Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 - VMS

This is a discussion on Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 - VMS ; "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:480f4afe$0$31175$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com... > John Reagan wrote: > >> the presentation. There was discussion of JSTARS and where OpenVMS >> plays a part. > > Not asking stuff specific to JSTARs: Are there any concerns about hard ...

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Thread: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

  1. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86


    "JF Mezei" wrote in message
    news:480f4afe$0$31175$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
    > John Reagan wrote:
    >
    >> the presentation. There was discussion of JSTARS and where OpenVMS
    >> plays a part.

    >
    > Not asking stuff specific to JSTARs: Are there any concerns about hard
    > disk drives being used in aircraft, especially military ones that may be
    > called to make "interesting "manoeuvers that create a couple of Gs or go
    > through turbulence etc ?
    >


    Yes.

    > Modern aircraft now have large storage arrays for the in-flight
    > entertainment systems and I suspect they would have to deal with the
    > same issues.


    No. For example, they do not have to withstand decompression.




  2. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article ,
    "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    > Tom Linden wrote:
    >> On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:27:21 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>>> In article <480de2f7$0$11639$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
    >>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    >>>>>> Yes, Bill, I know, but how many of them do tie down their (not
    >>>>>> "there" -- a=
    >>>>>> nd I haven't used "you're", so not "your" -- this is general, not
    >>>>>> specifica=
    >>>>>> lly to you Mr. Gunshannon) systems? I know of several
    >>>>>> organisations that d=
    >>>>>> o not.
    >>>>> I hear the grammar police sirens wailing.
    >>>> Wen I have been in Germany I have frequently been known to get my
    >>>> Der/Die/Das wrong, even after living there and taking 4 years of
    >>>> College level German. I have never found a German who would correct
    >>>> me, even if I requested it. I have always found it interesting
    >>>> how English speakers find it so necessary. (Oblig. Anecdote: I was
    >>>> eating breakfast in a Perkins Restaurant in Gettysburg, PA. back in
    >>>> March. Two tables from me a man and two women were eating together
    >>>> and chatting. One of the women was continually interupting the
    >>>> conversation of the others to correct their grammar. Go figure!!)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Der, die, und das are merely the definite article in three different
    >>> "genders": masculine, feminine and neuter. None of these genders
    >>> really contribute anything useful to the language.

    >>
    >> depends upon your testosterone level, a car is der Wagen, die Maschine
    >> oder das
    >> Auto.
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>> English has a few such "hangovers". For example, a ship is always
    >>> "feminine"; in German "die schiff". ("A little boat can be anything
    >>> you please but a full rigged ship's a lady!") For the most part,
    >>> inanimate objects are neuter in English. There is no logic in which
    >>> German nouns are masculine, feminine, or neuter; it's rote
    >>> memorization all the way!
    >>>

    >>
    >> das Schiff, bitte.
    >>

    > Nein! Die schiff is correct. But das boat! At least that's the way
    > it was taught 50 years ago. My teacher was a native speaker.


    Oh boy, my turn....

    It's "das Boot", not "das boat". So, anyone remember the movie of the
    same name? :-)

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  3. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <480f23a1$0$25036$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    > In article <677i8hF2k0pq2U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>In article <480de2f7$0$11639$607ed4bc@cv.net>,
    >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    >>>
    >>>>Yes, Bill, I know, but how many of them do tie down their (not "there" -- a=
    >>>>nd I haven't used "you're", so not "your" -- this is general, not specifica=
    >>>>lly to you Mr. Gunshannon) systems? I know of several organisations that d=
    >>>>o not.
    >>>
    >>> I hear the grammar police sirens wailing.

    >>
    >>Wen I have been in Germany I have frequently been known to get my
    >>Der/Die/Das wrong, even after living there and taking 4 years of
    >>College level German. I have never found a German who would correct
    >>me, even if I requested it. I have always found it interesting
    >>how English speakers find it so necessary. (Oblig. Anecdote: I was
    >>eating breakfast in a Perkins Restaurant in Gettysburg, PA. back in
    >>March. Two tables from me a man and two women were eating together
    >>and chatting. One of the women was continually interupting the
    >>conversation of the others to correct their grammar. Go figure!!)

    >
    > You travelled all the way to Gettysburg for a Perkins breakfast? None
    > up in Scranton area? You went to the wrong place for brekkie man. The
    > Classic Diner on Lancaster Ave in Frazer is the place to go.


