OT: Need HTML Help - VMS

This is a discussion on OT: Need HTML Help - VMS ; Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line about building web pages by hand (in a text editor). How to de-mung the reply-to should be obvious. David J Dachtera (formerly dba) DJE Systems...

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  1. OT: Need HTML Help

    Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    How to de-mung the reply-to should be obvious.

    David J Dachtera
    (formerly dba) DJE Systems

  2. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    > about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).


    Any special needs ?

    Most people write HTML with a text editor. And there must be
    a bazillion guides out there.

    Pure HTML ? With CSS ? With CSS and JavaScript ?

    I think you will have better chance of attracting the right
    skills if you describe in more detail what you need.

    Arne

  3. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    > about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).



    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ is the referenbce for real HTML. That site
    also has stuff about XHTML.


    For style sheets,
    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1


  4. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:44:47 -0700, Arne Vajh°j wrote:

    > David J Dachtera wrote:
    >> Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    >> about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    >
    > Any special needs ?
    >
    > Most people write HTML with a text editor. And there must be
    > a bazillion guides out there.
    >
    > Pure HTML ? With CSS ? With CSS and JavaScript ?
    >
    > I think you will have better chance of attracting the right
    > skills if you describe in more detail what you need.
    >
    > Arne


    Find some pages you like, copy them and figure it out from there, that is
    what
    I do, pretty easy stuff.


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  5. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    JF Mezei wrote:
    >
    > David J Dachtera wrote:
    > > Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    > > about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    >
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ is the referenbce for real HTML. That site
    > also has stuff about XHTML.
    >
    > For style sheets,
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1


    Thanx, JF!

    I think I can get what I'm looking for from that first link.

    I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    +----------+-------------------------------+
    | Button 1 | |
    +----------+ |
    | Button 2 | |
    +----------+ |
    | Button 3 | |
    +----------+ |
    | Button 4 | |
    +----------+ |
    | Button 5 | |
    +----------+-------------------------------+

    My first thought was to use a table, but I didn't know how to force the
    asymmetry between the two columns: five rows in one column, one row in
    the second column.

    Let me see what I can figure out...

    David J Dachtera
    (formerly dba) DJE Systems

  6. Re: OT: Need HTML Help



    David J Dachtera wrote:

    > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > | Button 1 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 2 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 3 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 4 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 5 | |
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    >

    See attached:

    Jeff C.


  7. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 7:55 PM, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > JF Mezei wrote:
    > >
    > > David J Dachtera wrote:
    > > > Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    > > > about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    > >

    >
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ is the referenbce for real HTML. That site
    > > also has stuff about XHTML.
    > >
    > > For style sheets,
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1

    >
    > Thanx, JF!
    >
    > I think I can get what I'm looking for from that first link.
    >
    > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > | Button 1 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 2 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 3 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 4 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 5 | |
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    >


    I would use CSS for this. See (do a
    show source to see how I did it.)

    Ken

  8. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    In article <4805406F.23F81A77@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes:
    >JF Mezei wrote:
    >>
    >> David J Dachtera wrote:
    >> > Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    >> > about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    >>
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ is the referenbce for real HTML. That site
    >> also has stuff about XHTML.
    >>
    >> For style sheets,
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1

    >
    >Thanx, JF!
    >
    >I think I can get what I'm looking for from that first link.
    >
    >I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    >+----------+-------------------------------+
    >| Button 1 | |
    >+----------+ |
    >| Button 2 | |
    >+----------+ |
    >| Button 3 | |
    >+----------+ |
    >| Button 4 | |
    >+----------+ |
    >| Button 5 | |
    >+----------+-------------------------------+
    >
    >My first thought was to use a table, but I didn't know how to force the
    >asymmetry between the two columns: five rows in one column, one row in
    >the second column.
    >
    >Let me see what I can figure out...



    Check out "colspan" and "rowspan".

