CVS on VMS - VMS

This is a discussion on CVS on VMS - VMS ; In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > In article , > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> >> SVN is the standard today. > > what's the definition of "standard" in this case ? Something none of the rest of us is ...

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Thread: CVS on VMS

  1. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
    > In article <48421171$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
    > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>
    >> SVN is the standard today.

    >
    > what's the definition of "standard" in this case ?


    Something none of the rest of us is using.

    Maybe I'll google it to see what the kiddies are up to.


  2. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    >> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>

    >> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >> already sitting somewhere for free.

    >
    > Sure.
    >
    > But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    > what I was talking about.


    Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.


  3. Re: CVS on VMS

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>
    >>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>> already sitting somewhere for free.

    >> Sure.
    >>
    >> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >> what I was talking about.

    >
    > Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.


    I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    Arne

  4. Re: CVS on VMS

    IanMiller wrote:
    > On 3 Jun, 01:17, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>> already sitting somewhere for free.

    >> Sure.
    >>
    >> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >> what I was talking about.

    >
    > Would a web front end for CMS be more popular than the windows client
    > for CMS?


    I don't know if more.

    But most modern source control systems do come with web interfaces,
    so there must be some demand.

    Arne

  5. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >Bob Koehler wrote:
    >> In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>>
    >>>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>>> already sitting somewhere for free.
    >>> Sure.
    >>>
    >>> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >>> what I was talking about.

    >>
    >> Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.

    >
    >I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.


    How would you reserve a file and where would it go?

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  6. Re: CVS on VMS

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>>>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>>>> already sitting somewhere for free.
    >>>> Sure.
    >>>>
    >>>> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >>>> what I was talking about.
    >>> Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.

    >> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    >
    > How would you reserve a file and where would it go?
    >


    About ten years ago, I was using CMS without a web interface. It worked
    quite well. I had to type commands instead of clicking on things but,
    as that was the normal way of doing things in those days, I thought
    nothing of it!

  7. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article <1+VjYYC8ps1b@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    >In article <48467457$0$25058$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    >> In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:

    >
    >>>I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    >>
    >> How would you reserve a file and where would it go?

    >
    > If your web client can download files, then presumably it could go
    > to temporary storage on the web server, then be presented as a
    > download.
    >
    > More usefull might be if the web server and your client has access
    > to a file service so that a directory tree might be maintained.
    >
    > And a lot of web clients break the convention that a web server
    > should not be allowed to write to the client's file system, because
    > there are so many examples like this where it would be usefull.


    If I'm working on VMS, why would I need a web interface to reserve files
    to my VMS box? Not to mention that there really isn't any great browser
    available for VMS. CSWB is old and dated. You'd need cookie to preserve
    the context of the generation you are using and myriad other CMS features.

    If I have indexed files in the CMS repository, how will the web interface
    preserve them?

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  8. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >> In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>> In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>>>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>>>>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>>>>> already sitting somewhere for free.
    >>>>> Sure.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >>>>> what I was talking about.
    >>>> Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.
    >>> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    >>
    >> How would you reserve a file and where would it go?
    >>

    >
    >About ten years ago, I was using CMS without a web interface. It worked
    >quite well. I had to type commands instead of clicking on things but,
    >as that was the normal way of doing things in those days, I thought
    >nothing of it!


    I still don't. I've had to use CVS too. Cryptic, error prone, files
    easily corrupted, collisions because many people can 'reserve' source,
    and you still needed to escape to the command shell and make use of a
    shell commands to do things that were inherent in CMS. I feel that a
    code maintenance system should be, more or less, self-contained. CMS
    isn't perfect but it's far easier to use to manage a code project than
    what I'd experienced with CVS.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  9. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article <48467457$0$25058$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    > In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:


    >>I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    >
    > How would you reserve a file and where would it go?


    If your web client can download files, then presumably it could go
    to temporary storage on the web server, then be presented as a
    download.

    More usefull might be if the web server and your client has access
    to a file service so that a directory tree might be maintained.

    And a lot of web clients break the convention that a web server
    should not be allowed to write to the client's file system, because
    there are so many examples like this where it would be usefull.


  10. Re: CVS on VMS

    R.A.Omond wrote:

    > marlow.andrew@googlemail.com wrote:
    > > [...snip...]
    > > The reason I ask is that I am in an environment that uses VMS for
    > > *hysterical* reasons.

    >
    > Not sure if that's an intentional typo ;-)


    Yes it was. My feeble attempt at homour.

    >
    > Andrew, you at Bloomberg or Reuters ? Your environment sounds
    > rather familiar ...


    Reuters. And of course I don't speak for them, I only work there.

  11. Re: CVS on VMS

    Bob Koehler wrote:

    > You will have the same problem between VMS and UNIX that we had
    > between Windows and UNIX - one is not case sensitive, the other is,
    > unless you set up and enable case sentivity as available in the
    > latest releases of VMS.


