Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? - VMS

This is a discussion on Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ? - VMS ; Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives. Since the DS10L is also circa 1998/1999, does anyone know if it also has a disk size ...

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Thread: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

  1. Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.

    Since the DS10L is also circa 1998/1999, does anyone know if it also has
    a disk size limit for the IDE (now called ATA) interface ?

    Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware
    only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc).

  2. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    On 13 Apr 2008 at 4:37, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware
    > only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc).


    Don't know if it's "safe", but I have a DPWS 500au with a 200 GB disk that's been working
    fine for several years. It reports 268435455 blocks (131072 MB).

    --Stan Quayle
    Quayle Consulting Inc.

    ----------
    Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
    8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
    stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
    "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"



  3. Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?)

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    > ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.


    Why not use SCSI, instead?

    I've been using Seagate 73Gb drives in my SBB enclosures for a number of
    years now, with only one drive failure in all that time. Since my disks
    are shadowed, no loss of data.

    Once I get some spare cash, I'm going to start replacing the 73G with
    146G, just to see if they will work. A 146G, 10K RPM SCSI disk is
    selling on e-bay with a starting price of USD$55. Why go IDE?
    [...]

  4. Re: Why not SCSI?

    bradhamilton wrote:
    > JF Mezei wrote:
    >> Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    >> ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.

    >
    > Why not use SCSI, instead?
    >
    > I've been using Seagate 73Gb drives in my SBB enclosures for a number of
    > years now, with only one drive failure in all that time. Since my disks
    > are shadowed, no loss of data.
    >
    > Once I get some spare cash, I'm going to start replacing the 73G with
    > 146G, just to see if they will work. A 146G, 10K RPM SCSI disk is
    > selling on e-bay with a starting price of USD$55. Why go IDE?


    A DS10L comes with IDE but no SCSI if I remember correct.

    Arne

  5. Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?)

    bradhamilton writes:

    >JF Mezei wrote:
    >> Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    >> ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.


    >Why not use SCSI, instead?


    Unfortunately, a DS10L has exactly one slot. It has IDE built-in but not
    SCSI. If you use the slot for a SCSI controller, you can't put anything
    else in it, like a graphics board to use it as a workstation.

  6. Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?)

    On Apr 13, 1:25 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
    wrote:
    > bradhamilton writes:
    > >JF Mezei wrote:
    > >> Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    > >> ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.

    > >Why not use SCSI, instead?

    >
    > Unfortunately, a DS10L has exactly one slot. It has IDE built-in but not
    > SCSI. If you use the slot for a SCSI controller, you can't put anything
    > else in it, like a graphics board to use it as a workstation.


    Call your friend David at Island Computers. There is some kind of
    combination card available for these beasts. I bought a DS10 from him
    (don't know the model letter) and it is using both IDE and SCSI. I
    put the SCSI drives in an external enclosure I had.

    IDE is like watching ice melt in December on these things. It won't
    recognize any IDE drive larger than 120 Gig. I use my IDE drive for
    backup storage and run everything else on SCSI.

    The CD-ROM is IDE as well.


  7. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote:
    >
    > On 13 Apr 2008 at 4:37, JF Mezei wrote:
    > > Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware
    > > only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc).

    >
    > Don't know if it's "safe", but I have a DPWS 500au with a 200 GB disk that's been working
    > fine for several years. It reports 268435455 blocks (131072 MB).


    131072 / 1024 = 128(GB)

    David J Dachtera
    (formerly dba) DJE Systems

  8. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    David J Dachtera wrote:
    > "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote:
    >> Don't know if it's "safe", but I have a DPWS 500au with a 200 GB disk that's been working
    >> fine for several years. It reports 268435455 blocks (131072 MB).

    >
    > 131072 / 1024 = 128(GB)



    > $ df
    > Filesystem 512-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
    > /dev/disk0s10 268148736 120903128 146733608 45% /


    Interesting difference between 268435455 and 268148736 = 286719 blocks
    or roughly 139 megs.

    How much disk space would VMS reserve vs OS-X for its "partition" and
    boot blocks etc ? Could that amount to it ?

