Encompass - Endeavour - VMS

This is a discussion on Encompass - Endeavour - VMS ; Today's the last day to vote on the great HP user group snogfest. To be honest I don't have strong feelings either way though I tend slightly against for the reason below; what I really wanted a vote on back ...

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Thread: Encompass - Endeavour

  1. Encompass - Endeavour

    Today's the last day to vote on the great HP user group snogfest. To
    be honest I don't have strong feelings either way though I tend
    slightly against for the reason below; what I really wanted a vote on
    back in the day was dumping the DECUS name in favor of Encompass, but
    the members were not given that option at the time.

    The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go). Some of the webinars have
    been useful too, as is access to the DECUS library, when it works, and
    Notes archives. I am NOT an HP aficionado, or an HP customer, or an
    HP vendor... I don't use or sell any HP products other than VMS
    systems, and HP printers to go with those systems. On the PC side of
    things we go with whatever wintel POC vendor the customer requires,
    sometimes HP, often not.

    I am an OpenVMS aficionado, customer, vendor, reseller, manager,
    programmer, etc. And I can't help but think that VMS and its
    associated hardware and apps will be more marginalized in the new uber-
    organization than it was in Encompass (relative to DECUS, where DEC's
    influence at the time was certainly not doing VMS huge favors
    either).

    If anyone would care to share their thoughts, or their vote, in the
    time remaining, it would be interesting to hear your reasoning on
    this, assuming anyone actually cares.

    Rich



  2. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan writes:
    >
    > The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    > is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go).


    You can thank VMS Engineering (and Sue Skonetski, specifically) for
    the Boot Camp.

    The user group du jour has no role in that fantastic event.

    --

    Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com

  3. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On Apr 30, 1:23*pm, bro...@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) wrote:
    > Rich Jordan writes:
    >
    > > The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    > > is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go). *

    >
    > You can thank VMS Engineering (and Sue Skonetski, specifically) for
    > the Boot Camp.
    >
    > The user group du jour has no role in that fantastic event.
    >
    > --
    >
    > Rob Brooks * *MSL -- Nashua * * * * * * * * * * brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com



    I'll echo what Rob said. Encompass has nothing to do with the
    Bootcamp.

  4. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On Apr 30, 12:28 pm, Rich Jordan wrote:
    > Today's the last day to vote on the great HP user group snogfest. To
    > be honest I don't have strong feelings either way though I tend
    > slightly against for the reason below; what I really wanted a vote on
    > back in the day was dumping the DECUS name in favor of Encompass, but
    > the members were not given that option at the time.


    The reasons that the members were not given the option to vote on
    keeping the DECUS name is because DECUS was not an independent user
    group. It was owned by DEC and whoever owned DEC at the time (I think
    it was still Compaq) and so was the DECUS name. DECUS was essentially
    told to cease and desist on the use of the name DECUS. I always
    thought it was a mistake on the part of the DECUS board to not be more
    clear and public that we were forced to give up the DECUS name and had
    no choice in the matter.

    Encompass IS an independent organization and does own it's own name.

    >
    > The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    > is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go). Some of the webinars have
    > been useful too, as is access to the DECUS library, when it works, and
    > Notes archives. I am NOT an HP aficionado, or an HP customer, or an
    > HP vendor... I don't use or sell any HP products other than VMS
    > systems, and HP printers to go with those systems. On the PC side of
    > things we go with whatever wintel POC vendor the customer requires,
    > sometimes HP, often not.
    >
    > I am an OpenVMS aficionado, customer, vendor, reseller, manager,
    > programmer, etc. And I can't help but think that VMS and its
    > associated hardware and apps will be more marginalized in the new uber-
    > organization than it was in Encompass (relative to DECUS, where DEC's
    > influence at the time was certainly not doing VMS huge favors
    > either).
    >
    > If anyone would care to share their thoughts, or their vote, in the
    > time remaining, it would be interesting to hear your reasoning on
    > this, assuming anyone actually cares.
    >
    > Rich


    I agree with your reasoning and also your temperature on this issue.
    I also voted against, but will not be heart broken if the proposal
    passes.