    -- ALan


  9. RE: OT: Need HTML Help

    >...
    > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > | Button 1 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 2 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 3 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 4 | |
    > +----------+ |
    > | Button 5 | |
    > +----------+-------------------------------+
    >
    > My first thought was to use a table, but I didn't know how to
    > force the asymmetry between the two columns: five rows in one
    > column, one row in the second column.
    >...


    That is basically what I do on my site; www.weaverconsulting.ca.
    I use a table, I am not sure if I am doing this the best way
    possible, but it seems to work with every browser I tested.
    (DUCK!!!)

    Behind the scene I use a couple of PHP routines to build the
    buttons on the left hand side and to end the table. If I decide
    to add some new pages I just have to create the new page, create
    two button GIF files and add the new a new line to the $links
    array. The new menu item will then be on every page in my site as
    soon as I save the .PHP file.

    $links = array(
    "index.html" => "Home",
    "charon-vax.html" => "CHARON-VAX - VAX Virtualization",
    "charon-axp.html" => "CHARON-AXP - Alpha Virtualization",
    "datastream.html" => "DataStream - Console Management System",
    "precisemail.html" => "PreciseMail - Spam Filtering Software",
    "reflection.html" => "Attachmate Reflection - Terminal
    Emulator",
    "system_man.html" => "System Management - Full time, part
    time, per call",
    "other.html" => "Other Services",
    "about.html" => "About Us",
    "contact.html" => "Contact Us"
    );

    Peter Weaver
    www.weaverconsulting.ca www.openvmsvirtualization.com
    www.vaxvirtualization.com www.alphavirtualization.com


  10. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > JF Mezei wrote:
    >> David J Dachtera wrote:
    >>> Looking for someone who would be willing to correspond with me off-line
    >>> about building web pages by hand (in a text editor).

    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/ is the referenbce for real HTML. That site
    >> also has stuff about XHTML.
    >>
    >> For style sheets,
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1

    >
    > Thanx, JF!
    >
    > I think I can get what I'm looking for from that first link.
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > My first thought was to use a table, but I didn't know how to force the
    > asymmetry between the two columns: five rows in one column, one row in
    > the second column.
    >
    > Let me see what I can figure out...


    A better place to learn (x)html and css (and a bunch of other stuff) is
    (no affiliation).

    Unless you are accomplished at reading w3c specs, you will find learning
    from w3schools far easier.

    As mentioned else-thread, using css instead of tables is the way to go.
    Tables certainly have their uses, but they should be restricted to
    table data, not used for general page layout.

    Whatever you do, you should ensure that your (x)html and css is valid.
    It's easy, will ensure your site is visible in all forms of user agents,
    will go a long way to making your pages accessible to people with
    disabilities, and will more than likely increase your exposure in google
    and other search engines.

    Automated validators are available at the following links:

    html:
    css:

    Jim.
    --
    www.eight-cubed.com

  11. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    Jim Duff wrote:

    > As mentioned else-thread, using css instead of tables is the way to go.
    > Tables certainly have their uses, but they should be restricted to
    > table data, not used for general page layout.


    for some reason, "tables" have become to HTML what "goto" has become to
    programming languages. Frankly, there are situations where a table is
    far easier and simpler to use than some style sheets that require an
    inordinate amount of coding.

    In the case of his example with submit buttons on the left and content
    on the right, it would appear to me that a table is well suited. It
    isn't abusing the tables with multiply nested tables etc.





    > Whatever you do, you should ensure that your (x)html and css is valid.


    http://validator.w3.org


  12. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Jim Duff wrote:
    >
    >> As mentioned else-thread, using css instead of tables is the way to
    >> go. Tables certainly have their uses, but they should be
    >> restricted to table data, not used for general page layout.

    >
    > for some reason, "tables" have become to HTML what "goto" has become
    > to programming languages. Frankly, there are situations where a
    > table is far easier and simpler to use than some style sheets that
    > require an inordinate amount of coding.


