Does POWER_OFF really work ? - VMS

This is a discussion on Does POWER_OFF really work ? - VMS ; Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR . While doing the shutdown procedure, SHUTDOWN.COM prompts me for shutdown options and one of them was POWER_OFF . So I selected this. But after the shutdown, the power ...

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  1. Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    While doing the shutdown procedure, SHUTDOWN.COM prompts me for shutdown
    options and one of them was POWER_OFF . So I selected this.

    But after the shutdown, the power stayed on. (Alpha DS10L , this has the
    RMC and from RMC one can power off the unit).

    Is this normal ? (the console is a graphic device, not a serial port)

  2. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .
    >{...snip...}


    As you've experienced, it works about as well as Earth Hour did.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  3. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    writes:

    > Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .


    What is EARTH-HOUR?

    > While doing the shutdown procedure, SHUTDOWN.COM prompts me for shutdown
    > options and one of them was POWER_OFF . So I selected this.
    >
    > But after the shutdown, the power stayed on. (Alpha DS10L , this has the
    > RMC and from RMC one can power off the unit).
    >
    > Is this normal ? (the console is a graphic device, not a serial port)


    It depends on the hardware model. I have seen it work on a Personal
    Workstation, but not on a 3000/600. I believe a necessary, if perhaps
    not sufficient, condition is that the power switch is the "toggle" type,
    i.e. one can't tell from the position of the switch whether it is on or
    off.


  4. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >While doing the shutdown procedure, SHUTDOWN.COM prompts me for shutdown
    >options and one of them was POWER_OFF . So I selected this.
    >
    >But after the shutdown, the power stayed on. (Alpha DS10L , this has the
    >RMC and from RMC one can power off the unit).
    >
    >Is this normal ? (the console is a graphic device, not a serial port)


    POWER_OFF works on my PWS433au, but (so far) doesn't on my PWS500au, DS10, ...
    I think it mostly depends if your the supply has a push button or a switch.

    --
    Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
    Network and OpenVMS system specialist
    E-mail peter@langstoeger.at
    A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist

  5. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > writes:
    >
    >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    >
    >What is EARTH-HOUR?


    Just a way to make people concerned about the environment feel good about
    themselves and nothing more.

    http://www.earthhour.org/

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  6. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:38:23 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote:

    > In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > writes:
    >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .
    >> {...snip...}

    >
    > As you've experienced, it works about as well as Earth Hour did.
    >

    And equally significant


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  7. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Mar 30, 7:46 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article , hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >
    > >In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > > writes:

    >
    > >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    >
    > >What is EARTH-HOUR?

    >
    > Just a way to make people concerned about the environment feel good about
    > themselves and nothing more.
    >
    > http://www.earthhour.org/
    >
    > --
    > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >
    > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
    >
    > http://tmesis.com/drat.html



    Anything that makes the sky darker, even for only an hour, and/or has
    the net result of improving lighthing by increasing efficiency (esp.
    by decreasing wasted light that goes up into the sky, helping no one),
    and reducing glare (which actually INCREASES nighttime visibility
    making a safer and more pleasant nighttime environment), is fine by
    me. Bravo!

    See http://www.darksky.org/


    AEF

  8. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article <1ea8e2fb-040d-4f8f-ad2f-40a84aabd673@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:
    >On Mar 30, 7:46 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >> In article , hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >>
    >> >In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    >> > writes:

    >>
    >> >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    >>
    >> >What is EARTH-HOUR?

    >>
    >> Just a way to make people concerned about the environment feel good about
    >> themselves and nothing more.
    >>
    >> http://www.earthhour.org/
    >>
    >> --
    >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >>
    >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
    >>
    >> http://tmesis.com/drat.html

    >
    >
    >Anything that makes the sky darker, even for only an hour, and/or has
    >the net result of improving lighthing by increasing efficiency (esp.
    >by decreasing wasted light that goes up into the sky, helping no one),
    >and reducing glare (which actually INCREASES nighttime visibility
    >making a safer and more pleasant nighttime environment), is fine by
    >me. Bravo!
    >
    >See http://www.darksky.org/


    'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power companies generate electric
    based on average demands. I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  9. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    > 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    > it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power companies generate electric
    > based on average demands. I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    > changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.


    Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

  10. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >
    >> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    >> it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power companies generate electric
    >> based on average demands. I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    >> changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.

    >
    > Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    > 8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.


    I heard on the radio it was about 7% out here Vancouver way.

    . fred .

  11. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Mar 31, 11:09 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <1ea8e2fb-040d-4f8f-ad2f-40a84aabd...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > >On Mar 30, 7:46 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > >> In article , hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:

    >
    > >> >In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > >> > writes:

    >
    > >> >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    >
    > >> >What is EARTH-HOUR?

    >
    > >> Just a way to make people concerned about the environment feel good about
    > >> themselves and nothing more.

    >
    > >>http://www.earthhour.org/

    >
    > >> --
    > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    >
    > >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    >
    > >>http://tmesis.com/drat.html

    >
    > >Anything that makes the sky darker, even for only an hour, and/or has
    > >the net result of improving lighthing by increasing efficiency (esp.
    > >by decreasing wasted light that goes up into the sky, helping no one),
    > >and reducing glare (which actually INCREASES nighttime visibility
    > >making a safer and more pleasant nighttime environment), is fine by
    > >me. Bravo!