    Thomas Wirt
    Director of IS
    Kittle's Home Furnishings
    Indianapolis, IN, USA

  5. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On Apr 30, 1:23 pm, bro...@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) wrote:
    > Rich Jordan writes:
    >
    > > The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    > > is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go).

    >
    > You can thank VMS Engineering (and Sue Skonetski, specifically) for
    > the Boot Camp.
    >
    > The user group du jour has no role in that fantastic event.
    >
    > --
    >
    > Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com


    Rob
    apologies, you are correct. I got it and the Technology Forum
    and Expo mixed up (they are a part of that one, I believe). Boot Camp
    is the "spiritual" replacement for the DECUS Symposia by all accounts,
    and I still really wish I could go.

    Rich

  6. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Only "DECUS" was relevant. It was a worldwide global brand. Since some
    countries continued to use "DECUS", I somehow doubt that it was
    "impossible" to continue to use it.

    I was at the time involved with the user group, and the spiel I was
    given by the then DECUS president was that the USA wanted to gain
    recognition from Compaq and provide Compaq with a wintel user group, as
    well as including ITUG (tandem user group), hence the word "Encompass".

    In any event, "Encompass" is just as irrelevant as whatever theyt want
    it to be now.

    Since DECUS has not been registered and probably lapsed in trademark,
    why not retake it ? If "VMS" is no longer a trademark for the OS, then
    Shirley, "DECUS" would also have been allowed to lapse.

    With teh USA changing name Again, it will further fragment the brand,
    with some countries still with "DECUS", some with "Encompass" and the
    USA with whatever new name they choose.

    DECUS, despite having been dead for 10 years, is probably still far more
    recognizable brand than whatevere they want to use.

    They shoudl correct the original mistake of dumping "DECUS", instead of
    making the name changes even worse.

  7. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On Apr 30, 1:35 pm, twn...@kittles.com wrote:
    > On Apr 30, 12:28 pm, Rich Jordan wrote:
    >
    > > Today's the last day to vote on the great HP user group snogfest. To
    > > be honest I don't have strong feelings either way though I tend
    > > slightly against for the reason below; what I really wanted a vote on
    > > back in the day was dumping the DECUS name in favor of Encompass, but
    > > the members were not given that option at the time.

    >
    > The reasons that the members were not given the option to vote on
    > keeping the DECUS name is because DECUS was not an independent user
    > group. It was owned by DEC and whoever owned DEC at the time (I think
    > it was still Compaq) and so was the DECUS name. DECUS was essentially
    > told to cease and desist on the use of the name DECUS. I always
    > thought it was a mistake on the part of the DECUS board to not be more
    > clear and public that we were forced to give up the DECUS name and had
    > no choice in the matter.
    >
    > Encompass IS an independent organization and does own it's own name.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > The one main thing that Encompass still works with that I really like
    > > is the Boot Camp (I just wish I could go). Some of the webinars have
    > > been useful too, as is access to the DECUS library, when it works, and
    > > Notes archives. I am NOT an HP aficionado, or an HP customer, or an
    > > HP vendor... I don't use or sell any HP products other than VMS
    > > systems, and HP printers to go with those systems. On the PC side of
    > > things we go with whatever wintel POC vendor the customer requires,
    > > sometimes HP, often not.

    >
    > > I am an OpenVMS aficionado, customer, vendor, reseller, manager,
    > > programmer, etc. And I can't help but think that VMS and its
    > > associated hardware and apps will be more marginalized in the new uber-
    > > organization than it was in Encompass (relative to DECUS, where DEC's
    > > influence at the time was certainly not doing VMS huge favors
    > > either).

    >
    > > If anyone would care to share their thoughts, or their vote, in the
    > > time remaining, it would be interesting to hear your reasoning on
    > > this, assuming anyone actually cares.

    >
    > > Rich

    >
    > I agree with your reasoning and also your temperature on this issue.
    > I also voted against, but will not be heart broken if the proposal
    > passes.
    >
    > Thomas Wirt
    > Director of IS
    > Kittle's Home Furnishings
    > Indianapolis, IN, USA


    Thomas,
    thanks for replying. I remember getting documentation to vote
    for bylaws, etc, but was seriously annoyed at the apparently one-sided
    discontinuation of DECUS.

    So it was some twitterbrain at compaq that surreptitiously shoved
    the knife in the back. Thats better than the group just doing it to
    be corporate politically correct.

