Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available - VMS

This is a discussion on Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available - VMS ; Main, Kerry wrote: > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the last > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS? Which ones run on VMS ? Do any run ...

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Thread: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

  1. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the last
    > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS?


    Which ones run on VMS ? Do any run on MacIntosh ? Solaris ?

    > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a better
    > command line infrastructure right now as the feedback they received is
    > that GUI's do not cut it for production environments e.g. large batch
    > and reporting type environments.



    That is certaintly not because of VMS, it is because of Linux.


  2. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >> Generally, you have to use the tools that are available, whatever they
    >> might be. It has been a while since I looked at pricing but a Fortran
    >> compiler license for the VAX 11/750 used to cost $5,000 US. The price
    >> was approximately the same for ANY of the available compilers. This
    >> meant that you didn't always have the appropriate tool for the job;
    >> you had to "make do" with whatever was available.

    >
    > Price of tools are often an important factor in the decision
    > about tools.
    >
    > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making
    > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools
    > are zero.
    >
    > Arne


    Now, it's really important how many applications are available for a
    particulary hardware architecture and operating system.

    Windows is successful because of the number and variety of applications
    available. It also helps that the price is right! I would guess that
    there are more applications available for Windows X86 than for any other
    platform! Volume keeps the prices of the apps down. That's why I can
    get Turbo-Tax for around $40. What do you think the same software
    written for VMS would cost? It could be done and it could probably be
    made to run on Unix/Linux as well. It has not been done because the
    market isn't there in any meaningful way.


  3. RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    > Sent: April 12, 2008 3:35 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > >> Jan-Erik S÷derholm wrote:
    > >>> Just as for any other server-OS on the planet, even 3270
    > >>> on MVS is replaced by other client tools, web based or
    > >>> whatever. VMS is no different than any other server-OS
    > >>> in this regard.
    > >>
    > >> OS that are relegated to server only stuff don't have much of a

    > future.
    > >> Even Linux knows that to gain market traction, it needs to have a
    > >> modern
    > >> user interface.

    >
    > > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the

    > last
    > > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS?

    >
    > No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop
    > for word processing etc..
    >
    > The development for server OS's seems to be going in the opposite
    > direction - less GUI.
    >
    > As an example Windows 2008 Server Core Installation.
    >
    > Arne


    Arne -

    You are correct about the server management. Batch, reporting, scheduling
    and overall customization of server related jobs are definitely command
    line driven.

    Having stated this, it is important to have GUI interfaces for managing
    those servers because of Operations and Help desk staff i.e. junior staff
    that need to do basic systems management e.g. user, print, backups etc.



    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.

  4. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Arne Vajh°j wrote:

    > No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop
    > for word processing etc..



    I am NOT dreaming. Do you remember one of the last DEC adverts with a
    music from Information Society ?
    you can sample the tune it at: (requires itunes)

    http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...66480&s=143455

    This was used as part of DEC's unveiling of workstations AND a massive
    office software depployment that included DECwrite, DECcalc, the
    compound document architecture with converters to all the then popular
    formats, integration with ALLIN-1.

    This architecture blew the socks off anything Microsoft had, and allowed
    you to have a word processing document that embedded a spreadsheet
    residing on a different node in your network. This was before Microsoft
    had any usable networking on its DOS. (I guess by 1988, MS had a
    primitive Windows 1.0 ?)

    But DEC only pitched it to its own customers, never did any "public"
    adverts on this, didn't price itself competitively (saying that its
    products were superior and thus warranted 10 times the price of
    compeitors). Also, DEC didn't update the converters quickly enough and
    when Palmer came in, the whole thing was slashed to pieces.

    Yeah, today, DECwrite is long on the tooth. But it is essentially what
    DEC had in 1988/1989, and put yourself back in that timeframe, and that
    software was way ahead of its time back then.



  5. RE: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: April 12, 2008 3:45 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > If you are talking about managing servers with GUI's, when was the

    > last
    > > time you looked at any of the modern GUI tools to manage OpenVMS?

    >
    > Which ones run on VMS ? Do any run on MacIntosh ? Solaris ?
    >


    Does the user clicking on the browser or GUI care?

    > > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a

    > better
    > > command line infrastructure right now as the feedback they received

    > is
    > > that GUI's do not cut it for production environments e.g. large batch
    > > and reporting type environments.

    >
    >
    > That is certaintly not because of VMS, it is because of Linux.


    Neither - it is because server Operations requires highly customized batch,
    print and other type command line requirements that are not suited to GUI's..

    It has zero to do with any other competitive OS platform features (other than
    Microsoft trying to copy similar features etc).



