Encompass - Endeavour - VMS

This is a discussion on Encompass - Endeavour - VMS ; On May 2, 8:53 am, DaveG wrote: > On May 1, 4:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Rich Jordan wrote: > > > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do > > > consider ...

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Thread: Encompass - Endeavour

  1. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 2, 8:53 am, DaveG wrote:
    > On May 1, 4:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    >
    > > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    > > > consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    > > > the feedback folks would be able to fix it

    >
    > > As long as VMS is no more hidden than Tandem/NSK, then I don't think
    > > there can be any legitimate complaints. Neither are key HP products,
    > > they are relegated to niche markets where HP just expect those who need
    > > that systenm to come to HP (instead of HP trying to sell them that system)

    >
    > > HOWEVER: If there were an active VMS focused user group, such user group
    > > could have long ago pressured HP to make VMS as prominent as
    > > HP-UX/Windows/Linux on its web pages.

    >
    > I did send Stallard a thank you reply and also mentioned that to be
    > fair, NonStop was also not found on the web page referenced, but could
    > be found under "See More Operating Systems".


    Dave,
    looking forward to hearing what response you get, if any.

    Rich

  2. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Guess I voted on the losing side. Just got an email, and here's a
    quote:

    " As of this week, the vote for consolidation of Encompass, ITUG and
    HP-Interex EMEA is final and the consolidation has been approved by
    our respective membership communities. It's time to meet your new HP
    user community: Connect , Your Independent HP Business Technology
    Community . "

    "Connect". Well, connect me to HP's marketing department please, I've
    got something I want to say to them.

    Guess we'll see what happens next.

    Rich

  3. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan wrote:
    > Guess I voted on the losing side. Just got an email, and here's a
    > quote:
    >
    > " As of this week, the vote for consolidation of Encompass, ITUG and
    > HP-Interex EMEA is final and the consolidation has been approved by
    > our respective membership communities. It's time to meet your new HP
    > user community: Connect , Your Independent HP Business Technology
    > Community . "
    >
    > "Connect". Well, connect me to HP's marketing department please, I've
    > got something I want to say to them.
    >
    > Guess we'll see what happens next.
    >
    > Rich


    How about naming the various SIGs "Connect*", such as ConnectDECUS,
    ConnectITUG and ConnectInterex, etc.? Then, we just need to remember
    that like the word "Open", "Connect" is silent.


    --
    John Santos
    Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    781-861-0670 ext 539

  4. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    Rich Jordan wrote:

    > " As of this week, the vote for consolidation of Encompass, ITUG and
    > HP-Interex EMEA is final and the consolidation has been approved by
    > our respective membership communities.



    Funny, as a DECUS Canada (or whatever its name is this week) member, I
    was never told about such a vote.

    One should point out that HP now gets most of its profits from
    outside of the USA, and I would have hoped that "outside of the USA"
    would have had a fair participation in what appears to be a mock vote.

    A rolling stone gathers no moss. DECUS had had all its moss but it was
    all zapped and the worldwide branding destroyed. And now they are
    starting from scratch.

    It would have been better for DECUS to be reformed as a SIG of Interex.

  5. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 2, 9:53*am, Rich Jordan wrote:
    > On May 2, 8:53 am, DaveG wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On May 1, 4:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote:

    >
    > > > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > > > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    > > > > consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    > > > > the feedback folks would be able to fix it

    >
    > > > As long as VMS is no more hidden than Tandem/NSK, then I don't think
    > > > there can be any legitimate complaints. Neither are key HP products,
    > > > they are relegated to niche markets where HP just expect those who need
    > > > that systenm to come to HP (instead of HP trying to sell them that system)

    >
    > > > HOWEVER: If there were an active VMS focused user group, such user group
    > > > could have long ago pressured HP to make VMS as prominent as
    > > > HP-UX/Windows/Linux on its web pages.

    >
    > > I did send Stallard a thank you reply and also mentioned that to be
    > > fair, NonStop was also not found on the web page referenced, but could
    > > be found under "See More Operating Systems".

    >
    > Dave,
    > * * *looking forward to hearing what response you get, if any.
    >
    > Rich- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Take a look at the web page now. OpenVMS is no longer on page 2.
    Thanks to Scott Stallard and several others for #1 looking into this
    and #2 fixing it.

    Dave...