    I agree that there are situations you should use the table tag as you
    have conveniently quoted above. I don't see the relationship between
    tables and goto. Each has its appropriate place and I've used both
    (I've even used a goto in a C program :-)

    >
    > In the case of his example with submit buttons on the left and
    > content on the right, it would appear to me that a table is well
    > suited. It isn't abusing the tables with multiply nested tables etc.
    >


    We don't really have enough info about what the OP is trying to design.
    The OP makes no mention of _submit_ buttons or of _content_. You're
    assuming that. For all we know, the button designation refers to simple
    anchor tags making up a menu, and the outline might be the browser
    outline. An unordered list and two positioned divs might be more
    appropriate if that's the case.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >> Whatever you do, you should ensure that your (x)html and css is
    >> valid.

    >
    > http://validator.w3.org
    >


    Editing my post to make it appear that I didn't link to the (x)html
    validator (and the css validator) is not appreciated.

    Jim.
    --
    www.eight-cubed.com

  13. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    On Apr 16, 2:00*am, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Jim Duff wrote:
    > > As mentioned else-thread, using css instead of tables is the way to go.
    > > * Tables certainly have their uses, but they should be restricted to
    > > table data, not used for general page layout.

    >
    > for some reason, "tables" have become to HTML what "goto" has become to
    > programming languages. Frankly, there are situations where a table is
    > far easier and simpler to use than some style sheets that require an
    > inordinate amount of coding.
    >
    > In the case of his example with submit buttons on the left and content
    > on the right, it would appear to me that a table is well suited. It
    > isn't abusing the tables with multiply nested tables etc.
    >
    > > Whatever you do, you should ensure that your (x)html and css is valid.

    >
    > http://validator.w3.org


    You are 100%. Whatever you do, make sure your pages are valid. I've
    seen non-compliant pages fail to get through some proxy servers
    depending upon the server's configuration settings.

    Always check your work in at least two browsers (IE + Firefox).
    Without a DOCTYPE, browsers render in "quirks mode" and the output is
    usually unredictable. The strict DOCTYPE declaration puts them in
    compliant mode so that they will usually render the same output (at
    least with IE 8 and FF 2). The Canadian government has already adopted
    one of the CLF (common look and feel) specs required for doing
    business in Europe. The spec name just escapes me for the moment.

    A few final points about the evolution of this technology. During the
    browser wars both Microsoft and Netscape introduced non-compliant
    tags. Since W3C couldn't get them to cooperate on fixing their various
    implementations, all non-compliant tags were dropped in strict HTML
    (and XHTML) so don't use things like FONT COLOR (or BORDER COLOR) when
    you should really be changing colors with a SPAN tag referencing a
    STYLE declared in the CSS area of the document HEAD.

    Why use STYLEs? When these pages hit a device without a fully
    implemented browser (Blackberry, PDA, Cell phone, JAWS (which is a
    browser for the blind)) the STYLEs are discarded. This is easier to do
    if the styles are all located in one place. It will also make your
    pages smaller (think of styles as sub-routines). Also, IFRAME, TABLE
    and BUTTON objects (tags) are not allowed in this new XHTML/CSS strict
    universe and I have seen them all implemented in CSS.

    p.s. Don't dismiss the JAWS/BlackBerry argument. Your problems will
    explode whenever your employer decides to employ a call center
    operator that is vision impaired =OR= the big boss wants to access
    some of your pages on his Blackberry (he will get the idea from one of
    his CEO buddies at the country club)

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...l_openvms.html
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/lin...vms_demos.html

  14. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote:
    >
    > David J Dachtera wrote:
    >
    > > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > > | Button 1 | |
    > > +----------+ |
    > > | Button 2 | |
    > > +----------+ |
    > > | Button 3 | |
    > > +----------+ |
    > > | Button 4 | |
    > > +----------+ |
    > > | Button 5 | |
    > > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > >

    > See attached:
    >
    > Jeff C.
    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    >


    Thanx, Jeff! Really pointed me in the right direction.

