Php invented by a former DECcie ? - VMS

This is a discussion on Php invented by a former DECcie ? - VMS ; Hello Pals, Long time no noise :-) I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine English word ???) with DCL. Does anyone know if the Folk who created this language used to work for ...

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Thread: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

  1. Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Hello Pals,

    Long time no noise :-)

    I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    English word ???) with DCL.

    Does anyone know if the Folk who created this language used to work
    for DEC before?

    Just to ask.

    Bye for know, I'm studying variables substitution...

    DTL

  2. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Didier_Toulouse
    wrote:
    > Hello Pals,
    >
    > Long time no noise :-)
    >
    > I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    > English word ???) with DCL.


    PHP is more like C than DCL

    Ken

  3. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Didier_Toulouse wrote:
    > Hello Pals,
    >
    > Long time no noise :-)
    >
    > I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    > English word ???) with DCL.
    >
    > Does anyone know if the Folk who created this language used to work
    > for DEC before?
    >
    > Just to ask.
    >
    > Bye for know, I'm studying variables substitution...
    >
    > DTL


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Php has lots of info. Nothing hints at a
    DEC or DCL past.


    --
    John Reagan
    OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader
    Hewlett-Packard Company

  4. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    In article <7dd80f60804071310q46eb50edn7f9547a235bfb67c@mail.g mail.com>,
    "Ken Robinson" writes:
    > On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Didier_Toulouse
    > wrote:
    >> Hello Pals,
    >>
    >> Long time no noise :-)
    >>
    >> I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    >> English word ???) with DCL.

    >
    > PHP is more like C than DCL


    PHP is more like a steaming, stinking pile of dung than any usable
    computer programming language.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  5. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Didier_Toulouse wrote:
    > I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    > English word ???) with DCL.
    >
    > Does anyone know if the Folk who created this language used to work
    > for DEC before?


    Rasmus Lerdorf has as far as I know never worked for DEC.

    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmus_Lerdorf)

    Its two main influencers are C and Perl.

    But the entire family of dynamical typed languages
    (PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby etc.) do share some basic
    concepts with DCL. And no surprise - they have been
    designed to be easy and fast to use.

    Arne

  6. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > PHP is more like a steaming, stinking pile of dung than any usable
    > computer programming language.


    Within its intended area of usage it is actually an OK language.

    It is possible to write quite well structured code using PHP.

    PHP' bad reputation comes mostly from the fact that 14 year olds
    can write pretty feature rich web apps in it - and did so. And even
    though the result looked very good for the end user, then programmers
    tasked with maintaining and extending it got a nightmare.

    Arne

  7. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Didier_Toulouse wrote:
    > I'm learning Php,


    Be sure to learn PHP properly: PHP5, OOP, mysqli not mysql (or even
    better PDO), DOM not DOM XML, various Pear etc..

    Arne

  8. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    In article <47fac881$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    >Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> PHP is more like a steaming, stinking pile of dung than any usable
    >> computer programming language.

    >
    >Within its intended area of usage it is actually an OK language.
    >
    >It is possible to write quite well structured code using PHP.
    >
    >PHP' bad reputation comes mostly from the fact that 14 year olds
    >can write pretty feature rich web apps in it - and did so. And even
    >though the result looked very good for the end user, then programmers
    >tasked with maintaining and extending it got a nightmare.


    ....as I've learned in the past few days. I've been mopping up while some
    script kiddies continue to pull the equivalent of the Mr. Creosote cyber-
    style on some web sites. It's not been a fun 4 or 5 days.


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  9. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    On 2008-04-07, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >
    > Within its intended area of usage it is actually an OK language.
    >
    > It is possible to write quite well structured code using PHP.
    >
    > PHP' bad reputation comes mostly from the fact that 14 year olds
    > can write pretty feature rich web apps in it - and did so. And even
    > though the result looked very good for the end user, then programmers
    > tasked with maintaining and extending it got a nightmare.
    >


    AIUI, it's not so much the fact that it's a easy to use language for
    beginners that's the problem, but the fact that it's a easy to use
    language with security tacked on afterwards that's the problem.

    > Arne


    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world

  10. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?


    >>> I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    >>> English word ???) with DCL.

    >> PHP is more like C than DCL

    >
    > PHP is more like a steaming, stinking pile of dung than any usable
    > computer programming language.