    When I am not on active duty I do my military duty in Gettysburg. Perkins
    is the only place open early enough and with service fast enough for me to
    have breakfast before I have to report to work. And I am definitely a
    breakfast person. Of course, a Denny's would be better. :-) Now we
    can start a new thread on where to eat when yu are in the middle of nowhere.

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  4. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article ,
    John Reagan writes:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> Ah yes, the typical VMS in DOD response. I would tell you but then I would
    >> have to kill you.
    >>

    >
    > I meant the regular Bootcamp non-disclosure, not any extra NG or DOD
    > non-disclosure. Given that there were non-US citizens in the room and
    > the hotel is not sure, there was nothing of real DOD level secrecy in
    > the presentation. There was discussion of JSTARS and where OpenVMS
    > plays a part.


    So let's see if I have this right. They can tell a bunch of
    foreigners all about an important military system but they
    can't use it for advertising? And people think "military
    intelligence" is an oxymoron. I'll bet they even told the
    French. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  5. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86


    "Bob Koehler" wrote in message
    news:v9kmmM2pMJof@eisner.encompasserve.org...
    > In article <480f4afe$0$31175$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei

    writes:
    >
    > > Not asking stuff specific to JSTARs: Are there any concerns about hard
    > > disk drives being used in aircraft, especially military ones that may be
    > > called to make "interesting "manoeuvers that create a couple of Gs or go
    > > through turbulence etc ?

    >
    > I doubt JSTARS or other large military aircraft go though any
    > maneuvers that your laptop can't survive, but I'm not so sure
    > about fighters. A couple of Gs, whether from turbulence or other,
    > should not be a problem for a laptop drive. I know I've done worse
    > to my laptop.
    >
    > I do know that we've looked at using laptop drives for space flight.
    > Some company buys lots of laptop drives and qualifies them to see
    > which will make it. I don't know of anyone who's actually done it.
    >


    Better not tell that to Raytheon, who were (are?) responsible for the
    flight-ready militarised Alphastations and GS320s which were (are?) used in
    the JSTARS project (see e.g.
    http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jstars/). Neither Raytheon's
    suppliers nor their customers would be impressed if their expensive on-board
    kit could trivially be replaced by off the shelf stuff from DECdirect or
    whatever. Apart from the fact that your average datacentre doesn't move very
    much (earthquakes excepted), and the power supply quality on-aircraft vs
    in-datacentre, there's also the small matter of the temperature variations
    on an aircraft (with not much aircon) vs the typical datacentre environment.

    But that's perilously close to RAS, and that would be On Topic, so I'm outta
    here (for now).



  6. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <480f4afe$0$31175$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:

    > Not asking stuff specific to JSTARs: Are there any concerns about hard
    > disk drives being used in aircraft, especially military ones that may be
    > called to make "interesting "manoeuvers that create a couple of Gs or go
    > through turbulence etc ?


    I doubt JSTARS or other large military aircraft go though any
    maneuvers that your laptop can't survive, but I'm not so sure
    about fighters. A couple of Gs, whether from turbulence or other,
    should not be a problem for a laptop drive. I know I've done worse
    to my laptop.

    I do know that we've looked at using laptop drives for space flight.
    Some company buys lots of laptop drives and qualifies them to see
    which will make it. I don't know of anyone who's actually done it.


  7. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <6795a6F2npagmU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >
    > When I am not on active duty I do my military duty in Gettysburg. Perkins
    > is the only place open early enough and with service fast enough for me to
    > have breakfast before I have to report to work. And I am definitely a
    > breakfast person. Of course, a Denny's would be better. :-) Now we
    > can start a new thread on where to eat when yu are in the middle of nowhere.
    >


    I don't recall whether it's at the end of Ivanson or Grand, but its
    on the corner of First Street, on your left as you face the tracks.
    And they close at about 6:00, so no late dinners for you flatlanders.

    Identifying the town is today's challenge.

    Perkins and Denny's can't touch the quality of the food.


  8. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article <6795a6F2npagmU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>
    >> When I am not on active duty I do my military duty in Gettysburg. Perkins
    >> is the only place open early enough and with service fast enough for me to
    >> have breakfast before I have to report to work. And I am definitely a
    >> breakfast person. Of course, a Denny's would be better. :-) Now we
    >> can start a new thread on where to eat when yu are in the middle of nowhere.
    >>

    >
    > I don't recall whether it's at the end of Ivanson or Grand, but its
    > on the corner of First Street, on your left as you face the tracks.
    > And they close at about 6:00, so no late dinners for you flatlanders.
    >
    > Identifying the town is today's challenge.


    The location sounds like Lovejoy's in Laramie, WY.