    For what I did with it, see my wife's up and coming website:
    http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/ and
    http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/index_live.html for the full site (not yet
    complete - the "home" links will take you back to the "under
    construction" page which has no links; so, use the browser's BACK button
    as needed).

    David J Dachtera
    (formerly dba) DJE Systems

  15. Re: OT: Need HTML Help



    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote:
    >> David J Dachtera wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    >>> +----------+-------------------------------+
    >>> | Button 1 | |
    >>> +----------+ |
    >>> | Button 2 | |
    >>> +----------+ |
    >>> | Button 3 | |
    >>> +----------+ |
    >>> | Button 4 | |
    >>> +----------+ |
    >>> | Button 5 | |
    >>> +----------+-------------------------------+
    >>>

    >> See attached:
    >>
    >> Jeff C.
    >>
    >> ---------------------------------------------------------------
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Thanx, Jeff! Really pointed me in the right direction.
    >
    > For what I did with it, see my wife's up and coming website:
    > http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/ and
    > http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/index_live.html for the full site (not yet
    > complete - the "home" links will take you back to the "under
    > construction" page which has no links; so, use the browser's BACK button
    > as needed).
    >
    > David J Dachtera
    > (formerly dba) DJE Systems

    Glad to help

    Jeff C.

  16. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    On Apr 25, 10:35*am, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote:
    >
    > > David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > > > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > > > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > > > | Button 1 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > | Button 2 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > | Button 3 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > | Button 4 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > | Button 5 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > +----------+-------------------------------+

    >
    > > See attached:

    >
    > > Jeff C.

    >
    > > * * ---------------------------------------------------------------

    >
    > Thanx, Jeff! Really pointed me in the right direction.
    >
    > For what I did with it, see my wife's up and coming website:http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/andhtt...x_live.htmlfor the fullsite (not yet
    > complete - the "home" links will take you back to the "under
    > construction" page which has no links; so, use the browser's BACK button
    > as needed).
    >
    > David J Dachtera
    > (formerly dba) DJE Systems- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    This is quite impressive considering you used a plain text editor.
    :-)
    I took the liberty of dumping your HTML into the validator here:

    http://validator.w3.org/check

    ... and was presented a report containing 27 errors.

    Many people don't think validation is necessary but if you want the
    page to be renedered the same way in all browsers, then you've got to
    do this.

    p.s. many of my own business and personal web pages are non-compliant
    but I'm slowly getting things converted over. I recently discovered
    that a page which isn't missing too many closing tags can use the TIDY
    option in the link I provided. TIDY is a tool which allows GARBAGE-IN
    to result in NON-GARBAGE-OUT.

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/



  17. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    Neil Rieck wrote:
    >
    > On Apr 25, 10:35 am, David J Dachtera
    > wrote:
    > > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote:
    > >
    > > > David J Dachtera wrote:

    > >
    > > > > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > > > > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > > > > | Button 1 | |
    > > > > +----------+ |
    > > > > | Button 2 | |
    > > > > +----------+ |
    > > > > | Button 3 | |
    > > > > +----------+ |
    > > > > | Button 4 | |
    > > > > +----------+ |
    > > > > | Button 5 | |
    > > > > +----------+-------------------------------+

    > >
    > > > See attached:

    > >
    > > > Jeff C.

    > >
    > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------

    > >
    > > Thanx, Jeff! Really pointed me in the right direction.
    > >
    > > For what I did with it, see my wife's up and coming website:http://www.fourpawsandfur.com/andhtt...x_live.htmlfor the full site (not yet
    > > complete - the "home" links will take you back to the "under
    > > construction" page which has no links; so, use the browser's BACK button
    > > as needed).
    > >
    > > David J Dachtera
    > > (formerly dba) DJE Systems- Hide quoted text -
    > >
    > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > This is quite impressive considering you used a plain text editor.
    > :-)
    > I took the liberty of dumping your HTML into the validator here:
    >
    > http://validator.w3.org/check
    >
    > ... and was presented a report containing 27 errors.
    >
    > Many people don't think validation is necessary but if you want the
    > page to be renedered the same way in all browsers, then you've got to
    > do this.
    >
    > p.s. many of my own business and personal web pages are non-compliant
    > but I'm slowly getting things converted over. I recently discovered
    > that a page which isn't missing too many closing tags can use the TIDY
    > option in the link I provided. TIDY is a tool which allows GARBAGE-IN
    > to result in NON-GARBAGE-OUT.