    Isn't that precisely what the previous poster said ? :-)

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie
    EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696
    A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697
    Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer
    Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"
    Ireland

  11. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 05:07:52 -0700, Tom Wade
    wrote:

    >
    >>>> I'm learning Php, and I find a lot of similarities (is that a genuine
    >>>> English word ???) with DCL.
    >>> PHP is more like C than DCL

    >> PHP is more like a steaming, stinking pile of dung than any usable
    >> computer programming language.

    >
    > Isn't that precisely what the previous poster said ? :-)


    Good point. What do you guys use? I looked at your www do you use
    VMS for your mail server?

    >
    > ---------------------------------------------------------
    > Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie
    > EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696
    > A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697
    > Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer
    > Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"
    > Ireland




    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  12. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    In article ,
    Simon Clubley writes:
    > On 2008-04-07, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >>
    >> Within its intended area of usage it is actually an OK language.
    >>
    >> It is possible to write quite well structured code using PHP.
    >>
    >> PHP' bad reputation comes mostly from the fact that 14 year olds
    >> can write pretty feature rich web apps in it - and did so. And even
    >> though the result looked very good for the end user, then programmers
    >> tasked with maintaining and extending it got a nightmare.
    >>

    >
    > AIUI, it's not so much the fact that it's a easy to use language for
    > beginners that's the problem, but the fact that it's a easy to use
    > language with security tacked on afterwards that's the problem.


    I must be looking in the wrong palces, then. I haven't seen any concept
    of security either in the original design or "tacked on afterwards".
    I am amazed that peopple who bitch about the Unix secuity model seem so
    enamored with crap like PHP and Perl.

    I work in a school with a graduate program in Software Engineering.
    It's all based on the supposed model devloped by SEI. I haven't seen
    anything that even begins to approach the "Software Engineering" we
    were doing 30 years ago before the term was even foisted on the IT
    industry. And languages like PHP and Perl are based on a paradigm
    that is the antithesis of SE. The people using them make the old
    BASIC programmers look like consumate professionals!! I wonder what
    Dijkstra would have said about these languages as compared to his
    "love" of BASIC. :-)


    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  13. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > Didier_Toulouse wrote:
    >> I'm learning Php,

    >
    > Be sure to learn PHP properly: PHP5, OOP, mysqli not mysql (or even
    > better PDO), DOM not DOM XML, various Pear etc..
    >
    > Arne


    No thanks.

    Dweeb.



  14. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    CyberCityNews wrote:
    > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Didier_Toulouse wrote:
    >>> I'm learning Php,

    >> Be sure to learn PHP properly: PHP5, OOP, mysqli not mysql (or even
    >> better PDO), DOM not DOM XML, various Pear etc..

    >
    > No thanks.


    If someone want to learn PHP there are not much point in
    learning PHP the wrong way.

    Arne

  15. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Simon Clubley wrote:
    > On 2008-04-07, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Within its intended area of usage it is actually an OK language.
    >>
    >> It is possible to write quite well structured code using PHP.
    >>
    >> PHP' bad reputation comes mostly from the fact that 14 year olds
    >> can write pretty feature rich web apps in it - and did so. And even
    >> though the result looked very good for the end user, then programmers
    >> tasked with maintaining and extending it got a nightmare.

    >
    > AIUI, it's not so much the fact that it's a easy to use language for
    > beginners that's the problem, but the fact that it's a easy to use
    > language with security tacked on afterwards that's the problem.


    Security is not a feature in programming languages. Security depends
    on how the code is written.

    Arne

  16. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > I work in a school with a graduate program in Software Engineering.
    > It's all based on the supposed model devloped by SEI. I haven't seen
    > anything that even begins to approach the "Software Engineering" we
    > were doing 30 years ago before the term was even foisted on the IT
    > industry.


    My impression is that software engineering has advances quite a bit
    the last 20 years. But different universities, different students
    and different criteria s may explain the difference.

    > And languages like PHP and Perl are based on a paradigm
    > that is the antithesis of SE. The people using them make the old
    > BASIC programmers look like consumate professionals!! I wonder what
    > Dijkstra would have said about these languages as compared to his
    > "love" of BASIC. :-)


    I am not good enough in Perl to comment on that.

    PHP support well structured procedural and object oriented
    programming.

    PHP does not even have a goto statement.

    I doubt that Dijkstra would have anything bad to say about
    that.

    Arne

  17. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    On 2008-04-08, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > Simon Clubley wrote:
    >>
    >> AIUI, it's not so much the fact that it's a easy to use language for
    >> beginners that's the problem, but the fact that it's a easy to use
    >> language with security tacked on afterwards that's the problem.