    Rich

  8. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    personally I think the consolidation (and getting the user groups run
    more professionally) is a good thing.

    I'm not hung up on the DECUS name despite being a member for many
    years (I don't do nostalgia).

    Members of the VMS community have has much chance as anyone to
    influence things as those who make their views known (as opposed to
    the silent majority) usually get someware and the VMS community tend
    to be quite vocal.

  9. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On 1 May, 09:12, IanMiller wrote:
    > personally I think the consolidation (and getting the user groups run
    > more professionally) is a good thing.
    >
    > I'm not hung up on the DECUS name despite being a member for many
    > years *(I don't do nostalgia).
    >
    > Members of the VMS community have has much chance as anyone to
    > influence things as those who make their views known (as opposed to
    > the silent majority) usually get someware and the VMS community tend
    > to be quite vocal.


    The DECUS name was a Digital trademark and there's one group that I'm
    aware of in Europe that still use it. Whether that will continue I
    have no idea.

    Endeavour (not the final name, just a code name for the migration) is
    a grand plan if it gives the users something extra.

    The people here are (obviously) VMS focussed. The DECUS branding
    means nothing to HP and nothing to HP users - it's as meaningless as
    Interex was to Deccies.

    Which DECUS chapter are you a member of Ian?

  10. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 5:09 am, etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    > On 1 May, 09:12, IanMiller wrote:
    >
    > > personally I think the consolidation (and getting the user groups run
    > > more professionally) is a good thing.

    >
    > > I'm not hung up on the DECUS name despite being a member for many
    > > years (I don't do nostalgia).

    >
    > > Members of the VMS community have has much chance as anyone to
    > > influence things as those who make their views known (as opposed to
    > > the silent majority) usually get someware and the VMS community tend
    > > to be quite vocal.

    >
    > The DECUS name was a Digital trademark and there's one group that I'm
    > aware of in Europe that still use it. Whether that will continue I
    > have no idea.
    >
    > Endeavour (not the final name, just a code name for the migration) is
    > a grand plan if it gives the users something extra.
    >
    > The people here are (obviously) VMS focussed. The DECUS branding
    > means nothing to HP and nothing to HP users - it's as meaningless as
    > Interex was to Deccies.
    >
    > Which DECUS chapter are you a member of Ian?


    I wasn't suggesting bringing back DECUS; that ship has sailed along
    with DEC. I didn't appreciate the way it happened though, and to me
    at least that tied in to the later changes I wasn't happy with in
    Encompass, and now with this potential new group. And yeah, I do
    nostalgic. If I ever make it to a boot camp I'll be wearing something
    with a DECUS or d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo on it, but its not a defining
    issue.

    I voted no based on the one fact; VMS users in the organization would
    be a small fish in a suddenly considerably larger pond. Vocal or
    not... its not like being vocal has helped all that much with the VMS
    situation re: HP.

    Been to the new improved HP website? VMS is now buried even farther
    down since operating systems no longer merit a front page link; you
    have to go to software (or all enterprise products:software), then
    locate the OS's they do list (HPUX, Linux, Windows) and click the "see
    more operating systems" link (the one OpenVMS link on the s/w page is
    for the "solutions" page, not the OS's main page or description
    areas). Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. At
    the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.

    Thats what I don't want (but do expect) to happen to VMS-related items
    and issues in the new user group; not just shrunk down to 'also-ran'
    but also hidden by the size and overdone "diversity" of the new group.

    Guess we'll see when they announce the results.

    Rich

  11. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 9:51*am, Rich Jordan wrote:
    > On May 1, 5:09 am, etmsr...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On 1 May, 09:12, IanMiller wrote:

    >
    > > > personally I think the consolidation (and getting the user groups run
    > > > more professionally) is a good thing.

    >
    > > > I'm not hung up on the DECUS name despite being a member for many
    > > > years *(I don't do nostalgia).

    >
    > > > Members of the VMS community have has much chance as anyone to
    > > > influence things as those who make their views known (as opposed to
    > > > the silent majority) usually get someware and the VMS community tend
    > > > to be quite vocal.

    >
    > > The DECUS name was a Digital trademark and there's one group that I'm
    > > aware of in Europe that still use it. *Whether that will continue I
    > > have no idea.

