VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. - VMS

This is a discussion on VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign. - VMS ; In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >>>> That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first >>>> create one logical i ...

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Thread: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

  1. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article <47dac0fe$0$5644$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
    > In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:
    >>Bob Koehler wrote:
    >>> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:
    >>>> That was not was I wrote. I asked about the suggestion to first
    >>>> create one logical i system table, then "copy" that logical in the
    >>>> SYLOGIN to the process table. Why not create it in the first place
    >>>> in the process table in the SYLOGICAL ?
    >>>
    >>> If SYLOGICAL creates a process table logical name, it will go away
    >>> when booting is finished and the process that runs SYLOGICAL exits.

    >>
    >>I corrected that in another post to SYLOGIN. Of course SYLOGICAL
    >>has nothing to do with this.
    >>
    >>>
    >>> Putting it in SYLOGIN won't help processes created with run/detach
    >>> or similar means.

    >>
    >>Doesn't LOGINOUT.EXE run SYLOGIN.COM ?
    >>I thought we agreed on that LOGINOUT.EXE was the
    >>correct way to run/detached.

    >
    > Yes.


    No. LOGINOUT.EXE does not always run SYLOGIN.COM

    (It does not do so for sub-processes)

    No. We do not agree that LOGINOUT.EXE is the correct way to run/detach

    (What if you do not want or need a CLI?)

  2. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    Tom Wade wrote:
    >> It has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1":
    >> $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1

    >
    > I can't understand the thinking here. Surely it would have been just as
    > easily to query LNM$FILE_DEV as LNM$PROCESS ?



    While Mr Deninger admitted it was a "Great conspiracy", I disagree. This
    was a much simpler issue. As part of his education on VMS, a indian
    support newbie was given an assignment to use SYS$TRNLNM on a specific
    table. They chose a little used utility (MAIL) to get him to play with
    and prove he was able to read an english manual and use SYS$TRNLNM
    .. They looked up a random request in some database and found this one
    wanting to filter the ~ character. And that became the newbie's assignment.

    There is absolutely no conspiracy here.

    :-)

  3. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    AEF wrote:

    > Seconded. I thought the whole point of having process, job, group, and
    > system logical names and the different access modes is that you can
    > define a global value in the system


    Just be thankful they didn't decide that the process logical would have
    to be defined in /EXEC mode to ensure nobody could tamper with MAIL's
    behaviour without privileges.


  4. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

    > I can set, for example, the editor on a per-process basis. What would be
    > the reason for having to preclude using the user's mail profile in lieu of
    > a process logical?


    Changing the MAIL profile would probably be a major issue. It would also
    require changing MAIL to incorporate new SET commands, update the HELP
    to reflect the new options etc etc. Not sure if they could operate "new"
    MAIL on old unconverterd profiles, so they would also need to include a
    mail profuile converter during the upgrade process, and this would causd
    problems for clusters with 7.3 and 8.3

    The indian worker bees are not at that level of VMS expertise yet. They
    are just learning about logical names. Given time, they will be given
    permission to thinker with more important parts of VMS.

    :-) :-)

  5. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

    > This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm!
    > Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received
    > VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to
    > do so.


    I have just sent him a personal email containing the ~ and curly
    brackets. So the above message is no longer applicable ;-)

    Seriously, the curly brtackets are quite common when exchanging snipped
    of source code (or whole .C files (and pascal also uses it, so does HTML
    for CSS and I am sure a whole bunch of other lnaguages)

  6. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:

    > VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if
    > you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about
    > how they read their email?



    We have been repeatedly told that VMS Mail is not a priority for
    upgrades because we are supposed to be using modern clients on a
    workstation OS (remember that the onwers of VMS have decided that VMS is
    a batch engine now, no longer an interactive OS).


    As a VMS only solution, you can use netscape/mozilla which has
    integrated pop/imap clients. And while old by world statndards, it is
    still considered "new" on VMS.

  7. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    As a solution to this problem, I suggest the following:

    A logical name defined any way (from process to cluster, from normal to
    exec etc). It would contain 256 coma separated values (or 256 separate
    translations for that logical).


    The first value would be the numerical ASCII representation of the
    character to be displayed if a NULL character is encountered in the
    message. Second value would be what to display if 0x01 is encountered in
    the message and so forth.

    If the value is empty, then no translation is made.


