RX3600 and VMS 8.3 - VMS

This is a discussion on RX3600 and VMS 8.3 - VMS ; If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you share your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25 running vms 8.3 to the Itanium. Thank you in Advance, Chuck...

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Thread: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

  1. RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you share
    your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25
    running
    vms 8.3 to the Itanium.

    Thank you in Advance,

    Chuck

  2. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:52:10 -0700, Chuck Aaron
    wrote:

    > If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you
    > share
    > your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25
    > running
    > vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >
    > Thank you in Advance,
    >
    > Chuck


    My experience with Itanium suggests that you need about twice as much RAM
    as Alpha (which was about three times VAX)


    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  3. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    You will need more disk space and memory than you think but that's OK
    because those servers turn up with plenty to start of with :-)

    Sadly I have not got a rx3600 but the specs look impressive and
    talking to people who are lucky enough to have one they tell me they
    are very wizzy.

    I find VMS V8.3 on a rx2620 just fine and faster than a DS25. YMMV

    Alignment faults kill your system performance on itanium systems but
    there are tools to find them (MON ALIGN, FLT$SDA).


  4. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Tom Linden wrote:
    > On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 07:52:10 -0700, Chuck Aaron
    > wrote:
    >
    >> If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can
    >> you share
    >> your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha
    >> DS25 running
    >> vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >>
    >> Thank you in Advance,
    >>
    >> Chuck

    >
    >
    > My experience with Itanium suggests that you need about twice as much RAM
    > as Alpha (which was about three times VAX)
    >
    >


    Make that FOUR times for VAXen with small memory. 64 MB is about the
    minimum for an Alpha and more is better. There is nothing quite so
    pitiful as a virtual memory system starved for physical memory. Data
    sizes in the Alpha are the same but the executable code is substantially
    larger. No experience with Itanic but if you need twice as much RAM on
    Itanic as on Alpha I'd suggest a minimum of six to eight times what you
    would use on a VAX.

    Try not to get into a position where you have to trade-in or throw away
    your original memory because you have no free slots left.




  5. RE: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Chuck Aaron [mailto:caaron@ceris.purdue.edu]
    > Sent: March 24, 2008 10:52 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: RX3600 and VMS 8.3
    >
    > If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you
    > share
    > your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha
    > DS25
    > running
    > vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >
    > Thank you in Advance,
    >
    > Chuck


    Good Alpha to IA64 presentation from the folks at Bruden (Guy Peleg) -
    http://www.hp-interex.be/wiki/images...plications.ppt


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-254-8911
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  6. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    In article ,
    Chuck Aaron wrote:

    > If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you share
    > your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25
    > running
    > vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >
    > Thank you in Advance,
    >
    > Chuck


    The title of your post says rx3600, but the body says rx3660. There's
    no such thing as an Integrity rx3660 server. You probably meant rx3600,
    but you might have meant rx2660.

    Both systems are similar. The rx3600 has more I/O slots and more memory
    capacity.

    You might get better advice if you tell us more about your current DS25
    system. How many CPUs? How much memory? What sort of I/O adapters?
    Size and number of disks?

    Are there any performance bottlenecks on the current system that you'd
    like to eliminate?

    Any 3rd-party software dependencies?

    We recommend V8.3-1H1, not V8.3, on the Integrity servers, unless you
    have some particular dependence on V8.3. You can order new systems with
    either version. Both versions interoperate with V8.3 alpha.

    You should plan for an extra network drop and tcpip address for each
    Integrity server's Management Processor (MP). This gives the most
    flexibility. (Access via serial port is also possible.) The MP
    provides system monitoring and control (power control, hardware status
    logs, etc.) as well as console access to the EFI shell and OPA0: on VMS.
    It's like the SRM console on an Alpha system, with the added benefit of
    network access, multiple simultaneous connections, and (limited) web
    access.

    If you have clusters now, you can add Integrity servers to your existing
    cluster to ease migration. If you don't have clusters, I believe there
    is a migration program that can provide you temporary cluster licenses,
    for both the old and new system, at no cost. (I don't have any ordering
    information for this.)

    -- Robert
    (rx3600 project leader for OpenVMS)

  7. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    On 24 Mar, 14:52, Chuck Aaron wrote:
    > If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you share
    > your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25
    > running
    > vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >
    > Thank you in Advance,
    >
    > Chuck


    While Robert and Kerry will obviously have good advice, my experience
    suggests double your memory, then double it again when going Alpha to
    Integrity. If you don't absolutely needs lots of card slots then I'd
    seriously consider whether it's worth going for the rx3600 over the
    rx2660. The rx2660 is a nice bit of kit and is outnumbering our
    rx3600 sales many to almost none - purely because of price.