    >
    > >Seehttp://www.darksky.org/

    >
    > 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    > it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power companies generate electric
    > based on average demands. I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    > changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.
    >
    > --
    > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >
    > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
    >
    > http://tmesis.com/drat.html


    I don't care about the energy consumption as much as I do about dark
    skies and reduced glare and improved visibility and safety! At least
    it was darker for an hour and maybe people realized that it's not so
    bad and maybe even enjoyed seeing more stars and blah blah blah. It's
    a step in the right direction and with the NYC metro area being a
    major light pollution source, it's just nice to hear of something
    going right somewhere, even if only for an hour. And if there are any
    dark-sky enthusiasts in one of these cities it might help them with
    their message!

    http://www.darksky.org/

    AEF

  12. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes:
    >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >
    >> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    >> it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power companies generate electric
    >> based on average demands. I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    >> changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.

    >
    >Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    >8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.


    Could be but the generators were still turning!


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  13. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:

    > In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > writes:
    >>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >>
    >>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    >>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    >>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    >>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    >>> brief hour dip on the grid.

    >>
    >>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    >>8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >
    > Could be but the generators were still turning!


    They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels on a
    car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill the
    engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at a much
    greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the wheels, at the
    same speed.

  14. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article , BobH writes:
    >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    >news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:
    >
    >> In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    >> writes:
    >>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    >>>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    >>>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    >>>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    >>>> brief hour dip on the grid.
    >>>
    >>>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    >>>8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >>
    >> Could be but the generators were still turning!

    >
    >They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    >proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels on a
    >car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill the
    >engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at a much
    >greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the wheels, at the
    >same speed.


    Gas turbines aren't enormously efficient! 60% at most. A 7% dip in the
    grid for an hour didn't affect anything significantly!

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  15. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Apr 1, 7:53 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article , BobH writes:
    > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    > >news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:

    >
    > >> In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > >> writes:
    > >>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    >
    > >>>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    > >>>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    > >>>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    > >>>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    > >>>> brief hour dip on the grid.

    >
    > >>>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    > >>>8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >
    > >> Could be but the generators were still turning!

    >
    > >They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    > >proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels on a
    > >car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill the
    > >engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at a much
    > >greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the wheels, at the
    > >same speed.

    >
    > Gas turbines aren't enormously efficient! 60% at most. A 7% dip in the
    > grid for an hour didn't affect anything significantly!
    >
    > --
    > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >


    60%?! That's amazingly good for heat --> electricity. I thought the
    practical limit was around 40%, though I vaguely remember reading
    about some "super" stuff perhaps getting that high. Still quite an
    achievement.

    AEF

  16. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Apr 1, 7:53 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article , BobH writes:
    > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    > >news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:

    >
    > >> In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > >> writes:
    > >>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    >
    > >>>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    > >>>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    > >>>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    > >>>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    > >>>> brief hour dip on the grid.

    >
    > >>>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    > >>>8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >
    > >> Could be but the generators were still turning!

    >
    > >They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    > >proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels on a
    > >car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill the
    > >engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at a much
    > >greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the wheels, at the
    > >same speed.

    >
    > Gas turbines aren't enormously efficient! 60% at most. A 7% dip in the
    > grid for an hour didn't affect anything significantly!
    >
    > --
    > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >


    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine for typical heat-engine
    efficiencies.

    Remember the 3 laws of thermodynamics:

    1. You can't win.

    2. You can't even break even.

    3. You gotta play the game.

    AEF

  17. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    In article , AEF writes:
    >On Apr 1, 7:53 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >> In article , BobH writes:
    >> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    >> >news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:

    >>
    >> >> In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    >> >> writes:
    >> >>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    >>
    >> >>>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    >> >>>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    >> >>>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    >> >>>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    >> >>>> brief hour dip on the grid.

    >>
    >> >>>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    >> >>>8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >>
    >> >> Could be but the generators were still turning!

    >>
    >> >They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    >> >proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels on a
    >> >car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill the
    >> >engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at a much
    >> >greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the wheels, at the
    >> >same speed.

    >>
    >> Gas turbines aren't enormously efficient! 60% at most. A 7% dip in the
    >> grid for an hour didn't affect anything significantly!
    >>
    >> --
    >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >>

    >
    >See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine for typical heat-engine
    >efficiencies.


    Then why didn't you consult wiki's gas turbine efficiency reference?



    >Remember the 3 laws of thermodynamics:
    >
    >1. You can't win.
    >
    >2. You can't even break even.
    >
    >3. You gotta play the game.


    Wow. I'm going to have to toss my Sears and Salinger "Thermodynamics,
    Kinetic Theory, and Statistical Thermodynamics" in the fire as they've
    mislead me on these laws.

    dU=dQ-dw ... hogwash!

    dS=dQ/T .... doggerel!

    lim S=0 .... utter bull****!
    T->0

    If I should cross paths with Dr. Smith, I'll personally thank him for
    wasting several hours a week for two semesters which would have been
    better spent in the pub contemplating the adiabatic boundary keeping
    heat flow (q) from my favorite beverages.