  6. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 7, 9:45 am, DaveG wrote:
    > On May 2, 9:53 am, Rich Jordan wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On May 2, 8:53 am, DaveG wrote:

    >
    > > > On May 1, 4:36 pm, JF Mezei wrote:

    >
    > > > > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > > > > Feedback folks are pretty good, especially for website errors (I do
    > > > > > consider VMS' position on the page to be an error but I don't suppose
    > > > > > the feedback folks would be able to fix it

    >
    > > > > As long as VMS is no more hidden than Tandem/NSK, then I don't think
    > > > > there can be any legitimate complaints. Neither are key HP products,
    > > > > they are relegated to niche markets where HP just expect those who need
    > > > > that systenm to come to HP (instead of HP trying to sell them that system)

    >
    > > > > HOWEVER: If there were an active VMS focused user group, such user group
    > > > > could have long ago pressured HP to make VMS as prominent as
    > > > > HP-UX/Windows/Linux on its web pages.

    >
    > > > I did send Stallard a thank you reply and also mentioned that to be
    > > > fair, NonStop was also not found on the web page referenced, but could
    > > > be found under "See More Operating Systems".

    >
    > > Dave,
    > > looking forward to hearing what response you get, if any.

    >
    > > Rich- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > Take a look at the web page now. OpenVMS is no longer on page 2.
    > Thanks to Scott Stallard and several others for #1 looking into this
    > and #2 fixing it.
    >
    > Dave...


    Sweet. Definite improvement. While I would have liked to see it
    displayed more prominently, the O/Ss listed are in alphabetical order,
    which is certainly acceptable.

    Nice job, Dave. Maybe I will try nudging the HP powers that be from
    time to time again; it never seemed to work before, but it certainly
    looks like it did this time.

    Rich

  7. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On 1 May, 18:36, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Rich Jordan wrote:
    > > locate the OS's they do list (HPUX, Linux, Windows) and click the "see
    > > more operating systems" link (the one OpenVMS link on the s/w page is
    > > for the "solutions" page, not the OS's main page or description
    > > areas). *Finally, on the 'other' page you see a link for OpenVMS. *At
    > > the same level as the dead Tru-64 OS and links for MPE.

    >
    > Wow, I know HP doesn't care much for VMS, but this is pretty bad.
    > Perhaps June 25 2008 might bring a formal announcement of the end of the
    > line ?
    >
    > HP could announce that they would deliver 8.4 and then only update
    > ia64-vms to support new IA64 hardware until IA64 is no longer produced.
    >
    > > Thats what I don't want (but do expect) to happen to VMS-related items
    > > and issues in the new user group; not just shrunk down to 'also-ran'
    > > but also hidden by the size and overdone "diversity" of the new group.

    >
    > Encompass had been meant to give DECUS a broader appeal, supporting
    > Windows, Unix, Tandem, lawmowers and industrial transformers.
    >
    > The issue is that for a user group to be of value to members, it must be
    > "best in class" for the product the members are interested in. And you
    > can't be "best in class" if your user group wants to cater to everyone.
    >
    > What this "Endeavour" thing should be is just an umprella organisation
    > supporting specialised user groups (or SIGs or whatever you want to call
    > them). So you'd have HP-DECUS catering to VMS. You'd have HP-ITUG for
    > NSK, HP-Interex for HP-UX etc.
    >
    > Consider that from a "content" point of view, the user group needs close
    > contact with its own users as well as the group within HP that runs the
    > OS/software they are interested in (aka: Contact with Sue and VMS
    > engineers in our case).
    >
    > The umbrella orgaisation can provide logistical support (membership
    > database, mailing to members, helping organise events (book venues,
    > transportation etc etc) but would not be involved in any specific
    > products and might even be invisible to the normal users since their
    > goals is to serve the real product specific user groups.


    I think you may be optimistic and simplistic is this outline JF.

    DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably
    the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix.
    It wasn't just VMS.
    The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with
    thousands of people at them. The idea of having a group for VMS and a
    group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for
    Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging
    and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not
    survive out on its own anyway.

    The other aspects of this with VMS being lower down the list than
    people want is fine in itself and I can't criticise having it moved up
    in the pages on the HP website. That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche
    products. You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that, it's the ever
    increasing progression of Billy Bloatware that did that. Heck, I love
    VMS but I'm typing this on a PC because that's what my employer puts
    on my desk. My guess is that Sue works with a PC although she loves
    VMS and the VMS customer base.

    Steve

  8. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

    > DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably
    > the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix.
    > It wasn't just VMS.


    Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS. Yes, it had DEC-Unix/Ultrix, but
    most Unix people went to Unix gatherings because this is where there was
    the critical mass to make such gatherings worthwhile. Similarly, VMS
    people went to DECUS gatherings because this si where there was the
    critical mass to make those meetings worthwhile.

    > The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with
    > thousands of people at them. The idea of having a group for VMS and a
    > group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for
    > Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging
    > and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not
    > survive out on its own anyway.



    Having a user group that does everything will make that user group
    irrelevant because it won't be good enough in any one area to make it
    worthwhile. This is why DECUS didn't do well with Unix or with PCs.


    > in the pages on the HP website. That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche
    > products. You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that,


    Oh, that is a good one. Of course Digital and Compaq and HP are to blame
    for that. They are the ones who decided to not make VMS compete and
    price it our of the market. Palmer is the one who started the "VMS has
    no future, lets cannabalise it" trend.



    Now, if what is left of the worldwide VMS customer base is so small that
    it can't warrant its own user group, then so be it and let a little
    subdivision tag along with Interex (or whatever its name is this week).

    But i would rather have a single worldwide DECUS usergroup, rather than
    a total cacophony of structures around the world that make each entity
    too small to survive, especially if one entity (the USA) makes decisions
    without consulting the rest of the world.

  9. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    On May 9, 3:13*pm, JF Mezei wrote:


    > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS.


    Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the
    years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more
    than VMS. Much more.

    Dave...


  10. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    In article <4824b117$0$7308$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >
    > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS.


    Try telling that to the RSX SIG, the Large Systems SIG, the
    Networks SIG, the Hardware SIG, ...


  11. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    In article <4824c50f$0$12270$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >DaveG wrote:
    >
    >> Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the
    >> years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more
    >> than VMS. Much more.

    >
    >The portions of DECUS that were not VMS existed because there was
    >nowhereelse for users to go. The PDP11 related software had a place
    >within DECUS and there was nowhere else to go. But just because it
    >existed within DECUS didn't mean that (at least since the late 1980s),
    >DECUS wasn't focused mostly on VMS since this is where the largest
    >number of members came from (and came FOR).
    >
    >People expected the majority of sessions at DECUS symposia to be VMS
    >related.
    >
    >
    >So now, VMS will be to Interex (or whatever its name is this week) what
    >RSX/RSTS was to DECUS in the late 1980s. Just a small SIG to support a
    >non key product that is for all practical purposes dead. (some would
    >call this a "niche product").
    >
    >
    >Sue's Bootcamop has become the pre-eminent VMS worldwide annual event.
    >Don't expect that Interex (or whatever its name is this week) will have
    >a significant VMS content in its conferences/symposia.
    >
    >If you're a VMS guy without interest in HP-UX, will you really be able
    >to justify going to the Interex (or whatever its name is this week)
    >conference with only one VMS session per day ? (or whatever token number
    >they'll have) ?
    >


    If the HP Tech Forum continues as it has been, there's an adequate supply of
    interesting material - VMS-specific and OS-agnostic (like storage sessions) -
    to make it worth going. I wish I could go to the Boot Camp as well, but the
    scheduling of that is inconvenient.

    I see no reason to think that VMS content at the Tech Forum will drop for the
    reason that the user organizations have merged. (It may drop because the
    market for VMS sessions dropped - and since you have to register for sessions,
    they know what the interest level for sessions are.)

    -- Alan


  12. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > DaveG wrote:
    >> Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the
    >> years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more
    >> than VMS. Much more.

    >
    > The portions of DECUS that were not VMS existed because there was
    > nowhereelse for users to go. The PDP11 related software had a place
    > within DECUS and there was nowhere else to go.


    The VMS people did not have somewhere else to go either, so I can
    not really see the point.

    > But just because it
    > existed within DECUS didn't mean that (at least since the late 1980s),
    > DECUS wasn't focused mostly on VMS since this is where the largest
    > number of members came from (and came FOR).


    VMS was probably the biggest group. But VMS was not isolated
    from everything else. Most VMS sites had DEC PC's, PathWorks
    etc..

    Arne

  13. Re: Encompass - Endeavour

    In article
    <29054881-964a-45c0-8f5a-ebf72427fa55@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
    DaveG wrote:

    > On May 9, 3:13*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    >
    >
    > > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS.

    >
    > Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the
    > years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more
    > than VMS. Much more.
    >

    RT-11 and RSX for me, and I gather there were thriving TOPS and RSTS
    groups too.

    --
    Paul Sture

    Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
    http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~stu...bookmarks.html

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