    Sure, you could mess with users and define all characters to be
    displayed as a "&" :-)

    But you could also have in the table, translations of all accented
    characters to their non accented counterparts, and decide which
    non-printable characters are filtered. (you could allow to be
    passed unfiltered if you wanted for instance.

  8. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    After much thinking, I have found the conspiracy hidden in all this:

    This change will force all system managers to add a $DEFINE/PROCESS line
    in SYLOGIN.COM and as a result, it will result in the creation of a lot
    more logical names which require more memory and thus force the
    remaining HP customers to buy more memory from HP :-) :-) :-) :-)

  9. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >
    >
    >>This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm!
    >>Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received
    >>VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to
    >>do so.

    >
    >
    > I have just sent him a personal email containing the ~ and curly
    > brackets. So the above message is no longer applicable ;-)
    >
    > Seriously, the curly brtackets are quite common when exchanging snipped
    > of source code (or whole .C files (and pascal also uses it, so does HTML
    > for CSS and I am sure a whole bunch of other lnaguages)


    But I didn't receive it with VMS MAIL! I use Netscape Mail on Windoze
    for my personal mail, reading newsgroups, etc.

    I haven't used VMS to send or receive mail since August 2004 when I left
    my last job!


  10. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > As a solution to this problem, I suggest the following:
    >
    > A logical name defined any way (from process to cluster, from normal to
    > exec etc). It would contain 256 coma separated values (or 256 separate
    > translations for that logical).
    >
    >
    > The first value would be the numerical ASCII representation of the
    > character to be displayed if a NULL character is encountered in the
    > message. Second value would be what to display if 0x01 is encountered in
    > the message and so forth.
    >
    > If the value is empty, then no translation is made.
    >
    >
    > Sure, you could mess with users and define all characters to be
    > displayed as a "&" :-)
    >
    > But you could also have in the table, translations of all accented
    > characters to their non accented counterparts, and decide which
    > non-printable characters are filtered. (you could allow to be
    > passed unfiltered if you wanted for instance.


    That would be nice. Years ago, when I read INFO-VAX instead of
    comp.os.vms, I wondered how to pronounce Vajhxj. :-)


  11. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > After much thinking, I have found the conspiracy hidden in all this:
    >
    > This change will force all system managers to add a $DEFINE/PROCESS line
    > in SYLOGIN.COM and as a result, it will result in the creation of a lot
    > more logical names which require more memory and thus force the
    > remaining HP customers to buy more memory from HP :-) :-) :-) :-)


    A dastardly plot!!


  12. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    On Mar 14, 5:22*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Tom Wade wrote:
    > >> *It has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1":
    > >> * $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1

    >
    > > I can't understand the thinking here. *Surely it would have been just as
    > > easily to query LNM$FILE_DEV as LNM$PROCESS ?

    >
    > While Mr Deninger admitted it was a "Great conspiracy", I disagree. This
    > was a much simpler issue. As part of his education on VMS, a indian
    > support newbie was given an assignment to use SYS$TRNLNM on a specific
    > table. They chose a little used utility (MAIL) to get him to play with
    > and prove he was able to read an english manual and use SYS$TRNLNM
    > . They looked up a random request in some database and found this one
    > wanting to filter the ~ character. And that became the newbie's assignment..
    >
    > There is absolutely no conspiracy here.
    >
    > :-)



  13. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > After much thinking, I have found the conspiracy hidden in all this:
    >
    > This change will force all system managers to add a $DEFINE/PROCESS line
    > in SYLOGIN.COM and as a result, it will result in the creation of a lot
    > more logical names which require more memory and thus force the
    > remaining HP customers to buy more memory from HP :-) :-) :-) :-)


    Right then, only do that for those users that has said that
    they *are* going to use VMS-mail as their main mail-tool. Let's
    say by adding a particular identifier to theirs UAF records and
    checking for the identifier in SYLOGIN before defining the logical.

    Now, you'll end up with *VERY* few process logicals created, since
    very few real VMS "users" use VMS as their main mail-tool...

    Finaly, /PROCESS is the default for DEFINE, not ?

    Jan-Erik.

  14. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    On Mar 14, 5:22*pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > Tom Wade wrote:
    > >> *It has to be a process logical name, and it has to have value "1":
    > >> * $ DEFINE/PROCESS MAIL$FILTER 1

    >
    > > I can't understand the thinking here. *Surely it would have been just as
    > > easily to query LNM$FILE_DEV as LNM$PROCESS ?