    >
    > Perkins and Denny's can't touch the quality of the food.


    They are fine for bacon and eggs.

    bill


    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  9. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <679r0hF2nr54pU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >In article ,
    > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    >> In article <6795a6F2npagmU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>>
    >>> When I am not on active duty I do my military duty in Gettysburg. Perkins
    >>> is the only place open early enough and with service fast enough for me to
    >>> have breakfast before I have to report to work. And I am definitely a
    >>> breakfast person. Of course, a Denny's would be better. :-) Now we
    >>> can start a new thread on where to eat when yu are in the middle of nowhere.
    >>>

    >>
    >> I don't recall whether it's at the end of Ivanson or Grand, but its
    >> on the corner of First Street, on your left as you face the tracks.
    >> And they close at about 6:00, so no late dinners for you flatlanders.
    >>
    >> Identifying the town is today's challenge.

    >
    >The location sounds like Lovejoy's in Laramie, WY.
    >
    >>
    >> Perkins and Denny's can't touch the quality of the food.

    >
    >They are fine for bacon and eggs.


    ....but no scrapple!

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  10. RE: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: April 23, 2008 9:16 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86
    >
    > someone wrote:
    >
    > >>> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/pr...4/040324a.html
    > >>> HP awarded $784 Million Services Contract by Department of Veteran

    > Affairs
    >
    >
    > OK, I stand somewhat corrected. This is a 10 year deal. So there are 6
    > more years left to this particular deal.
    >
    > However,if someome trying to point at how healthy a product is, can
    > only
    > point to 4 year old press releases, it generally means that there
    > hasn't
    > been much success since then and that the product is just riding on
    > existing contracts without much new business.
    >


    Point was in previous reference to VA and OpenVMS content. Had nothing to
    do with current references.

    Lots of other more current references and video testimonials have been
    posted in comp.os.vms in recent months.

    > I wonder if that deal provides for Alpha system upgrades/additions
    > throughout the life of the contract.


    Don't know, but typically this is the case with any long term deal.



    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  11. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <6794vnF2npagmU1@mid.individual.net>,
    billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

    > It's "das Boot", not "das boat". So, anyone remember the movie of the
    > same name? :-)


    Yes, and if you understand it, the German version of "Das Boot" is
    better than the English one.

    --
    Paul Sture

    Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
    http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~stu...bookmarks.html

  12. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    Bob Koehler wrote:

    > I believe the only VAX flown on the shuttle used RAM drives. It was
    > derived from a commercially available ruggedized VAX. And yes, its
    > publically known that it was running VMS.



    It wasn't publically known... "Publically" implies marketing :-)

    The information was available to those who were interested in VMS.

    Microsoft need not do any publicity about its software being used on the
    shuttle and station. Anyone listening to the NASA feeds will often hear
    about the problems the crew are experiencing with Windows, so Microsoft
    gets free publicity :-) :-) :-) :-)

    The laptops on the station are from IBM. The ones used for station
    control run Solaris. The rest run Windows. Vibration/G forces are less
    of an issue on the station, but cosmic radiation is an issue.

  13. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <4qmdnepmp80sBJLVnZ2dnUVZ8uidnZ2d@plusnet>, "John Wallace" writes:
    >
    > Better not tell that to Raytheon, who were (are?) responsible for the
    > flight-ready militarised Alphastations and GS320s which were (are?) used in
    > the JSTARS project (see e.g.
    > http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jstars/).


    Off the shelf laptop drives do not meet many of the requirements of
    military or space (or both) use. They're just a possible starting
    point for dealing with shock load requirements.

    I believe the only VAX flown on the shuttle used RAM drives. It was
    derived from a commercially available ruggedized VAX. And yes, its
    publically known that it was running VMS.


  14. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <679r0hF2nr54pU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >
    > The location sounds like Lovejoy's in Laramie, WY.


    I don't recall the name of the resaurant, but order the Boston pecan
    pie next time your in Laramie.


  15. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    "P. Sture" writes:

    > Yes, and if you understand it, the German version of "Das Boot" is
    > better than the English one.


    Which -- with some notable exceptions (X-Files, anyone?) -- ties quite
    nicely into the notion that consuming original material is usually the
    better choice :-)


    Sebastian

  16. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article ,
    > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    >> In article <6718lhF2m4eapU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >>> Somebody tell me again how DOD is one of VMS's biggest customers!

    >> I'm, sorry, we were unable to ascertain need to know.