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  18. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Mar 31, 5:37*pm, Fred Bach wrote:
    > JF Mezei wrote:
    > > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    >
    > >> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    > >> it was a gesture about conserving energy. *Power companies generate electric
    > >> based on average demands. *I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    > >> changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.

    >
    > > Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed an
    > > 8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.

    >
    > * *I heard on the radio it was about 7% out here Vancouver way.
    >
    > * . fred .


    Chicago reported a 7% drop. Its an awareness thing, and the more that
    are made aware, the better. I think.

    Similar to when recycling was introduced some years ago. Many recycle
    now by default. Didn't before. Perhaps the same will happen
    (eventually) with shutting off a light here and there. Its a start.

    Dave...


  19. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    On Mar 31, 12:09*pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <1ea8e2fb-040d-4f8f-ad2f-40a84aabd...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >On Mar 30, 7:46 am, VAXman- *@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > >> In article , hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:

    >
    > >> >In article <47ef152b$0$23915$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    > >> > writes:

    >
    > >> >> Figured I would shut down one of my alphas for EARTH-HOUR .

    >
    > >> >What is EARTH-HOUR?

    >
    > >> Just a way to make people concerned about the environment feel good about
    > >> themselves and nothing more.

    >
    > >>http://www.earthhour.org/

    >
    > >> --
    > >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker * VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    >
    > >> * "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    >
    > >>http://tmesis.com/drat.html

    >
    > >Anything that makes the sky darker, even for only an hour, and/or has
    > >the net result of improving lighthing by increasing efficiency (esp.
    > >by decreasing wasted light that goes up into the sky, helping no one),
    > >and reducing glare (which actually INCREASES nighttime visibility
    > >making a safer and more pleasant nighttime environment), is fine by
    > >me. Bravo!

    >
    > >Seehttp://www.darksky.org/

    >
    > 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light pollution,
    > it was a gesture about conserving energy. *Power companies generate electric
    > based on average demands. *I really doubt that they made any fuel consumption
    > changes based on a minor brief hour dip on the grid.


    I worked on power generation control (on VAX VMS).

    They most certainly do not generate based on average demand. They are
    constantly changing output to balance generation and demand.

    They keep nuclear plant output constant for safety reasons. They use
    other types of generators to vary demand. Hydro/pump storage/load
    control is the easiest to vary. But I think they could have varied
    gas or coal fired plant for a 1 hour drop in demand - not sure.

    >
    > --
    > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker * VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
    >
    > * "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
    >
    > http://tmesis.com/drat.html- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -



  20. Re: Does POWER_OFF really work ?

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    news:47f22222$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:

    > In article , BobH writes:
    >>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in
    >>news:47f16c09$0$5615$607ed4bc@cv.net:
    >>
    >>> In article <47f15559$0$3857$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
    >>> writes:
    >>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> 'Twould be fine with me too but the power-hour wasn't about light
    >>>>> pollution, it was a gesture about conserving energy. Power
    >>>>> companies generate electric based on average demands. I really
    >>>>> doubt that they made any fuel consumption changes based on a minor
    >>>>> brief hour dip on the grid.
    >>>>
    >>>>Not sure how authoritative, but I heard the city of Toronto noticed
    >>>>an 8% drop in electrical consumption during that hour.
    >>>
    >>> Could be but the generators were still turning!

    >>
    >>They may well be spinning, but the amount of energy they use is
    >>proportional to the amount of power they are outputting. The wheels
    >>on a car may turn at the same speed down hill and uphill, but downhill
    >>the engine may be near idle, while uphill it is consuming gasoline at
    >>a much greater rate, even theough it is turning, along with the
    >>wheels, at the same speed.

    >
    > Gas turbines aren't enormously efficient! 60% at most. A 7% dip in
    > the grid for an hour didn't affect anything significantly!


    My point of course is to contridict the notion that reducing output did
    not conserver energy. If the gas turbines delivered 7% less energy then
    to a first order approximation they consumed 7% less fuel, contrary to an
    earlier assertion.

    The argument that a 7% reduction for an hour or whatever the numbers are
    is too small to make any real difference is a seperate question. Any
    reduction in electrical power used will reflect in a reduction in fuel
    used and most likely carbon emmissions, and it will be in rough
    proportion.

    I say that because: hydro will eventually use all the water behind the
    dams. If you reflect the reduced demand in reduced hydo output you will
    have more left later to reduce the need to burn fuel. Eventually you
    save fuel no matter when you use the water. In the case of wind, solar
    and the like you either use it or lose it. Might as well use all you can
    since reducing production does not save or conserve anything. You still
    have to pay the same on your costs (the investment in the generation
    resources). The non-fuel based generation options are basically fixed
    cost inverstments regardless of how much of their capacity you use, so
    the best bet in the case of a demand reduction seems to be to continue
    full production from them and absorb the reduced demand with reductions
    in burning fuel.

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