    Diskutil (GUI equivalent of DF) reports:

    128.0 GB (137,438,952,960 Bytes) for the actual hard drive
    127.9 GB (137,303,797,760 Bytes) for the OS-X partition (the only one)

    For the hard drive, the number of bytes / 512 gives the same number of
    blocks as quoted by Mr Quayle. So I guess OS-X wastes some disk space
    when partitioning the drive. Still, 139 megs is not an anount to sneeze at.


  9. Re: Why not SCSI? (was:Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?)

    It's a rare card called the 3x-depvz-aa

    permedia 2 4mb U2 scsi and ethernet 10/100

    We have one here and it is $750 !

    --
    David B Turner

    =============================================

    Island Computers US Corp
    PO Box 86
    Tybee GA 31328

    Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
    Email: dturner@islandco.com
    International: 001 706 993 1787
    Fax: 912 786 8505
    Web: www.islandco.com

    =============================================
    "yyyc186" wrote in message
    news:81735f30-054a-496b-b474-58f2efdf5d88@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
    > On Apr 13, 1:25 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney)
    > wrote:
    >> bradhamilton writes:
    >> >JF Mezei wrote:
    >> >> Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    >> >> ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.
    >> >Why not use SCSI, instead?

    >>
    >> Unfortunately, a DS10L has exactly one slot. It has IDE built-in but not
    >> SCSI. If you use the slot for a SCSI controller, you can't put anything
    >> else in it, like a graphics board to use it as a workstation.

    >
    > Call your friend David at Island Computers. There is some kind of
    > combination card available for these beasts. I bought a DS10 from him
    > (don't know the model letter) and it is using both IDE and SCSI. I
    > put the SCSI drives in an external enclosure I had.
    >
    > IDE is like watching ice melt in December on these things. It won't
    > recognize any IDE drive larger than 120 Gig. I use my IDE drive for
    > backup storage and run everything else on SCSI.
    >
    > The CD-ROM is IDE as well.
    >




  10. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    FYI I have about 300 30GB Compaq branded (maxtor oem) 7200RPM ide (ATA)
    disks
    If anyone wants them $15 each + shipping

    --
    David B Turner

    =============================================

    Island Computers US Corp
    PO Box 86
    Tybee GA 31328

    Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251
    Email: dturner@islandco.com
    International: 001 706 993 1787
    Fax: 912 786 8505
    Web: www.islandco.com

    =============================================
    "JF Mezei" wrote in message
    news:e2e68$4801c652$cef8887a$19031@TEKSAVVY.COM...
    > Just found out that some/many circa 1999 machines have IDE (now called
    > ATA) interfaces that only see the first 128 gigs of drives.
    >
    > Since the DS10L is also circa 1998/1999, does anyone know if it also has
    > a disk size limit for the IDE (now called ATA) interface ?
    >
    > Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware
    > only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc).




  11. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Stanley F. Quayle wrote:
    > On 13 Apr 2008 at 4:37, JF Mezei wrote:
    >> Can anyone confirm that it is safe to put a larger disk if the hardware
    >> only reports 128 gigs available ? (aka, won't overwrite data etc).

    >
    > Don't know if it's "safe", but I have a DPWS 500au with a 200 GB disk that's been working
    > fine for several years. It reports 268435455 blocks (131072 MB).
    >
    > --Stan Quayle
    > Quayle Consulting Inc.


    Can you put more than 127G on it, or are the blocks reported the only
    ones you get?

  12. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    On 17 Apr 2008 at 11:27, Marty Kuhrt wrote:
    > Can you put more than 127G on it, or are the blocks reported the only
    > ones you get?


    It's a 200 GB disk, but VMS shows only the 127 GB. Here are the complete details:

    $ sh dev/full dqa1

    Disk FAST$DQA1:, device type Maxtor 4G160J8, is online, mounted, file-oriented
    device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging is
    enabled.

