
    may have freedom to speak out, but they don't have electricity and can't
    safely go shopping without fearing being killed by some random bomb or
    shooting.

    And remember that there are now millions of Iraqis who have fled the USA
    occupied Iraq and are now refugees in neighbouring countries.

    > Hmmm. I don't think this works when they're shooting at you. Remember
    > the beheadings?


    Hussein and sons were brutal. (understatement). There is no debate about
    that. However, there is debate on whether the level of brutality was as
    high as in the 1990s. Most UN reports agreed that the level of brutality
    had gone down during the 1990s. Far from perfect, but better than the
    current conditions.


    > Ha ha ha ha ha! You don't recall his sons randomly shooting people who
    > happened to be within range? You don't remember the slaughter of
    > Shiites after the first Iraq war? You're speaking total nonsense.



    First item: please show real proof of this. If it is just saying of USA
    politicians, it is not some proof. His sons were brutal. They cut off
    ears of olympic athletes who didn't win medals. But they weren't "random".

    > He WAS lifelong dictator!!! He always got 99% of the vote? Do you
    > seriously believe that free people voted this way?


    You need to take a "big picture" perspective. There was a working
    election process, voter registration etc. Hussein simply decided he had
    to approve all candidates (something which the USA military still does)
    and he only approved candidates that were in the Baht party (whereas the
    USA Military prevents any former bathists from getting jobs).

    There were many instances where there were 2 candidates for a district,
    and Hussein just made sure both would end up being from his party and
    supporting him. But voters did have choices for the local candidates.


    The proper procedure would have been to focus solely on Hussein, oust
    him, and use the existing constitution and parliament to run elections
    where anyone could run. You would then let that newly elected parliament
    decide whether currency, constitution, banking ,army etc had to be let
    go or not.

    Rumsfeld was not interested in that. He was interested in "Shock and
    Awe" (aka: fancy fireworks to show how powerful the USA's bombs were).


    > Oh, it just gets better and better. Tweaking a brutal dictatorship to
    > achieve proper democracy? Please attach a breathalyzer to your
    > computer.


    This from an american whose dictator has suspended habeas corpus,
    performed torture, broken geneva convention and performed other war
    crimes. The USA is in no position anymore to discuss human rights. And
    it won't be enough to close Gantanamo and provide reparations to
    kidnapped victims of Gantanamo, those responsible for it will have to be
    tried for what they did. Otherwise the world will not recognise that the
    USA has fixed this horrible lapse in human rights and break in the USA
    ratified commitments to the UN charter of human rights.

    And I should remind you that the USA regime kidnapped a 15 year old
    canadian on a sidewalk in the middle east and he is still being kept
    hostage at Gantanamo without charge. How come americans tolerate such
    an atrocity ?


    > He killed thousands of them with chemical weapons!!!


    Yep. Hussein was no saint. However, these atrocities happened in the
    early 1980s, with full knowledge of Rumsfeld who sold Hussein the
    chemicals. And in terms of the Shiite killings, it was Hussein
    retaliating agianst a CIA instilled uprising after Gulf War V1.0.

    > What? Start with a Saddam constitution? He actually had a constitution
    > worth more than the paper it was written on?


    Yes. Constitution was modified to allow him to stay in power. But it was
    also modified to give the Kurds greater independance, control over their
    military etc. It was not worthless. And it had kept a fragile balance
    for decades, a balance that was totally ruined by the USA depsite
    warnings by the former allies whom the USA discredited.

    When you look at Afghanistan, they were able to install a CIA supported
    government (Karzai is a former CIA informant) very quickly because they
    re-used the old constitution to give them a starting point and a
    political means to modify it democratically). But this was a UN process,
    and Rumsfeld refused to allow the UN do anything in Iraq because he
    wanted full credit from rebuilding the country from scratch.


  5. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/24/07 23:25, JF Mezei wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > You need to take a "big picture" perspective. There was a working


    "big picture" is the 2nd to last refuge of the incompetent.

    [snip]
    >
    > This from an american whose dictator has suspended habeas corpus,
    > performed torture, broken geneva convention and performed other war
    > crimes.


    Dictator? You're inanity is drifting you into Boob territory.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  6. Re: July the 4th

    In article <5gn0quF3hi5b4U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >
    > Actually, there are and have been more than enough troops to do the job.
    > What is lacking is permission.


    While I agree politics from both the White House and the Iraqi
    government habve interfered with the troops ability to carry out the
    mission, you cannot suppress 26 million armed people with 120,000
    soldiers.


  7. Re: July the 4th

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article <5gn0quF3hi5b4U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>
    >> Actually, there are and have been more than enough troops to do the job.
    >> What is lacking is permission.

    >
    > While I agree politics from both the White House and the Iraqi
    > government habve interfered with the troops ability to carry out the
    > mission, you cannot suppress 26 million armed people with 120,000
    > soldiers.