    >
    > While Mr Deninger admitted it was a "Great conspiracy", I disagree. This
    > was a much simpler issue. As part of his education on VMS, a indian
    > support newbie was given an assignment to use SYS$TRNLNM on a specific
    > table. They chose a little used utility (MAIL) to get him to play with


    I saw the smiley.
    But you know the thing about poking fun is that there is always this
    element underneat...

    Anyway...
    I happened to sit next to Robert at the lunch table today.
    He confided that it was in fact a 'Dying Swan Act' from a decade+
    experienced OpenVMS sustaining support engineer. She left not too long
    ago. And the change was provoked/triggered/jousted by a multy-decade
    experienced OpenVMS engineer under the guise of security concerns.
    It's still wrong and it sucks (IMnsHO), but it was not an immature act
    by a novice.

    In fact, today while walking the hallowed hallways of Spitbrook road
    possibly for a last time I heard nothing but good about the support/
    engineering skills of the Indian entensions to the OpenVMS team.

    Sure there can be communication problems, but there are some really
    good resource out there and they are helping you here and now to make
    OpenVMS become a better product whether you like it or not.

    Off to Boston Billards, Nashua. Happy Hour!

    Cheers,
    Hein

  15. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article <47DAC6F3.2090503@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    > Oh? You hadn't noticed?? I've got my copy and sufficient hardware to
    > last as long as I'm likely to live! That's enough for me.
    >
    > And it has been obvious to all but VMS fanatics that VMS has been dying
    > for many years now. I think I've said before that DEC's failure/refusal
    > to compete in the workstation market had a great deal to do with it.


    VMS mail has been working perfectly well for me, right up to the point
    until my work email _required_ Outlook so that it could run the functions
    (+macros?) necessary to automatically accept meeting requests.

    I'm about to trash the whole auto-accept thing and go back to VMS mail
    regardless. It's sure nice with a large inbox to be able to type
    DIR/NEW/FROM=sender and not have to put up with all the machinery that
    Outlook (and other gui based clients) impose on you to do this.

    > How many working VMS systems are left these days? Hobbyists don't count!


    I still use character based email extensively here on EISNER, and I _do_
    get URL's in emails.

    This whole thing is to fix a non-problem. None of us, apparently, have
    heard of a terminal emulator in which tilde is evil. [Although, I do
    have to admit that if I use ssh and have somehow screwed up the echoing
    so _I_ echo back to the host, then a tilde could be used to send control
    sequences to the emulator. But I'm not likely to do that given the
    tremendous volume of output - the famous Huh? What? loop - I'd be getting
    as a result of the unending circular echos].

    --
    George Cornelius Remove BEGIN/END to reply


  16. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article <47DAD59A.7010502@comcast.net>,
    "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    >>
    >>> In article <47DABD5F.2060003@comcast.net>,
    >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    >>>
    >>>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm!
    >>>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or
    >>>> received VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt
    >>>> the need to do so.
    >>>

    >>
    >> You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last
    >> sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person.
    >> I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so
    >> on, thought...
    >>
    >>>
    >>> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You
    >>> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it?
    >>> Interesting.
    >>>
    >>> bill
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Never using VMS mail.
    >> And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ?
    >>
    >> > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it?

    >>
    >> Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-)
    >>
    >> I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they
    >> don't switch to Mac) doing that...
    >>
    >> Jan-Erik.

    >
    > I used to use VMS Mail with the JAMS Batch Scheduler. I had set up JAMS
    > in such a way that when a batch job failed, JAMS would send E-mail to
    > the responsible party. In the case of System jobs; e.g. disk backups,
    > these e-Mails were sent to my pager or, later on, my cellular phone. I
    > would then log in from home and take any necessary corrective action or,
    > in extreme cases, jump in my car and drive the ten miles to work if
    > there was no one there who could mount a tape of push a button for me.
    >
    > JAMS had extensive error handling capabilities. The ability to send
    > e-Mail when a job ended abnormally was a BIG plus.
    >
    > Ordinary business and personal mail was handled via Netscape (and still
    > is). It may be old but so am I, and I'm used to it.