    >
    > Security is not a feature in programming languages. Security depends
    > on how the code is written.
    >


    Strictly speaking, you are correct.

    However, I would argue that design decisions within the programming
    language can help with how secure that code is by default.

    For example, looking at traditional languages, I would suggest that,
    for programmers of equal capability, code written in Ada is more likely
    to be secure than code written in C.

    (And yes Bill, I _know_ that you can write secure code in C. :-) I'm
    just saying that some languages make it easier to write secure code.)

    Simon.

    --
    Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
    Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world

  18. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?


    > Good point. What do you guys use? I looked at your www do you use
    > VMS for your mail server?


    Absolutely. OpenVMS platform. Multinet TCP/IP stack. PMDF mailer.
    Sophos VSWEEP (with vFastScan turbocharger) & PreciseMail Anti-Spam.
    Lots of home developed stuff added on.

    Not only do we use the above for our mail filtering service (which pays
    our salaries), we are also the country support for PMDF, PreciseMail &
    Multinet (vFastScan is our own product), so we are big fans of VMS.

    My own mail/news client is Thunderbird, configured to use IMAP off my
    VMS workstation (PMDF IMAP client serving VMSMAIL folders). That way if
    my toy (*) goes belly up, the mail folders are safe on the VMS box.

    (*) anything running Windows.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie
    EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696
    A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697
    Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer
    Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"
    Ireland

  19. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    In article <47fc244e$0$90268$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
    Arne Vajh°j writes:
    > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >> I work in a school with a graduate program in Software Engineering.
    >> It's all based on the supposed model devloped by SEI. I haven't seen
    >> anything that even begins to approach the "Software Engineering" we
    >> were doing 30 years ago before the term was even foisted on the IT
    >> industry.

    >
    > My impression is that software engineering has advances quite a bit
    > the last 20 years. But different universities, different students
    > and different criteria s may explain the difference.


    What they teach as the SE methodology does not even come close to the
    amount of "engineering" we put into projects back in my applications
    programming days (late 70's early 80's). And we won't even go into
    the fact that the teaching is all lip service because none of the
    students actually apply it to their coursework and none of the
    professors seem to care.

    >
    >> And languages like PHP and Perl are based on a paradigm
    >> that is the antithesis of SE. The people using them make the old
    >> BASIC programmers look like consumate professionals!! I wonder what
    >> Dijkstra would have said about these languages as compared to his
    >> "love" of BASIC. :-)

    >
    > I am not good enough in Perl to comment on that.
    >
    > PHP support well structured procedural and object oriented
    > programming.
    >
    > PHP does not even have a goto statement.


    Just like one can write good programs even with GOTO, the lack of one
    does not magically make programs written in a language structured,
    elegant or proper. "Rapid prototyping" languages by their very nature
    and the paradigm they espouse are the antithesis of SE.

    >
    > I doubt that Dijkstra would have anything bad to say about
    > that.


    Based on all the things wrong with the underlying paradigm of the
    language, the least of which is a non-existant security model, I
    would hope you were wrong. Sadly, we will never know.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  20. Re: Php invented by a former DECcie ?

    In article <47fca857$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>,
    Simon Clubley writes:
    > On 2008-04-08, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Simon Clubley wrote:
    >>>
    >>> AIUI, it's not so much the fact that it's a easy to use language for
    >>> beginners that's the problem, but the fact that it's a easy to use
    >>> language with security tacked on afterwards that's the problem.

    >>
    >> Security is not a feature in programming languages. Security depends
    >> on how the code is written.
    >>

    >
    > Strictly speaking, you are correct.
    >
    > However, I would argue that design decisions within the programming
    > language can help with how secure that code is by default.
    >
    > For example, looking at traditional languages, I would suggest that,
    > for programmers of equal capability, code written in Ada is more likely
    > to be secure than code written in C.
    >
    > (And yes Bill, I _know_ that you can write secure code in C. :-) I'm
    > just saying that some languages make it easier to write secure code.)


    No argument from me. I have used both C and Ada (and more than a dozen
    other languages over the years) and they all have their place. While I
    always argue that there is nothing inherently wrong with the C language
    I am also a very strong supporter of choosong the right language for
    the job. I wouldn't write an Accounts Receivable program in C and I
    wouldn't write an OS in COBOL. :-)

    Oh yeah, and I wouldn't write anything in PHP. :-)

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

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