    You don't havr to supress 26 million people. Thinking that every simgle
    man, woman and child in Iraq is a threat is patently absurd. All that
    needed to be done was to eliminate the means to resist. That means total
    disarmament. Not letting some people keep their guns so they can celebrate.
    (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen
    Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success
    of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think
    they are civilized!!) And the the car bombs are stopped by taking away
    their cars. They have some of the biggest parking lots in the world.
    Great place to store them until they can be civilized. Thirdly, you close
    the borders. No one in or out without very thorough searching. (And
    before you say they couldn't close the border, trust me, landmines do a
    very good job of closing borders. You might be amazed at what 120,000 of
    the best trained and most motivated soldiers in the world can do. Don't
    confuse our Army with what the Russians sent to Afghanistan in the past.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  8. Re: July the 4th

    In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes:
    >
    > When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    > was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    > off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >
    > Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?


    Yep.


  9. Re: July the 4th

    In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>,
    Malcolm Dunnett writes:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    >> (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen
    >> Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success
    >> of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think
    >> they are civilized!!)

    >
    > When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    > was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    > off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >
    > Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?


    Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also
    famous for this. I leave it to you to decide if they qualify as being
    civilized or not but tighter border controls here would solve a lot of
    this problem, too. At least the Hispanics haven't taken to celebrating
    during the day and shooting Americans at night. (Well, at least not yet.)
    And, once again, I ask someone to explain to me why none of these idiots
    has ever given consideration to where the bullets come down. Or are we
    supposed to believe they go into orbit? Maybe there are not as many
    drive-by shootings as people think, it's just the fall-out from a wedding
    or sports win!!

    >
    >> before you say they couldn't close the border, trust me, landmines do a
    >> very good job of closing borders.

    >
    > And create a horrible mess of collateral damage to the local citizenry
    > and their livestock for years after the initial conflict is over.


    Why? Unlike our adversaries, even though we do not currently use land
    mines (and haven't for as long as I can remember) we do have instructions
    for using landmines which included mapping them so that they can be removed
    when no longer needed. It is only our adveraries who indiscriminately
    strew them in areas where they are most likely to be encountered by civilians.
    All this just goes to show how little people actually know about the US
    Army. We are not and do not do things like other countries. But then,
    if you lookeda t history, you would also rea;ize that we have never
    fought an opponent who abided by the Geneva or Hague accords. And yet
    the world is quick to call us "War Criminals". We, to this day, steadfastly
    refuse to attack a Mosque in Iraq even after watching our attackers run
    into one running out every couple of minutes to shoot at us again and then
    once again retreat into the Mosque. We are the only Army in the world who
    is expected to fight with one hand tied behind our backs.

    > Planting landmines could easily be seen as a terrorist activity because
    > of the way they indiscriminately kill without any prior threat assessment.


    Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that
    say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me.
    Seems like perfectly adequate warning.

    >
    >>You might be amazed at what 120,000 of
    >> the best trained and most motivated soldiers in the world can do. Don't
    >> confuse our Army with what the Russians sent to Afghanistan in the past.

    >
    > It's still the Iraqui's country,


    While this is a matter of opinion, after loosing a war....

    > ultimately it's up to them to find
    > a solution that works for them.


    This is true.

    > Enough force probably could temporarily
    > pacify things,


    One would have hoped that the violence could have been stopped enough
    to allow the good people in Iraq (and thera quite a few) to actually
    have a say in the future of their country and the future of their
    descendants.

    > but unless you plan to have the US Army maintain martial
    > law in Iraq forever it's not a permanent solution.


    Did we maintain martial law in Germany forever? How about Japan?

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  10. Re: July the 4th

    Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    >> (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen
    >> Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success
    >> of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think
    >> they are civilized!!)

    >
    >
    > When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    > was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    > off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >
    > Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?
    >


    Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every
    once in a while it makes one of them dead!

    Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of
    Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to
    contribute to the improvement of the race!





  11. Re: July the 4th

    In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >
    > Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also
    > famous for this.


    Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded
    only by your willingness to display stupidity in public.


  12. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/26/07 15:54, Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also
    >> famous for this.

    >
    > Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded
    > only by your willingness to display stupidity in public.


    *IF* it a fact that Cubans in Miami like to shoot guns in the air on
    New Years Eve, how is that racist?

    It is a *fact* that it used to be very popular among some
    African-Americans in New Orleans. Are you also going to call me racist?

    And I sure that some places where "white people" like to shoot guns
    instead of firing off firecrackers.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  13. Re: July the 4th

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes:
    >>
    >> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    >> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    >> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >>
    >> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?

    >
    > Yep.


    Bull crap. Those are not Americans, they're illegal immigrants from
    yet another third world country. Another group who would rather come
    here for a free handout than fight or work to improve their own country.

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  14. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/26/07 17:09, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article ,
    > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    >> In article <46a8ce2b$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes:
    >>> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    >>> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    >>> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >>>
    >>> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?

    >> Yep.

    >
    > Bull crap. Those are not Americans, they're illegal immigrants from
    > yet another third world country. Another group who would rather come
    > here for a free handout than fight or work to improve their own country.