    >
    > > Endeavour (not the final name, just a code name for the migration) is
    > > a grand plan if it gives the users something extra.

    >
    > > The people here are (obviously) VMS focussed. *The DECUS branding
    > > means nothing to HP and nothing to HP users - it's as meaningless as
    > > Interex was to Deccies.

    >
    > > Which DECUS chapter are you a member of Ian?

    >
    > I wasn't suggesting bringing back DECUS; that ship has sailed along
    > with DEC. *I didn't appreciate the way it happened though, and to me
    > at least that tied in to the later changes I wasn't happy with in
    > Encompass, and now with this potential new group. *And yeah, I do
    > nostalgic. *If I ever make it to a boot camp I'll be wearing something
    > with a DECUS or d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo on it, but its not a defining
    > issue.
    >
    > I voted no based on the one fact; VMS users in the organization would
    > be a small fish in a suddenly considerably larger pond. *Vocal or
    > not... its not like being vocal has helped all that much with the VMS
    > situation re: HP.
    >
    > Been to the new improved HP website? *VMS is now buried even farther
    > down since operating systems no longer merit a front page link; you
    > have to go to software (or all enterprise products:software), then
    > locate the OS's they do list (HPUX, Linux, Windows) and click the "see
    > more operating systems" link (the one OpenVMS link on the s/w page is
    > for the "solutions" page, not the OS's main page or description
    > areas). *Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. *At
    > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.
    >
    > Thats what I don't want (but do expect) to happen to VMS-related items
    > and issues in the new user group; not just shrunk down to 'also-ran'
    > but also hidden by the size and overdone "diversity" of the new group.
    >
    > Guess we'll see when they announce the results.
    >
    > Rich- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I agree that OpenVMS should be higher up the chain then where it
    currently is. It should not live at the same level as 2 other
    officially retired products.
    That said, I will send a note to Mr. Stallard who heads up the BCS
    group.

    For others interested, he can be reached at:
    scottstallardhpcom

    While it may or may not get fixed, it will not get fixed by comments
    made (only) here.

    And the DECUS name essentially died when DEC died and that's been
    about 10 years now. Let it go.


  12. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan wrote:

    > locate the OS's they do list (HPUX, Linux, Windows) and click the "see
    > more operating systems" link (the one OpenVMS link on the s/w page is
    > for the "solutions" page, not the OS's main page or description
    > areas). Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. At
    > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.


    Wow, I know HP doesn't care much for VMS, but this is pretty bad.
    Perhaps June 25 2008 might bring a formal announcement of the end of the
    line ?

    HP could announce that they would deliver 8.4 and then only update
    ia64-vms to support new IA64 hardware until IA64 is no longer produced.



    > Thats what I don't want (but do expect) to happen to VMS-related items
    > and issues in the new user group; not just shrunk down to 'also-ran'
    > but also hidden by the size and overdone "diversity" of the new group.


    Encompass had been meant to give DECUS a broader appeal, supporting
    Windows, Unix, Tandem, lawmowers and industrial transformers.

    The issue is that for a user group to be of value to members, it must be
    "best in class" for the product the members are interested in. And you
    can't be "best in class" if your user group wants to cater to everyone.


    What this "Endeavour" thing should be is just an umprella organisation
    supporting specialised user groups (or SIGs or whatever you want to call
    them). So you'd have HP-DECUS catering to VMS. You'd have HP-ITUG for
    NSK, HP-Interex for HP-UX etc.

    Consider that from a "content" point of view, the user group needs close
    contact with its own users as well as the group within HP that runs the
    OS/software they are interested in (aka: Contact with Sue and VMS
    engineers in our case).

    The umbrella orgaisation can provide logistical support (membership
    database, mailing to members, helping organise events (book venues,
    transportation etc etc) but would not be involved in any specific
    products and might even be invisible to the normal users since their
    goals is to serve the real product specific user groups.

  13. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    DaveG wrote:

    > And the DECUS name essentially died when DEC died and that's been
    > about 10 years now. Let it go.


