On Jul 16, 8:51 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <1184193800.548881.264...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups. com>, AEF writes:
> >On Jul 11, 11:50 am, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 07/11/07 07:42, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> >> > In article <1184115111.488306.300...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.c om>,
> >> > Doug Phillips writes:
> >> >> On Jul 10, 5:55 pm, Dirk Munk wrote:
> >> >>> JF Mezei wrote:
> >> >>>> Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> >>>>> When Al Qaeda bombs a marketplace in Iraq, how is that "just"
> >> >>>>> resistance by another name?
> >> [snip]

> >[...]
> >> > If the military was allowed to do what the military is supposed to do
> >> > the war would have ended within months of the original invasion. When
> >> > you allow your enemy to keep his weapons and ammunition because his
> >> > "culture" requires him to celebrate weddings bu shooting randomly into
> >> > the air how do you stop the fighting?

> >> Hearts and minds, Bill. Hearts and minds.

> >> The big problem is that big armies (especially, AFAICT, the US
> >> military) are not designed for "destroy the enemy without destroying
> >> the populous".

> >> Not that I think such a task is possible unless the civilian
> >> population really wants it to happen.

> >Let's take a look at two success stories: Germany and Japan. We beat
> >them in a war. We bombed Germany. We dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan.
> >Germany was run by Nazis and now it's a democracy with a large
> >economy. Japan was under an emperor and is now a democracy with a
> >large economy. Both were guilty of unspeakable cruelties and mass
> >murder. And now we're all chums, relatively speaking.

> Germany was a democracy before Hitler came to power. Hitler and the Nazi party
> initially came to power through democratic elections.
> The first Japanese General Election took place on July 1st 1890.
> The electorate at that time being limited to men who paid more than a certain
> amount of tax. This was gradually relaxed and all men over the age of 25 could
> vote in elections from 1925 onwards see
> http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/democracy.html
> (There was no female suffrage but that was hardly unusual for pre-war
> democracies).
> Hence for both Germany and Japan the rebuilding of Democracy after the war was
> just tinkering with a system which had existed in the years immediately prior
> to the war and which had been derailed by the economic and political pressures
> of the 1930s.

But during the war there was no such democracy to tinker with. You
actually had to bring it back, which seems quite non-trivial to me.
And if we fought the Axis the way we fight in Iraq, well, things would
be different.

So I guess what you're saying is the fact that there were recent
democracies in these countries before the war made it easier to make
them democracies after the war. Fine, but we had to decisively win the
war first, of course, which is a lot more than just "tinkering".

> David Webb