    Error count 0 Operations completed 1493
    Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM]
    Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W
    Reference count 1 Default buffer size 512
    Total blocks 268435455 Sectors per track 128
    Total cylinders 16384 Tracks per cylinder 128
    Logical Volume Size 268435455 Expansion Size Limit 271589376

    Volume label "VMS_DIST" Relative volume number 0
    Cluster size 258 Transaction count 1
    Free blocks 46469928 Maximum files allowed 518215
    Extend quantity 5 Mount count 1
    Mount status System Cache name "_FAST$DKA100:XQPCACHE"
    Extent cache size 64 Maximum blocks in extent cache 4646992
    File ID cache size 64 Blocks in extent cache 7998
    Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache 4600
    Volume owner UIC [CRISP] Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD

    Volume Status: ODS-2, subject to mount verification, write-back caching
    enabled.
    --Stan Quayle
    Quayle Consulting Inc.

    ----------
    Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX
    8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA
    stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html
    "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option"



  13. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    In article <4809FAB2.11578.3450A2A@infovax.stanq.com>, "Stanley F. Quayle" writes:
    >On 17 Apr 2008 at 11:27, Marty Kuhrt wrote:
    >> Can you put more than 127G on it, or are the blocks reported the only
    >> ones you get?

    >
    >It's a 200 GB disk, but VMS shows only the 127 GB. Here are the complete details:
    >
    >$ sh dev/full dqa1
    >
    >Disk FAST$DQA1:, device type Maxtor 4G160J8, is online, mounted, file-oriented


    That seems to be a MAXTOR Diamond Max 160GB (not 200GB) disk (which I also had).

    My pair (yes, both) died shortly after I put DNEWS on the disk (the first
    died - in the first month - the day after I started running DNEWS on it,
    the second disk died - in the last month of the 3y warranty - 2 days after
    I started running DNEWS on it). They may work well as data cemeteries for
    years, but if you use them just like SCSI disks, they die almost immediately.

    --
    Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
    Network and OpenVMS system specialist
    E-mail peter@langstoeger.at
    A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist

  14. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER wrote:
    >
    > My pair (yes, both) died shortly after I put DNEWS on the disk (the first
    > died - in the first month - the day after I started running DNEWS on it,
    > the second disk died - in the last month of the 3y warranty - 2 days after
    > I started running DNEWS on it). They may work well as data cemeteries for
    > years, but if you use them just like SCSI disks, they die almost immediately.


    My guess is that the IDE disks are more sensitive to heat, so if you do
    not have good ventilation on them, or are in a warmer room, you can
    expect a higher failure rate.

    As I understand the issue, accessing the IDE devices past the 127 GB
    limit requires putting the device in UDMA mode. UDMA mode has stricter
    cabling requirements than DMA mode. I have seen DS10s with UDMA cables
    and ones with normal DMA cables. My DS10 at home has a UDMA cable.

    HP never qualified UDMA mode on the Alpha Servers with built in IDE
    controllers, as production of Alpha Servers is over, I do not expect it
    to happen.

    It is possible that a hobbyist or a third party may supply a DQDRIVER
    that will support larger IDE drives, but I would not count on that.
    It takes quite a bit of tests to really qualify a disk driver.

    And it appears with IDE disk devices that they have programmable
    settings, which are negotiated between the driver an the device. As
    with SCSI, particularly early SCSI, not all devices negotiate in good
    faith. So some disks will work and some will not.

    -John
    wb8tyw@qsl.network
    Personal Opinion Only


  15. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Stanley F. Quayle wrote:
    > On 17 Apr 2008 at 11:27, Marty Kuhrt wrote:
    >> Can you put more than 127G on it, or are the blocks reported the only
    >> ones you get?