    Hhmmm... interesting ... however, "Tidy" makes some brash and not
    necessarily valid assumptions. For all of the complaints from Validator,
    I'd have to go back and clean up Tidy's "mess".

    D.J.D.

  18. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    David J Dachtera wrote:

    > Hhmmm... interesting ... however, "Tidy" makes some brash and not
    > necessarily valid assumptions. For all of the complaints from Validator,
    > I'd have to go back and clean up Tidy's "mess".



    Would you put into production for mission critical code that doesn't
    compile cleanly ?

    If your HTML doesn't pass through the validator, it shouldn't be put
    into production.

  19. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    On Apr 25, 11:19*pm, David J Dachtera
    wrote:
    > Neil Rieck wrote:
    >
    > > On Apr 25, 10:35 am, David J Dachtera
    > > wrote:
    > > > "Jeffrey H. Coffield" wrote:

    >
    > > > > David J Dachtera wrote:

    >
    > > > > > I'm looking for a way to do something like this:
    > > > > > +----------+-------------------------------+
    > > > > > | Button 1 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > | Button 2 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > | Button 3 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > | Button 4 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > +----------+ * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > | Button 5 | * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * |
    > > > > > +----------+-------------------------------+

    >
    > > > > See attached:

    >
    > > > > Jeff C.

    >
    > > > > * * ---------------------------------------------------------------

    >
    > > > Thanx, Jeff! Really pointed me in the right direction.

    >
    > > > For what I did with it, see my wife's up and coming website:http://www..fourpawsandfur.com/andht...m/index_...the full site (not yet
    > > > complete - the "home" links will take you back to the "under
    > > > construction" page which has no links; so, use the browser's BACK button
    > > > as needed).

    >
    > > > David J Dachtera
    > > > (formerly dba) DJE Systems- Hide quoted text -

    >
    > > > - Show quoted text -

    >
    > > This is quite impressive considering you used a plain text editor.
    > > * :-)
    > > I took the liberty of dumping your HTML into the validator here:

    >
    > > *http://validator.w3.org/check

    >
    > > ... and was presented a report containing 27 errors.

    >
    > > Many people don't think validation is necessary but if you want the
    > > page to be renedered the same way in all browsers, then you've got to
    > > do this.

    >
    > > p.s. many of my own business and personal web pages are non-compliant
    > > but I'm slowly getting things converted over. I recently discovered
    > > that a page which isn't missing too many closing tags can use the TIDY
    > > option in the link I provided. TIDY is a tool which allows GARBAGE-IN
    > > to result in NON-GARBAGE-OUT.

    >
    > Hhmmm... interesting ... however, "Tidy" makes some brash and not
    > necessarily valid assumptions. For all of the complaints from Validator,
    > I'd have to go back and clean up Tidy's "mess".
    >
    > D.J.D.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    Every once in a while the W3C version of TIDY goes berserk producing
    unusable results. But the syntax validator always works when flagging
    my typos or recommending alternatives.

    p.s. You can download a standalone version of HTML-TIDY from "source
    forge" but I've never tried it.

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/

  20. Re: OT: Need HTML Help

    Neil Rieck wrote:
    > p.s. You can download a standalone version of HTML-TIDY from "source
    > forge" but I've never tried it.


    It even runs on VMS.

    Or at least I have a HTMLTIDY program that runs on VMS
    and says:

    "Copyright (c) 1998-2002 World Wide Web Consortium"

    Arne

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