    Not quite.

    do a whois DIGITAL.COM and you'll see:
    Hewlett-Packard Company (DOM-297461)
    3000 Hanover Street Palo Alto CA 94304 US


    Compaq inheritad all the brand names DEC had. HP inherited all those
    brand names too. Obviouly, it can choose to let some of them lapse. But
    it did manage to re-use ALL-IN-1 for one fo its printer lines.


    If HP has chosen to not renew the DECUS trademark, then it shoudl be
    free to be registered by anyone and perhaps a real DECUS usergroup could
    be started.

    If HP is to retire VMS on june 25th this year, perhaps a real and
    separate DECUS user group would need to be formed since a VMS usergroup
    under HP wouldn't make sense anymore.

  14. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    In article <0265501f$0$24991$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >DaveG wrote:
    >
    >> And the DECUS name essentially died when DEC died and that's been
    >> about 10 years now. Let it go.

    >
    >Not quite.
    >
    >do a whois DIGITAL.COM and you'll see:
    > Hewlett-Packard Company (DOM-297461)
    > 3000 Hanover Street Palo Alto CA 94304 US
    >
    >
    >Compaq inheritad all the brand names DEC had. HP inherited all those
    >brand names too. Obviouly, it can choose to let some of them lapse. But
    >it did manage to re-use ALL-IN-1 for one fo its printer lines.
    >
    >
    >If HP has chosen to not renew the DECUS trademark, then it shoudl be
    >free to be registered by anyone and perhaps a real DECUS usergroup could
    >be started.
    >
    >If HP is to retire VMS on june 25th this year, perhaps a real and
    >separate DECUS user group would need to be formed since a VMS usergroup
    >under HP wouldn't make sense anymore.


    The last thing VMS needs is totally unsupported speculation about a date for
    its demise on this newsgroup.
    The continual stream of VMS is dying posts for the past decade is bad enough
    but providing a made up date is really going too far.

    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University


  15. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 1:25 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:
    > In article <0265501f$0$24991$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > >DaveG wrote:

    >
    > >> And the DECUS name essentially died when DEC died and that's been
    > >> about 10 years now. Let it go.

    >
    > >Not quite.

    >
    > >do a whois DIGITAL.COM and you'll see:
    > > Hewlett-Packard Company (DOM-297461)
    > > 3000 Hanover Street Palo Alto CA 94304 US

    >
    > >Compaq inheritad all the brand names DEC had. HP inherited all those
    > >brand names too. Obviouly, it can choose to let some of them lapse. But
    > >it did manage to re-use ALL-IN-1 for one fo its printer lines.

    >
    > >If HP has chosen to not renew the DECUS trademark, then it shoudl be
    > >free to be registered by anyone and perhaps a real DECUS usergroup could
    > >be started.

    >
    > >If HP is to retire VMS on june 25th this year, perhaps a real and
    > >separate DECUS user group would need to be formed since a VMS usergroup
    > >under HP wouldn't make sense anymore.

    >
    > The last thing VMS needs is totally unsupported speculation about a date for
    > its demise on this newsgroup.
    > The continual stream of VMS is dying posts for the past decade is bad enough
    > but providing a made up date is really going too far.
    >
    > David Webb
    > Security team leader
    > CCSS
    > Middlesex University


    Agreed.

    I think the website treatment was worthy of post and comment, but the
    speculation that instantly resulted is hardly useful.

  16. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan wrote:

    > I think the website treatment was worthy of post and comment, but the
    > speculation that instantly resulted is hardly useful.


    If HP didn't want speculation about the future of VMS, there wouldn't
    be any speculation about the future of VMS. HP is a marketing company
    and it knows very well what to do to give any one product market
    confidence. It has chosen to not do this for VMS.


    Moving VMS over to the "graveyard" section of the web site is a VERY
    overt move in my opinion.

    The above were based on the original poster's description of VMS's new
    location.

    I never navigate the HP web site, I always use www.hp.com/go/vms

    So, I enabled javascript and decided to navigate it to see for myself.

    www.hp.com -> mouse over and click "large enterprise business"

    In the "large enterprise business" pop-up frame, click on "software"

    this gets me to:
    http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/.../software.html

    Top right, there are Tru64 Unix downloads. (but no VMS)
    Fruther down, there is mention of OpenVMS for resources for partners and
    developpers.

    HP-UX, Linux and Microsoft Windows are mentioned in operating systems.