    Cuban immigrants, even ones that come by boat, are all(?) legal
    (special dispensation because politicians want to win the Florida
    vote). You don't float 100 miles across the ocean just to get Medicare.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  15. Re: July the 4th

    In article <2B0Uc409OCvX@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>
    >> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also
    >> famous for this.

    >
    > Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded
    > only by your willingness to display stupidity in public.


    Facts are not racial bigotry. It has been displayed on television more
    times than I can recall that this is a decidely Hispanic trait in the US.
    I really find it interesting that if I were to fire a gun where I live
    it would result in my arrest within minutes and yet these displays are
    frewquently shown onthe news for everyone to see and this behavior is
    totally accepted and anyone who dares to speak out against it is a bigot.
    Go figure.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  16. Re: July the 4th

    In article <%v8qi.7849$gZ1.4670@newsfe21.lga>,
    Ron Johnson writes:
    > On 07/26/07 15:54, Bob Koehler wrote:
    >> In article <5gs4leF3hdr02U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>> Actually, I would guess it's Hispanics as the Cubans in Miami are also
    >>> famous for this.

    >>
    >> Your willingness to display racial bigotry in writing is exceeded
    >> only by your willingness to display stupidity in public.

    >
    > *IF* it a fact that Cubans in Miami like to shoot guns in the air on
    > New Years Eve, how is that racist?


    I think you missed the point. He is calling me a racist for pointing out
    the fact that this seems to be a Hispanic cultural thing. Maybe they can't
    afford fireworks. Bullets at the local sporting goods store are a lot
    cheaper.

    >
    > It is a *fact* that it used to be very popular among some
    > African-Americans in New Orleans. Are you also going to call me racist?
    >
    > And I sure that some places where "white people" like to shoot guns
    > instead of firing off firecrackers.


    I know of no "white people" as "white people" are currently defined who
    would resort to gunfire in lieu of fireworks. Heck. people aroud here
    who can't afford "a pot to piss in" can sure come up with the money for
    fireworks come 4th of July. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  17. Re: July the 4th

    In article <46A8F3B5.3000806@comcast.net>,
    "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    > Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
    >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>
    >>> (If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen
    >>> Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success
    >>> of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think
    >>> they are civilized!!)

    >>
    >>
    >> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    >> was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    >> off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >>
    >> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?
    >>

    >
    > Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every
    > once in a while it makes one of them dead!
    >
    > Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of
    > Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to
    > contribute to the improvement of the race!


    My father was a Philadelphian and I spent a lot of time there as a kid
    running those streets (before drugs and drug gangs) and I sure done't
    remember "Philadelphians" using firearms instead of fireworks. Or do
    you mean in modern times and primarily among the illegals who brought
    the practice with them fromthe third world?

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  18. Re: July the 4th

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article <46A8F3B5.3000806@comcast.net>,
    > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >
    >>Malcolm Dunnett wrote:
    >>
    >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>(If you watched the news on ABC last night you would have once again seen
    >>>>Iraqis shooting rifles into the air. This time celebrating the success
    >>>>of their National Soccer Team. And still there are people here who think
    >>>>they are civilized!!)
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> When I was in Palm Springs at New Years a couple of years ago there
    >>>was lots of chatter in the local media asking the residents to not fire
    >>>off their guns into the air to celebrate the new year.
    >>>
    >>> Does that make Americans (or at least Californians) uncivilized?
    >>>

    >>
    >>Philadelphians do it too! And, yes, it makes them uncivilized. Every
    >>once in a while it makes one of them dead!
    >>
    >>Think of it as evolution in action! And avoid the streets of
    >>Philadelphia on New Years Eve!! Unless, of course, you wish to
    >>contribute to the improvement of the race!

    >
    >
    > My father was a Philadelphian and I spent a lot of time there as a kid
    > running those streets (before drugs and drug gangs) and I sure done't
    > remember "Philadelphians" using firearms instead of fireworks. Or do
    > you mean in modern times and primarily among the illegals who brought
    > the practice with them fromthe third world?
    >
    > bill
    >


    I'm referring to reports published in the Philadelphia Inquirer since 1999.


  19. Re: July the 4th

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that
    > say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me.
    > Seems like perfectly adequate warning.



    In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of landmines,
    and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued
    use of landmines ?

  20. Re: July the 4th

    On 07/26/07 21:41, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> Excuse me? 10 foot chainlink fence. Signs in multiple languages that
    >> say "land mines on other side of fence". Hardly seems terrorist to me.
    >> Seems like perfectly adequate warning.

    >
    >
    > In case you had not heard, there is a worldwide ban on use of landmines,
    > and the USA refused to sign it. Why does the USA insist on continued
    > use of landmines ?


    Because they're damned effective at perimeter defense, and if the US
    military is ever in a conflict where it thinks it needs them, it
    wants to be able to use them.

    More importantly, maybe, is that the M18A1 Claymore Antipersonnel
    Mine when in tripwire (officially: Victim Initiated Detonation) mode
    is considered to be a land mine. But claymores are too valuable as
    force multipliers and ambush booby traps.

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

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