    Well this is a problem I hadn't thought enough about, I must admit. In
    Windoze there is not much of a problem because Windoze developers are
    more used to using mixed case now and having to get it right, thanks
    to java development. but I can see that SINCE VMS PEOPLE TEND TO TALK
    IN BLOCK CAPITALS ALL THE TIME they may force this on people that
    check the code out on a Unix system.

    >
    > On Windows vs. UNIX, we had a perfectly good Xy and a bad xy both
    > stored in a UNIX CVS server accessed for a cross compiler that ran
    > on Windows. When we updated we'd get Xy and then xy, and Windows
    > would store the later over Xy. When we explicitly pulled Xy from
    > the server via CVS it would look perfectly good, and forcing it to be
    > updated would not solve the problem of having a bad one when we got
    > done with an update. We had to get into the server and dig around
    > the repository to find and eliminate the bad xy.


  12. Re: CVS on VMS

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >>> In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>>> In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>>>>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>>>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>>>>>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>>>>>> already sitting somewhere for free.
    >>>>>> Sure.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >>>>>> what I was talking about.
    >>>>> Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.
    >>>> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.
    >>> How would you reserve a file and where would it go?
    >>>

    >> About ten years ago, I was using CMS without a web interface. It worked
    >> quite well. I had to type commands instead of clicking on things but,
    >> as that was the normal way of doing things in those days, I thought
    >> nothing of it!

    >
    > I still don't. I've had to use CVS too. Cryptic, error prone, files
    > easily corrupted, collisions because many people can 'reserve' source,
    > and you still needed to escape to the command shell and make use of a
    > shell commands to do things that were inherent in CMS. I feel that a
    > code maintenance system should be, more or less, self-contained. CMS
    > isn't perfect but it's far easier to use to manage a code project than
    > what I'd experienced with CVS.
    >


    I use jCVSII on VMS to check code in and out of the cURL project from
    their servers in Sweden. Since I'm usually the only one working on VMS
    specific stuff, I don't run into clashes. I have had to drop back to
    the "command line" (a popup box in the java app) to do commands not
    supported by the pointy-clickity thingy. jCVS has problems, and I
    wouldn't recommend it, but since I only use it a couple of times a year
    I can cope.

    I haven't fired up the NetBeans IDE on the Mac to do VMS devel, but I
    understand it interfaces with CMS. Not really a web interface, per se,
    but it is a GUI based IDE for VMS development. Since I haven't used
    NetBeans extensively yet, I'll can only say that the demo I did at
    Bootcamp last year was pretty impressive.

  13. Re: CVS on VMS

    On Jun 4, 5:52 pm, marlow.and...@googlemail.com wrote:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    > > You will have the same problem between VMS and UNIX that we had
    > > between Windows and UNIX - one is not case sensitive, the other is,
    > > unless you set up and enable case sentivity as available in the
    > > latest releases of VMS.

    >
    > Well this is a problem I hadn't thought enough about, I must admit. In
    > Windoze there is not much of a problem because Windoze developers are
    > more used to using mixed case now and having to get it right, thanks
    > to java development. but I can see that SINCE VMS PEOPLE TEND TO TALK
    > IN BLOCK CAPITALS ALL THE TIME they may force this on people that
    > check the code out on a Unix system.


    This is actually a general misrepresentation of "VMS People". Were not
    UPPER CASE fundamentalists, but rather CaSe InSensitive pragmatists.
    As can easily be seen in our postings to this newsgroup. We actually
    greatly prefer mixed case written discussions and also in programming,
    we will use mixed case in our code. We just realize it is very
    practical, and more human oriented, forgiving, robust and maintainable
    programming style when the computing system doesn't interpret
    different meanings from Identifier, identifier, IDENTifier and
    IDENTIFIER.

    With the possible exception of increasing encryption key randomness,
    the use of case-sensitive identifiers and filenames only provides an
    additional mode of error and confusion to a profession already having
    enough potential sources of error.

    Cheers!

    Keith CayemBerg

    (Public Service for Case Sensitive Fundamentalists: the person signing
    above is still the same person who otherwise signs his name with a
    lowercase "b" in his last name.)



  14. Re: CVS on VMS

    On 4 Jun, 17:41, Keith Cayemberg wrote:
    > > I can see that SINCE VMS PEOPLE TEND TO TALK
    > > IN BLOCK CAPITALS ALL THE TIME they may force this on people that
    > > check the code out on a Unix system.

    >
    > This is actually a general misrepresentation of "VMS People". Were not
    > UPPER CASE fundamentalists, but rather CaSe InSensitive pragmatists.
    > As can easily be seen in our postings to this newsgroup. We actually
    > greatly prefer mixed case written discussions and also in programming,
    > we will use mixed case in our code.


    Er, yes, sorry I meant to have a go at VMS, not the people using it.

    > We just realize it is very
    > practical, and more human oriented, forgiving, robust and maintainable
    > programming style when the computing system doesn't interpret
    > different meanings from Identifier, identifier, IDENTifier and
    > IDENTIFIER.


    Well, that's a matter of opinion. Before Unix I used to use PRIMOS and
    it takes the same view as VMS. I was happy with that view for years.
    But now I've become accustomed to the Unix way.