    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






  6. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    On Apr 10, 9:22 am, Dan O'Reilly wrote:
    > At 07:34 AM 4/10/2008, Bob Koehler wrote:
    >
    > >In article ,
    > >=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:

    >
    > > > Try using the correct name, OpenVMS (or "Open VMS").

    >
    > > DEC thought that was the correct name, and look where they are now.

    >
    > Yeah, just look: 30 years later & VMS is still being developed & sold...


    When did the name change? I remember in 1994, going to a show in
    Atlanta... "Open" was the new catch-phrase.

    I received a pin (with a "blinken-light") that said "OS/400 is
    OPEN" (or was it "AS/400"). So, "OS" really was "Open System 400". I
    thought I learned that VMS was renamed OpenVMS about that time...

    Actually, I've never seen anything MORE CLOSED than OS/400. Working on
    it today, and it is still pretty nasty.

  7. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Arne Vajh°j schrieb:

    > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making
    > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools
    > are zero.


    Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid
    for their work by somebody.



  8. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Tom Linden schrieb:
    > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:27:05 -0700, AEF wrote:
    >
    >> And then there's Microsoft software. Does anyone think PL/I could save
    >> them? Well, it might help a little, I'm not really sure.

    >
    >
    > Funny, you should bring that up, because I asked Cutler about 10 years ago
    > if they had any interest in PL/I on NT, No.


    I think at that point in time IBM had already a PL/I product for NT.


  9. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Tom Linden schrieb:

    > Sorry to belabor the point, but just because a compiler is expensive
    > doesn't
    > imply that using an inferior tool is the best choice, in fact, I would
    > argue
    > to the contrary.


    Often enough it wasn't the price of a PL/I product but
    simply (non)availability which hindered its widespread use.
    In the 1980s, a lot of people interested in IT purchased
    computers for home use. They learned programming in Pascal, C
    or Basic. AFAIK there wasn't any PL/I for the then popular
    Mac, Atari, Amiga, Amstrad etc. A good PL/I product probably would
    have been too heavy-weight for these entry-level machines anyway.
    Even the IBM PC hadn't a half decent PL/I until way into the 1990s.
    The only platforms where PL/I gained some popularity
    (and which could carry the heavy weight) were the
    "proprietary" MVS and VMS.
    When downsizing and open systems became the motd in 1990+,
    the main target platforms, such as Solaris, HP-UX, and other Unices
    had no viable PL/I infrastructure, not even AIX.
    If PL/I with 99% mainframe compatibility would have been available
    back then, it would have made a difference, but it wasn't there
    when it was needed most.



  10. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> No. I think he is dreaming about OpenVMS on the desktop
    >> for word processing etc..

    >
    >
    > I am NOT dreaming. Do you remember one of the last DEC adverts with a
    > music from Information Society ?
    > you can sample the tune it at: (requires itunes)
    >
    > http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...66480&s=143455
    >
    > This was used as part of DEC's unveiling of workstations AND a massive
    > office software depployment that included DECwrite, DECcalc, the
    > compound document architecture with converters to all the then popular
    > formats, integration with ALLIN-1.
    >
    > This architecture blew the socks off anything Microsoft had, and allowed
    > you to have a word processing document that embedded a spreadsheet
    > residing on a different node in your network. This was before Microsoft
    > had any usable networking on its DOS. (I guess by 1988, MS had a
    > primitive Windows 1.0 ?)
    >
    > But DEC only pitched it to its own customers, never did any "public"
    > adverts on this, didn't price itself competitively (saying that its
    > products were superior and thus warranted 10 times the price of
    > compeitors). Also, DEC didn't update the converters quickly enough and
    > when Palmer came in, the whole thing was slashed to pieces.
    >
    > Yeah, today, DECwrite is long on the tooth. But it is essentially what
    > DEC had in 1988/1989, and put yourself back in that timeframe, and that
    > software was way ahead of its time back then.


    It was 20 years ago.

    The software was probably OK back then.

    But DEC could not have produced VAXstations to compete with
    those PC thingies price wise.

    Arne

  11. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    winston19842005@yahoo.com wrote:
    > On Apr 10, 9:22 am, Dan O'Reilly wrote:
    >> At 07:34 AM 4/10/2008, Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:
    >>>> Try using the correct name, OpenVMS (or "Open VMS").
    >>> DEC thought that was the correct name, and look where they are now.

    >> Yeah, just look: 30 years later & VMS is still being developed & sold...

    >
    > When did the name change? I remember in 1994, going to a show in
    > Atlanta... "Open" was the new catch-phrase.


    The silent "Open" came with the POSIX compliance.

    It is many years ago, but I believe it could have been
    with (Open)VMS 6.1 !