    You do have to clock on the "see more operating systems".

    this brings me to:
    http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/...ftware_os.html

    This lists:

    HP-UX Linux
    Microsoft Windows OpenVMS
    NonStop Other (MPE, Novell, SCO)
    Tru64


    There is even a little picture of "Hp enhances key attributes of OpenVMS
    with version 8.3" on the bottom left.


    The conclusion:

    It is clear that VMS and NonStop are not part of the mainstream
    products. HP-UX, Windows and Linux are the ones listed as operating
    systems on the software.html page.

    However, the software_os.html page is by no means a software graveyard
    since it include HP UX, windows and linux as well as the others.


    > areas). Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. At
    > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.



    The original text really provided an image of VMS being on a "software
    graveyard" page. I reacted to that. BUT the software_os.html page is
    NOT a graveyard. It does have an "other software" section that contains
    MPE, Novell and SCO, but VMS is not in that section.

    What surprises me is that Tru64 is still featured fairly prominently.
    "Tru64 UNIX is HP's enterprise operating system for AlphaServer
    systems." You'd think it would have been lumped along withthe "other
    software".



    However, it is true that VMS and nonstop should have been listed in the
    software.html page below hp-ux, windows and linux. It wouldn't have been
    diffultly to fit it in since it is at the bottom of the page anyways.



  17. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 3:24*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > I think the website treatment was worthy of post and comment, but the
    > > speculation that instantly resulted is hardly useful.

    >
    > If HP didn't want speculation about the future of VMS, *there wouldn't
    > be any speculation about the future of VMS. HP is a marketing company
    > and it knows very well what to do to give any one product market
    > confidence. It has chosen to not do this for VMS.
    >
    > Moving VMS over to the "graveyard" section of the web site is a VERY
    > overt move in my opinion.
    >
    > The above were based on the original poster's description of VMS's new
    > location.
    >
    > I never navigate the HP web site, I always usewww.hp.com/go/vms
    >
    > So, I enabled javascript and decided to navigate it to see for myself.
    >
    > www.hp.com-> mouse over and click "large enterprise business"
    >
    > In the "large enterprise business" pop-up frame, click on "software"
    >
    > this gets me to:http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/.../software.html
    >
    > Top right, there are Tru64 Unix downloads. (but no VMS)
    > Fruther down, there is mention of OpenVMS for resources for partners and
    > developpers.
    >
    > HP-UX, Linux and Microsoft Windows are mentioned in operating systems.
    >
    > You do have to clock on the "see more operating systems".
    >
    > this brings me to:http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/...tware_os..html
    >
    > This lists:
    >
    > HP-UX * * * * * * * * * Linux
    > Microsoft Windows * * * OpenVMS
    > NonStop * * * * * * * * Other (MPE, Novell, SCO)
    > Tru64
    >
    > There is even a little picture of "Hp enhances key attributes of OpenVMS
    > with version 8.3" on the bottom left.
    >
    > The conclusion:
    >
    > It is clear that VMS and NonStop are not part of the mainstream
    > products. HP-UX, Windows and Linux are the ones listed as operating
    > systems on the software.html page.
    >
    > However, the software_os.html page is by no means a software graveyard
    > since it include HP UX, windows and linux as well as the others.
    >
    > > areas). *Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. *At
    > > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.

    >
    > The original text really provided an image of VMS being on a "software
    > graveyard" page. *I reacted to that. *BUT the software_os.html page is
    > NOT a graveyard. It does have an "other software" section that contains
    > MPE, Novell and SCO, but VMS is not in that section.
    >
    > What surprises me is that Tru64 is still featured fairly prominently.
    > "Tru64 UNIX is HP's enterprise operating system for AlphaServer
    > systems." *You'd think it would have been lumped along withthe "other
    > software".
    >
    > However, it is true that VMS and nonstop should have been listed in the
    > software.html page below hp-ux, windows and linux. It wouldn't have been
    > diffultly to fit it in since it is at the bottom of the page anyways.


    Quick update. Just got a reply from Scott Stallard with the message:

    Thanks --- I'll look into it.

    Reply came in < 1 hour.