    >
    > This red herring is getting as tired as Kerry's "5-20 patches" mantra.
    > How many times do I have to tell you, I am on the inside. I am an
    > Information Systems Technician Warrant Officer. I and my peers are
    > "the subject matter experts" when it comes to information systems. My
    > unit is part of DISA who approves and certifies all AIS's in DOD.
    > All that being said, I have yet to run into any of my peers who has
    > ever seen a DOD VMS system. (Yes, I do ask them!) I deal with people
    > at the top of the AIS policy ladder and have specifically offered my
    > services if they had need for someone with VMS experience. To this
    > point I have not been called upon for even one case of needed VMS
    > assistance. I know there are still VMS systems in existance. But they
    > appear to be the very best examples of legacy systems. They run one
    > or two fixed programs. They see no new development and very limited
    > maintenance (probably due to a fear that anything done may result in
    > breaking the running application.) If this describes "VMS's biggest
    > customer" then things are a lot worse off than people here realize.


    I am personally aware of more than 100 VMS systems within the DoD. They
    have their own staff taking care of them. It is unlikely that you will
    ever hear of them. The DoD is very large and everyone does NOT talk to
    everyone else.

    Mark Berryman

  17. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article <4810a6c1$0$12290$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    >
    >> I believe the only VAX flown on the shuttle used RAM drives. It was
    >> derived from a commercially available ruggedized VAX. And yes, its
    >> publically known that it was running VMS.

    >
    >
    > It wasn't publically known... "Publically" implies marketing :-)


    It wasn't publicized, which would imply marketing, but it is
    publically available information.

    > The laptops on the station are from IBM. The ones used for station
    > control run Solaris. The rest run Windows. Vibration/G forces are less
    > of an issue on the station, but cosmic radiation is an issue.


    I think the consoles in Houston are still Alphas running Tru64.


  18. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:02:36 -0700, FredK wrote:

    >
    > "John Reagan" wrote in message
    > news:fukt68$jic$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
    >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> A few years ago is right. Fielded in 1991, approved for production in
    >>> 1996,
    >>> last system delivered in 2005. A total of 8 systems. There is much
    >>> more
    >>> information about the airframe than anything else and
    >>> no mention of VMS at all. I wonder if it has been ported to Windows
    >>> yet?
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> A NG employee gave a keynote address at last year's OpenVMS Technical
    >> Bootcamp on JSTARS. The non-disclosure prevents me from giving details
    >> from the talk (which itself was very high level) plus I'd probably
    >> remember incorrectly anyway.
    >>

    >
    > JSTARS has been running on VMS since 1991 and the prototype plane was
    > called
    > into service during Gulf War I - if you remember the prop behind Gen
    > Swartzcropf in the "mother of all retreats" - that was from JSTARS.
    >
    > Originally on VAX and ruggedized DEC3000 (Flamingo) systems, it migrated
    > to
    > modified AlphaServer ES40s (form factor modification and power supply).
    > Each aircraft (Boeing 707s) contains 20 ES40s. There are 17 production
    > aircraft plus backups and test. Plus training and ground stations.
    >
    > http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jstars/
    >
    > Provides a high level overview of the E8. As will a Google search on
    > "Northrop Grumman JSTARS"
    >
    > JSTARS remains an active and evolving program.
    >
    > All of the above can be gleaned from public materials.
    >
    >

    Fred, do you what language they used for their code? One would,
    absent any other data, assume Ada, but Northrup Grumman was a
    PL/I user.


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  19. OT - good restaurants (was:Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86)

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <679r0hF2nr54pU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >> The location sounds like Lovejoy's in Laramie, WY.

    >
    > I don't recall the name of the resaurant, but order the Boston pecan
    > pie next time your in Laramie.


    OK - what makes it a "Boston" pecan pie? Made by two unrelated women
    who live together? :-)


  20. Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86

    In article ,
    koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
    > In article <4810a6c1$0$12290$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >> Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>
    >>> I believe the only VAX flown on the shuttle used RAM drives. It was
    >>> derived from a commercially available ruggedized VAX. And yes, its
    >>> publically known that it was running VMS.

    >>
    >>
    >> It wasn't publically known... "Publically" implies marketing :-)

    >
    > It wasn't publicized, which would imply marketing, but it is
    > publically available information.
    >
    >> The laptops on the station are from IBM. The ones used for station
    >> control run Solaris. The rest run Windows. Vibration/G forces are less
    >> of an issue on the station, but cosmic radiation is an issue.

    >
    > I think the consoles in Houston are still Alphas running Tru64.


    What, not VMS? What were they thinking?

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

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