    You know, I hadn't thought of it when the idea of using VT-terminals
    for text based email was laughed here a few messages ago but I just
    had to quell a minor riot when I threatened to remove Pine and Elm
    from our servers. Seems that the use of text based email clients is
    not limited to VMS hobbyists and fanatics. :-) And, no, I was not
    able to eliminate these products from our stable even though we offer
    POP, IMAP and Web access to email as alternatives.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  17. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes:

    > You can set a process logical once for all users as system manager.
    > I do not think you can do that with the Mail profile.
    >
    > By having it in SYLOGIN.COM there is nothing additional to be done
    > when a new user is created.


    Not all systems are configured with SYS$SYLOGIN. Some are
    arrange to avoid login overhead.

  18. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article <47DABD5F.2060003@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:

    > This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm!
    > Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received
    > VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to
    > do so.


    I regularly receive email containing URLs with an embedded tilde,
    which I have to replace after copy and paste.

  19. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    In article <640le4F267268U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >You know, I hadn't thought of it when the idea of using VT-terminals
    >for text based email was laughed here a few messages ago but I just
    >had to quell a minor riot when I threatened to remove Pine and Elm
    >from our servers. Seems that the use of text based email clients is
    >not limited to VMS hobbyists and fanatics. :-) And, no, I was not
    >able to eliminate these products from our stable even though we offer
    >POP, IMAP and Web access to email as alternatives.


    I read all my email in VMS mail which is text based. I don't have to be
    worried about some virus attachment and I don't have to be concerned that
    my 8 yr old is looking over my shoulder if I should happen to open one of
    those SPAM emails with pornographic picture attachments. If I'm emailed
    a photo or some other MIME attachment, I first check it over and then it
    is moved to a special account (I have a logical MIME established which is
    equated to DEVICENAME:[USERNAME]MAIL.MAI) using MAIL> MOVE NEWMAIL MIME
    I then can read it from my PowerBook email which is configured to get the
    email from this special account. It comes in very handy when I'm emailed
    VMS crash dumps in M$ W(ie)RD format.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  20. Re: VMS Mail translates incoming tilde character into a dollar sign.

    On Mar 14, 1:27 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Jan-Erik Söderholm writes:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > >> In article <47DABD5F.2060...@comcast.net>,
    > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes:
    > >>> This subject is certainly being debated with a great deal of enthusiasm!
    > >>> Frankly, I don't see why. I don't believe I have EVER sent or received
    > >>> VMS Mail containing a tilde character. Nor have I ever felt the need to
    > >>> do so.

    >
    > > You're right of course. It must have been > 15 years since I last
    > > sent or received a personal mail using VMS-Mail. Person-to-person.
    > > I do have some automatied routines that sends notifications and so
    > > on, thought...

    >
    > >> You have never sent anyone an email with a personal URL: in it? You
    > >> can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it? Interesting.

    >
    > >> bill

    >
    > > Never using VMS mail.
    > > And *sending* isn't a problem, is it ?

    >
    > Well, it is if you expect the person on the other end to actually see
    > usable information. I know for a fact that if a somneone here got an
    > Email that displayed a "$" in a URL: they wanted to get to they would
    > type exactly what they saw on the screen. And then come to me when it
    > doesn't work. :-) Or are you saying no one is still using VMS anyway
    > so it is a non-problem.
    >
    >
    >
    > > > You can't see any time in the future when oyu might need to do it?

    >
    > > Using VT-based VMS-Mail? In the future? Joke of the week... :-) :-)

    >
    > OK, you are admiting that VMS is dead or at least dying. I thought
    > we had a bunch of people here who still sing the praises of VMS with
    > VT-terminals. What else is supported as a VMS only solution? And if
    > you send email to a known VMS user, what assumptions do you make about
    > how they read their email?


    For this VMS should be abandonded? Because of a single thing: mail?

    >
    >
    >
    > > I can't see anyone but some die-hard hobbyists (if they
    > > don't switch to Mac) doing that...

    >
    > So, the way I see it, the concensus seems to be that VMS can't be
    > used without other systems running other OSes to provide all the
    > missing pieces. So then, why bother with VMS instead of a homogenous
    > installation with less complexity and upkeep? I believe end of the
    > era is in sight.


    So I guess we should all switch everything to Windows.

    And Outlook is something to brag about? This is a selling point?

    Bill, what does Unix offer for mail? Are office people going to be
    running from a Unix prompt?

    AEF

    >
    > bill
    >
    > --
    > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    > University of Scranton |
    > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include



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