    If you need the extra slots, it can be worth going for the rx6600
    instead as that gives you more CPU and memory expansion space. It's a
    pricier box though.

    Remember that you get graphics built in on the rx2660 too.

    VMS 8.3 means that you don't get any console display on the VGA
    monitor when booting. You can try, but the system crashes part way
    through boot if the VGA is set to primary. V8.3-1H1 gives you this
    functionality back, though it means you can't use the console through
    the iLO as the OPA0: device gets locked to the graphics adapter and
    doesn't swap back.

    Steve

  8. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Hi,

    > If anyone is running the RX3660 or better server with VMS 8.3, can you
    > share
    > your experience and comments. I am considering moving from an Alpha DS25
    > running
    > vms 8.3 to the Itanium.
    >
    > Thank you in Advance,
    >
    > Chuck


    I'll second Steve's advice and strongly suggest you consider an rx2660. It
    has the same CPU as the rx3660 but is much cheaper. The extra RAM and PCI
    slots in the rx3660 come at a very high price.

    You don't give any details about your DS25 configuration but I suggest you
    should have 8GB RAM in your Integrity server (4GB is the minmum to get real
    work done, in my experience). You'll find the inbuilt SAS controller and
    drives to be a lot quicker than anything internal the DS25 but of course if
    your DS25 is using a SAN then the I/O performance probably won't change that
    much.

    In general the Integrity servers are much faster than the DS-series
    AlphaServers (the only ones I have an direct experience of).

    Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst other
    things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage peripherals become
    an option. (The hardware of course has alwways supported USB 2.0 devices
    but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed operation.)

    Regards,

    Jeremy Begg
    


  9. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg wrote:

    > Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    > other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    > peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    > supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    > operation.)
    >


    Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    interface?

    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  10. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3


    "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    newsp.t8olulrchv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >
    >> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    >> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    >> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    >> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    >> operation.)
    >>

    >
    > Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    > interface?
    >
    > --
    > PL/I for OpenVMS
    > www.kednos.com



    IMHO, no. USB 1.1 is too slow for any disk, IMHO.


  11. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:12:25 -0700, Jilly wrote:

    >
    > "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    > newsp.t8olulrchv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    >>> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    >>> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    >>> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    >>> operation.)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    >> interface?
    >>
    >> -- PL/I for OpenVMS
    >> www.kednos.com

    >
    >
    > IMHO, no. USB 1.1 is too slow for any disk, IMHO.


    I was referring to 2.0



    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  12. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3


    "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    newsp.t8out8vahv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 10:12:25 -0700, Jilly wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Tom Linden" wrote in message
    >> newsp.t8olulrchv4qyg@murphus.hsd1.ca.comcast.net...
    >>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    >>>> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    >>>> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    >>>> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    >>>> operation.)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    >>> interface?
    >>>
    >>> -- PL/I for OpenVMS
    >>> www.kednos.com

    >>
    >>
    >> IMHO, no. USB 1.1 is too slow for any disk, IMHO.

    >
    > I was referring to 2.0
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > PL/I for OpenVMS
    > www.kednos.com


    IMHO it is the same, USB of any sort is too slow and doesn't meet my
    criteria for 'reasonable backup device'. USB is OK for kb, mouse, serial
    but that's it.


  13. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Hi Tom,

    > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >
    >> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    >> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    >> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    >> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    >> operation.)
    >>

    >
    > Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    > interface?


    A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0 interfaces.

    You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a Firewire
    interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.

    And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.

    Regards,

    Jeremy Begg
    (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)


  14. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Hi Tom,

    > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >
    >> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    >> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    >> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    >> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    >> operation.)
    >>

    >
    > Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    > interface?


    A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0 interfaces.

    You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a Firewire
    interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.

    And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.

    Regards,

    Jeremy Begg
    (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)


  15. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Jeremy Begg wrote:
    > Hi Tom,
    >
    >> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box;
    >>> amongst other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap
    >>> storage peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has
    >>> alwways supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to
    >>> low-speed operation.)
    >>>

    >>
    >> Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    >> interface?