    >
    > With the possible exception of increasing encryption key randomness,
    > the use of case-sensitive identifiers and filenames only provides an
    > additional mode of error and confusion to a profession already having
    > enough potential sources of error.
    >
    > Cheers!
    >
    > Keith CayemBerg
    >
    > (Public Service for Case Sensitive Fundamentalists: the person signing
    > above is still the same person who otherwise signs his name with a
    > lowercase "b" in his last name.)



  15. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >
    > About ten years ago, I was using CMS without a web interface. It worked
    > quite well. I had to type commands instead of clicking on things but,
    > as that was the normal way of doing things in those days, I thought
    > nothing of it!


    There is a GUI for CMS. DEC developed it, deployed it, and dropped
    further work on it, but it's still in there.

    Uses X11, of course.


  16. Re: CVS on VMS

    In article <1d672e7c-3275-422f-9ad3-0a72a493520e@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, marlow.andrew@googlemail.com writes:

    > I can see that SINCE VMS PEOPLE TEND TO TALK
    > IN BLOCK CAPITALS ALL THE TIME


    Seems you're a few decades behind reality. My VAX 11/780 running
    VAX-11/VMS 1.6 in 1979 was the first system on which I could release
    the caps lock and still be understood.


  17. Re: CVS on VMS

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article <48448d7c$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>>>> In article <484212f7$0$90275$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>>>> If you need a web frontend then you need something newer.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> I've seen a lot of web front ends rolled around CVS, it's not
    >>>>> a major undertaking. A look around might find one of them
    >>>>> already sitting somewhere for free.
    >>>> Sure.
    >>>>
    >>>> But I don't think I have ever seen one for CMS, which is
    >>>> what I was talking about.
    >>> Actually, that was a typo. I meant to say CMS.

    >> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.

    >
    > How would you reserve a file and where would it go?


    The browser can get the file and save it.

    Arne

  18. Re: CVS on VMS

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <1+VjYYC8ps1b@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    >> In article <48467457$0$25058$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    >>> In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >>>> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.
    >>> How would you reserve a file and where would it go?

    >> If your web client can download files, then presumably it could go
    >> to temporary storage on the web server, then be presented as a
    >> download.
    >>
    >> More usefull might be if the web server and your client has access
    >> to a file service so that a directory tree might be maintained.
    >>
    >> And a lot of web clients break the convention that a web server
    >> should not be allowed to write to the client's file system, because
    >> there are so many examples like this where it would be usefull.

    >
    > If I'm working on VMS, why would I need a web interface to reserve files
    > to my VMS box? Not to mention that there really isn't any great browser
    > available for VMS. CSWB is old and dated. You'd need cookie to preserve
    > the context of the generation you are using and myriad other CMS features.


    It is most relevant if you edit files on another platform.

    > If I have indexed files in the CMS repository, how will the web interface
    > preserve them?


    It won't.

    But many people use source control for source.

    Arne

  19. Re: CVS on VMS

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > I still don't. I've had to use CVS too. Cryptic, error prone, files
    > easily corrupted, collisions because many people can 'reserve' source,


    On projects with many developers then the optimistic locking is
    more productive than the traditional pessimistic locking.

    But you can tell CVS to use traditional.

    Arne

  20. Re: CVS on VMS

    On Jun 5, 3:47 am, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > > In article <1+VjYYC8p...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > >> In article <48467457$0$25058$607ed...@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere..ORG writes:
    > >>> In article <4845f7de$0$90265$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    > >>>> I have never seen a web frontend for CMS.
    > >>> How would you reserve a file and where would it go?
    > >> If your web client can download files, then presumably it could go
    > >> to temporary storage on the web server, then be presented as a
    > >> download.

    >
    > >> More usefull might be if the web server and your client has access
    > >> to a file service so that a directory tree might be maintained.

    >
    > >> And a lot of web clients break the convention that a web server
    > >> should not be allowed to write to the client's file system, because
    > >> there are so many examples like this where it would be usefull.

    >
    > > If I'm working on VMS, why would I need a web interface to reserve files
    > > to my VMS box? Not to mention that there really isn't any great browser
    > > available for VMS. CSWB is old and dated. You'd need cookie to preserve
    > > the context of the generation you are using and myriad other CMS features.

    >
    > It is most relevant if you edit files on another platform.
    >
    > > If I have indexed files in the CMS repository, how will the web interface
    > > preserve them?

    >
    > It won't.
    >
    > But many people use source control for source.
    >
    > Arne


    In a "software configuration management system" source control is only
    one aspect of preserving the state of a tested, verified, and/or
    certified software release. Dependencies are not limited by textual
    code, but may include many other dependencies; such as third-party
    object files, unloaded database tables, and configuration files that
    may need their attributes (owner, protection, organization, indices)
    preserved. In the very rich OpenVMS (often mission-critical)
    environment it does make very good sense to choose a repository that
    can accurately preserve and coordinate as many SW configuration
    aspects as practically possible.

    Cheers!

    Keith Cayemberg

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