  18. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 3:30 pm, DaveG wrote:
    > On May 1, 3:24 pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > > I think the website treatment was worthy of post and comment, but the
    > > > speculation that instantly resulted is hardly useful.

    >
    > > If HP didn't want speculation about the future of VMS, there wouldn't
    > > be any speculation about the future of VMS. HP is a marketing company
    > > and it knows very well what to do to give any one product market
    > > confidence. It has chosen to not do this for VMS.

    >
    > > Moving VMS over to the "graveyard" section of the web site is a VERY
    > > overt move in my opinion.

    >
    > > The above were based on the original poster's description of VMS's new
    > > location.

    >
    > > I never navigate the HP web site, I always usewww.hp.com/go/vms

    >
    > > So, I enabled javascript and decided to navigate it to see for myself.

    >
    > >www.hp.com-> mouse over and click "large enterprise business"

    >
    > > In the "large enterprise business" pop-up frame, click on "software"

    >
    > > this gets me to:http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/.../software.html

    >
    > > Top right, there are Tru64 Unix downloads. (but no VMS)
    > > Fruther down, there is mention of OpenVMS for resources for partners and
    > > developpers.

    >
    > > HP-UX, Linux and Microsoft Windows are mentioned in operating systems.

    >
    > > You do have to clock on the "see more operating systems".

    >
    > > this brings me to:http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/...ftware_os.html

    >
    > > This lists:

    >
    > > HP-UX Linux
    > > Microsoft Windows OpenVMS
    > > NonStop Other (MPE, Novell, SCO)
    > > Tru64

    >
    > > There is even a little picture of "Hp enhances key attributes of OpenVMS
    > > with version 8.3" on the bottom left.

    >
    > > The conclusion:

    >
    > > It is clear that VMS and NonStop are not part of the mainstream
    > > products. HP-UX, Windows and Linux are the ones listed as operating
    > > systems on the software.html page.

    >
    > > However, the software_os.html page is by no means a software graveyard
    > > since it include HP UX, windows and linux as well as the others.

    >
    > > > areas). Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. At
    > > > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.

    >
    > > The original text really provided an image of VMS being on a "software
    > > graveyard" page. I reacted to that. BUT the software_os.html page is
    > > NOT a graveyard. It does have an "other software" section that contains
    > > MPE, Novell and SCO, but VMS is not in that section.

    >
    > > What surprises me is that Tru64 is still featured fairly prominently.
    > > "Tru64 UNIX is HP's enterprise operating system for AlphaServer
    > > systems." You'd think it would have been lumped along withthe "other
    > > software".

    >
    > > However, it is true that VMS and nonstop should have been listed in the
    > > software.html page below hp-ux, windows and linux. It wouldn't have been
    > > diffultly to fit it in since it is at the bottom of the page anyways.

    >
    > Quick update. Just got a reply from Scott Stallard with the message:
    >
    > Thanks --- I'll look into it.
    >
    > Reply came in < 1 hour.


    Pretty nice. I have never received a response (other than the
    automated confirmation of receipt) from any note sent to an HP
    executive personage.

    Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    the feedback folks would be able to fix it


  19. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan wrote:

    > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    > consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    > the feedback folks would be able to fix it


    As long as VMS is no more hidden than Tandem/NSK, then I don't think
    there can be any legitimate complaints. Neither are key HP products,
    they are relegated to niche markets where HP just expect those who need
    that systenm to come to HP (instead of HP trying to sell them that system)

    HOWEVER: If there were an active VMS focused user group, such user group
    could have long ago pressured HP to make VMS as prominent as
    HP-UX/Windows/Linux on its web pages.

  20. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 1, 4:36*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    > > consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    > > the feedback folks would be able to fix it

    >
    > As long as VMS is no more hidden than Tandem/NSK, then I don't think
    > there can be any legitimate complaints. Neither are key HP products,
    > they are relegated to niche markets where HP just expect those who need
    > that systenm to come to HP (instead of HP trying to sell them that system)
    >
    > HOWEVER: If there were an active VMS focused user group, such user group
    > could have long ago pressured HP to make VMS as prominent as
    > HP-UX/Windows/Linux on its web pages.


    I did send Stallard a thank you reply and also mentioned that to be
    fair, NonStop was also not found on the web page referenced, but could
    be found under "See More Operating Systems".


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