    >
    > It's a 200 GB disk, but VMS shows only the 127 GB. Here are the complete details:
    >
    > $ sh dev/full dqa1
    >
    > Disk FAST$DQA1:, device type Maxtor 4G160J8, is online, mounted, file-oriented
    > device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging is
    > enabled.
    >
    > Error count 0 Operations completed 1493
    > Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM]
    > Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W
    > Reference count 1 Default buffer size 512
    > Total blocks 268435455 Sectors per track 128
    > Total cylinders 16384 Tracks per cylinder 128
    > Logical Volume Size 268435455 Expansion Size Limit 271589376
    >
    > Volume label "VMS_DIST" Relative volume number 0
    > Cluster size 258 Transaction count 1
    > Free blocks 46469928 Maximum files allowed 518215
    > Extend quantity 5 Mount count 1
    > Mount status System Cache name "_FAST$DKA100:XQPCACHE"
    > Extent cache size 64 Maximum blocks in extent cache 4646992
    > File ID cache size 64 Blocks in extent cache 7998
    > Quota cache size 0 Maximum buffers in FCP cache 4600
    > Volume owner UIC [CRISP] Vol Prot S:RWCD,O:RWCD,G:RWCD,W:RWCD



    This appears to be a common limitation in older IDE host bus adapters.
    Sun Microsystems IDE controllers share this limitation, often to the
    amazement of their customers. It was not until the last three or four
    years that IDE drives big enough to reveal this limitation existed.

    Truly modern hardware; e.g. any PC of recent manufacture, can support
    drives of 300 GB or more!

  16. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > Truly modern hardware; e.g. any PC of recent manufacture, can support
    > drives of 300 GB or more!


    750 GB and 1 TB disks are out there.

    Arne


  17. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >> Truly modern hardware; e.g. any PC of recent manufacture, can support
    >> drives of 300 GB or more!

    >
    > 750 GB and 1 TB disks are out there.
    >
    > Arne
    >


    Far in excess of my modest needs, and probably my budget as well!

  18. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >>> Truly modern hardware; e.g. any PC of recent manufacture, can support
    >>> drives of 300 GB or more!

    >>
    >> 750 GB and 1 TB disks are out there.

    >
    > Far in excess of my modest needs, and probably my budget as well!


    You can buy a 750 GB SATA disk for 140 USD.

    Not super cheap but I will not call it expensive.

    Arne

  19. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    "John E. Malmberg" writes:

    >As I understand the issue, accessing the IDE devices past the 127 GB
    >limit requires putting the device in UDMA mode. UDMA mode has stricter
    >cabling requirements than DMA mode. I have seen DS10s with UDMA cables
    >and ones with normal DMA cables. My DS10 at home has a UDMA cable.


    >HP never qualified UDMA mode on the Alpha Servers with built in IDE
    >controllers, as production of Alpha Servers is over, I do not expect it
    >to happen.


    It also requires driver changes, to use different transfer modes to access
    the higher blocks.

    >It is possible that a hobbyist or a third party may supply a DQDRIVER
    >that will support larger IDE drives, but I would not count on that.
    >It takes quite a bit of tests to really qualify a disk driver.


    I started looking at doing this to keep my skills up but didn't get hardly
    anywhere. (I once did disk driver work for VMS Engineering). I would
    have to start with the rather out-of-date DQDRIVER source on the freeware.
    I also heard (apparently incorrectly) that VMS Engineering was going to
    upgrade DQDRIVER themselves, and quit then.

    >And it appears with IDE disk devices that they have programmable
    >settings, which are negotiated between the driver an the device. As
    >with SCSI, particularly early SCSI, not all devices negotiate in good
    >faith. So some disks will work and some will not.


    That also depends on exactly what chips are used are used with the DS10(L)
    and other IDE-aware alphas. An add-on PCI board should take care of that
    if necessary.

  20. Re: Maximum IDE disk size for DS10L ?

    Marty Kuhrt wrote:

    > While HP engineers understood how to update the DQDRIVER to handle the
    > 48 bit addressing necessary to get past 128G, they could not get the OK
    > to validate it.


    On the MaC side, the OS drivers support bigger IDE disks, but my old
    mAc's hardware doesn't. (or so I was told)

    Would it really make a difference if they upgraded the DQDRIVER to
    support 48 bits if the hardware didn't support it ?

    Or is this an issue similar to the Vaxstation 3100 where only the first
    disk is stuck with the limit, and subsequent drives have greater
    independance from the hardware and can support bigger disks ?

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