    Arne

  12. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > Arne Vajh°j schrieb:
    >> The good thing (for developers in general not for those making
    >> tools) is that the new standard price for development tools
    >> are zero.

    >
    > Well, at some point somehow the tool makers have to be paid
    > for their work by somebody.


    True.

    But the big HW and SW companies often fund the development of
    those tools today out of the revenue from the production stuff.

    And some are done for free by developers having a day job
    doing end user software.

    Arne

  13. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Arne Vajh°j schrieb:

    > It was 20 years ago.
    >
    > The software was probably OK back then.
    >
    > But DEC could not have produced VAXstations to compete with
    > those PC thingies price wise.


    Decent PCs weren't cheap either in those days.
    And they had no OS ( unless you identify
    the M$ floppy controller aka MS-DOS as an OS ).
    VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized
    compared to their RISC counterparts.



  14. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    AEF wrote:
    > Not socialism, loss leader. And will it work long term? Yes I see the
    > smiley, but not sure to which parts of your sentence it applies.


    It seems to work.

    SUN and Oracle are heavy into it. IBM and MS is somewhat into it. All
    kinds of open source projects seems to live fine.

    I can't see any indication that it would stop.

    Arne

  15. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > And btw, Microsoft is under a lot of pressure to come up with a better
    > command line infrastructure right now


    They have: powershell.

    Arne

  16. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Tom Linden wrote:
    > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard
    > wrote:
    >> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used for
    >> stuff
    >> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is IMHO
    >> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I?

    >
    > Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I?
    > I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so
    > years ago
    > for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape driver
    > on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW.


    Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ?

    Arne

  17. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajh°j wrote:

    > Tom Linden wrote:
    >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard
    >> wrote:
    >>> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used for
    >>> stuff
    >>> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is
    >>> IMHO
    >>> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I?

    >> Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I?
    >> I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so
    >> years ago
    >> for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape
    >> driver
    >> on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW.

    >
    > Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ?


    Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL, secondly don't know what you
    mean by supported. If I write a device driver that is my concern not HP's

    >
    > Arne




    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  18. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:30:43 -0700, Michael Kraemer
    wrote:

    > Tom Linden schrieb:
    >> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:27:05 -0700, AEF wrote:
    >>
    >>> And then there's Microsoft software. Does anyone think PL/I could save
    >>> them? Well, it might help a little, I'm not really sure.

    >> Funny, you should bring that up, because I asked Cutler about 10
    >> years ago
    >> if they had any interest in PL/I on NT, No.

    >
    > I think at that point in time IBM had already a PL/I product for NT.
    >

    No, they hadn't


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  19. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Tom Linden wrote:
    > On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:22:43 -0700, Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Tom Linden wrote:
    >>> On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:46:30 -0700, Bob Willard
    >>> wrote:
    >>>> 2.C, in its place, is pretty good. In particular, when C is used
    >>>> for stuff
    >>>> that would otherwise have been written in assembly language, C is
    >>>> IMHO
    >>>> just dandy. Have you had good luck writing device drivers in PL/I?
    >>> Maybe I am more familiar with C than you are with PL/I?
    >>> I haven't had a need to do so, but I easily could, and have done so
    >>> years ago
    >>> for unix, including replacing some portions of the kernel. The tape
    >>> driver
    >>> on Primos was written in Fortran, BTW.

    >>
    >> Is writing a device driver in another HLL than C supported on OpenVMS ?

    >
    > Firstly I would not characterize C as a HLL,


    Many people consider anything above assembler for HLL.

    > secondly don't know what you
    > mean by supported. If I write a device driver that is my concern not HP's


    Consider: supported = documented.

    I am not a driver person. Far from. But as I understand it then there
    are quite a few things you can not do in a driver and there are
    documentation for C about what you can use of C without breaking
    any of the rules. Does similar documentation exist in the PL/I
    documentation or in the VMS documentation or in a book for PL/I ?

    Even if the docs does not exist then you may still be able to
    write a driver in PL/I because you know what it does, but that
    does not cut it as supported.

    Arne


  20. Re: Longtime VMS system manager/programmer available

    Michael Kraemer wrote:

    > VAXstations OTOH were ridiculously overprized
    > compared to their RISC counterparts.



    Replace the word "ridiculously" with "artificially".

    DEC suffered from the "must not allow our high margin customers from
    starting to buy more powerful and cheaper systems from us". They never
    thought about attracting more new customers to compensate for the high
    marghin customers buying cheaper systems from DEC.

    So those high margin customers ended up buying smaller, more powerful
    and cheaper systems from companies DEC refused to admit competed against
    itself. (like compaq/microsoft)

    DEC had had many opportunities from the early 1980s to the late 1980s to
    really make it big. They missed them. Miseed the boat and were left behind.


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