    >
    >
    > A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0
    > interfaces.
    >
    > You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    > cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a Firewire
    > interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.
    >
    > And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    > Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Jeremy Begg
    > (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)
    >


    We back up our development cluster (3 Alpha, 1 VAX, 1 Itanium) to
    external USB hard disks. About 20 disks, many quite old and small,
    it all fits easily on a single 300GB(?) disk. I think we have
    about 3 of them we cycle through. It isn't particularly fast, but
    we run incrementals overnight, and image backups occasionally on
    weekends, so time doesn't matter much. (Since it is a development
    cluster, not production, we don't worry too much about about online
    backups! See other thread!)

    We have system disk backups on 8mm (Alpha server 1200), DAT (Alpha
    3000-300) and TK70(!) (VAX 4000-200), so we can recover if all
    else fails. We did lose the system disk on the VAX and successfully
    recovered it from the USB backups last fall. It was fairly
    complicated and took a while, but we don't use the VAX much, so
    no one minded.

    The VAX CPU, no longer on maintenance, had died. Got a "new" one
    on Ebay, installed it (after the system had been down a few weeks),
    and a few minutes after booting, it crashed and wouldn't reboot.
    It took a while to determine that it was in fact the system
    disk and not the new CPU that died, and, mostly to test the CPU
    because I didn't want to risk the possibly okay system disk, I
    installed VMS V7.3 on an old scratch disk. It installed and
    booted up okay, and I could verify all the other disks were fine,
    but the system disk (RZ29 on a HSD10 DSSI-SCSI controller) was
    really and truly dead, so I replaced it and restored the system
    disk via the NI cluster from the Itanium's USB external disk, then
    booted the replacement RZ29. Without the cluster configured on the
    spare disk, I probably would have had to restore the TK70 system
    disk backup, but I think it turned out to be easier and quicker to
    do a fresh install from CD and manually reconfigure the cluster.
    Just had to get it able to join and see the MSCP-served disks
    from the rest of the cluster. I'm not sure if the HSD presents
    the same disk geometry to the host as a direct-connect SCSI
    disk would have, but if so, another option would have been to
    insert a "new" RZ29 into a slot on one of the Alphas and then
    restore the USB backups (image plus incrementals) to it, then
    dismount and install in the HSD10 shelf. I think the HSD steals
    some blocks for metadata. If at the end, ana/disk/repair would
    probably fix it. If at the beginning or somewhere in the middle,
    the disk would look completely bonkers on the VAX.

    --
    John Santos
    Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    781-861-0670 ext 539

  16. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    John Santos wrote:
    > Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >
    >> Hi Tom,
    >>
    >>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box;
    >>>> amongst other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap
    >>>> storage peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has
    >>>> alwways supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to
    >>>> low-speed operation.)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    >>> interface?

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0
    >> interfaces.
    >>
    >> You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    >> cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a Firewire
    >> interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.
    >>
    >> And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    >> Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.
    >>
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Jeremy Begg
    >> (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)
    >>

    >
    > We back up our development cluster (3 Alpha, 1 VAX, 1 Itanium) to
    > external USB hard disks. About 20 disks, many quite old and small,
    > it all fits easily on a single 300GB(?) disk. I think we have
    > about 3 of them we cycle through. It isn't particularly fast, but
    > we run incrementals overnight, and image backups occasionally on
    > weekends, so time doesn't matter much. (Since it is a development
    > cluster, not production, we don't worry too much about about online
    > backups! See other thread!)
    >
    > We have system disk backups on 8mm (Alpha server 1200), DAT (Alpha
    > 3000-300) and TK70(!) (VAX 4000-200), so we can recover if all
    > else fails.



    Have you tested restoring from 8mm? 8mm may have improved since I last
    used it but my experience was that it was unreliable even with so called
    "data grade" tapes. YMMV!


  17. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Before anyone tries this OpenVMS does not support USB DAT drives.
    If you plug one in, it will look enough like a USB disk to OpenVMS that
    we will bind it to the USB disk driver. It should not crash your system
    but it also will not work.

    We have no plans to support USB DAT drives.


    Forrest Kenney
    OpenVMS group




    Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >
    > Hi Tom,
    >
    > > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg wrote:
    > >
    > >> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box; amongst
    > >> other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap storage
    > >> peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has alwways
    > >> supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to low-speed
    > >> operation.)
    > >>

    > >
    > > Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    > > interface?

    >
    > A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0 interfaces.
    >
    > You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    > cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a Firewire
    > interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.
    >
    > And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    > Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > Jeremy Begg
    > (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)


  18. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Hi,

    Having just about finished the implementation of a mission-critical system
    migration from Alpha to Integrity (rx6600s and rx2660s) then I'm really
    quite impressed with the performance of the rx family. The 6600 is a very
    capable box. So is the 2660.

    As for 3660 v 2660 - it depends on your probable maximum requirements and
    how much headroom you want to pay for. 32GB memory might sound a lot, but if
    you have applications that can burn memory for buffering and you can trade
    memory for performance improvements then you might well find that lots of
    memory really helps. We tried some interesting tests with DECram in a 192GB
    rx6600 for a very specific workload - and it was pretty good. If you have
    the budget / space etc. I'd probably go for the 6600 rather than the 3660.
    However, as always, it all depends on your workload and what you need to
    deliver for throughput and response times.

    Just as important is the surrounding infrastructure, especially the storage.
    Moving from 1Gbps FC with HSG80s to 4Gbps FC with EVA4100s has given a
    massive improvement in IO capability. The MSL4048 with the FC Ultrium LTO4
    drives is a massive step up as well - we're seeing around 100Mbyte/sec
    throughput to tape using BACKUP.

    On the network front - use lots of NICs and split the protocols across them.
    That's another big improvement area for performance.

    Use V8.3-1H1 by the way. It's a little bit quicker than V8.3 on the FC IO
    front because of some driver and internals improvements. It also has a
    number of other improvements, like the USB V2 support.

    http://www.downloads.xdelta.co.uk/hp...tcher-v1_2.pdf
    might be useful. It's the slide set from the VMS technical update in Utrecht
    back on October last year.

    --
    Cheers, Colin.
    Legacy = Stuff that works properly!



  19. Re: RX3600 and VMS 8.3

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > John Santos wrote:
    >
    >> Jeremy Begg wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi Tom,
    >>>
    >>>> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:34:53 -0700, Jeremy Begg
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Make sure you install OpenVMS V8.3-1H1 on your Integrity box;
    >>>>> amongst other things it gives you USB 2.0 so a range of cheap
    >>>>> storage peripherals become an option. (The hardware of course has
    >>>>> alwways supported USB 2.0 devices but OpenVMS restricted it to
    >>>>> low-speed operation.)
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Are there any reasonable backup devices that operate over the USB
    >>>> interface?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> A number of vendors, including HP, make DAT tape drives with USB 2.0
    >>> interfaces.
    >>>
    >>> You could also look at Iomega's REV drive, which uses removable disk
    >>> cartridges of 35GB or 70GB capacity. I've got old one with a
    >>> Firewire interface here on a Mac and it seems to work quite well.
    >>>
    >>> And of course there is a wide choice of external hard drives by
    >>> Seagate/Maxtor, Western Digital, Hitachi, LaCie, etc.
    >>>
    >>> Regards,
    >>>
    >>> Jeremy Begg
    >>> (replace nospam by jeremy to reply via email)
    >>>

    >>
    >> We back up our development cluster (3 Alpha, 1 VAX, 1 Itanium) to
    >> external USB hard disks. About 20 disks, many quite old and small,
    >> it all fits easily on a single 300GB(?) disk. I think we have
    >> about 3 of them we cycle through. It isn't particularly fast, but
    >> we run incrementals overnight, and image backups occasionally on
    >> weekends, so time doesn't matter much. (Since it is a development
    >> cluster, not production, we don't worry too much about about online
    >> backups! See other thread!)
    >>
    >> We have system disk backups on 8mm (Alpha server 1200), DAT (Alpha
    >> 3000-300) and TK70(!) (VAX 4000-200), so we can recover if all
    >> else fails.

    >
    >
    >
    > Have you tested restoring from 8mm? 8mm may have improved since I last
    > used it but my experience was that it was unreliable even with so called
    > "data grade" tapes. YMMV!
    >


    Yes. 8mm is our 3rd level backup. (There are also backups to NFS on a Sun
    that are then backed up to DLT.) But it used to be our primary backup and
    we were able to restore images from them on several occasions, and more
    often retrieved individual files and directories. The drives have been
    pretty unreliable... We've probably been through about 5 or 6 of them
    over the years. But we've always been able to restore when we had to.

    --
    John Santos
    Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.
    781-861-0670 ext 539

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