Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols - VMS

This is a discussion on Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols - VMS ; Main, Kerry wrote: > Well, pure personal opinion, but at some point I believe the industry is > going to realize that it can no longer afford these "industry standard" > OS's like Windows and Linux - especially for mission ...

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Thread: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

  1. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > Well, pure personal opinion, but at some point I believe the industry is
    > going to realize that it can no longer afford these "industry standard"
    > OS's like Windows and Linux - especially for mission critical workloads.


    Consider that even today, VMS is rarely considered by the majority of IT
    shops. And by the time they realise Windows is costing them a lot more
    than other systems, VMS may no longer be available to new customers and
    its features will have lagged far more than now and will truly be only
    good enough for legacy apps.

    HP has many times re-enforced the message that VMS is only for existing
    customers. And even within the VMS group, the message is very strong
    that VMS is only good for back end , behind the scenes, raw server stuff
    like database engine and they'll argue that there is no demand for small
    systems, workstation, applications etc.

    Now that the message is sinking in to the remaining VMS customer
    base, your speeches should really be focused on convincing those
    customers HP doesn't want to lose that there is no hurry in dumping VMS.

    And when you consider that HP told Cerner to drop VMS, it makes you
    wonder if HP even cares about trying to retain VMS customers.


    The ship has stayed afloat for 15 years because the amount of water it
    was taking in wasn't huge (until the Alpha genocide). But now, we are
    getting close to the point where no matter what, it will sink and sink
    fast.

    Hurd may not have used explosives to blow holes into the VMS hull like
    Curly/Carly did with the murder of Alpha, but he hasn't exactly lifted
    any finger to try to plug the holes and seems to have condoned Livermore
    and Stallard continuing their policies of telling the world that the
    focus is on trying to retain the installed base when they move off VMS.

    And Hurd certainly hasn't fired anyone for forgetting to issue a
    corporate news release to celebrate the 30th anniversary of VMS. Hurd
    has now been in office long enough that we have to conclude that he
    condones the current treatment of VMS.

    When you consider how HP corporsate is treating VMS, statements from the
    lower ranks such as you that paint a rosy picture for VMS don't have
    much credibility anymore. You can only deny the ship is sinking for so long.

    At this point in time, it would probably be far more honest for you guys
    to tell it like it is, admit that VMS is a dead end and just comfort
    people that maintenance/support will continue for VMS until x years.
    Honesty might allow you to retain more customers when they move off VMS.
    Lack of honesty will ensure more customers will have policies of no
    longer dealing with HP.

    The community would have gladly jumped in to help the VMS group convince
    HP to put back the resources and ma VMS deserved. But since the VMS
    employees kept denying there was any problem, no uprising could happen.

  2. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: December 30, 2007 5:12 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > Well, pure personal opinion, but at some point I believe the industry

    > is
    > > going to realize that it can no longer afford these "industry

    > standard"
    > > OS's like Windows and Linux - especially for mission critical

    > workloads.
    >
    > Consider that even today, VMS is rarely considered by the majority of
    > IT
    > shops. And by the time they realise Windows is costing them a lot more
    > than other systems, VMS may no longer be available to new customers and
    > its features will have lagged far more than now and will truly be only
    > good enough for legacy apps.
    >


    [sky is falling and black helicopter stuff snipped..]

    Like I (and others) have said before - nobody here is saying that
    marketing and other areas (past and present) discussed at length in this
    newsgroup could not have been done differently or be improved.

    However, the blind doom-and-gloom you portray without any recognition
    of some of the good things happening is also not beneficial to those
    in this newsgroup.

    Heck, getting Mark Hurd to do a personal video testimonial for a single
    product (remember that HP is a $100B+ company & has hundreds of products)
    was a major accomplishment by folks like Sue and others in BCS working
    with her.

    And here are some recent testimonial video'sall links are to HP site)

    http://tinyurl.com/2qjog6
    "See how Deutsche Börse, the largest financial exchange organization in
    the world, uses HP OpenVMS running on HP Integrity servers to keep their
    electronic markets up and running."

    http://tinyurl.com/2mt3cp - Acision and OpenVMS Blades
    "Acision uses HP OpenVMS running on HP Integrity servers & HP Blades to
    help deliver more than half of the world's text & multimedia messages &
    serve three quarters of all videomail users."

    http://tinyurl.com/34886x - Australian Stock Exchange & OpenVMS Integrity
    "Operating Australia's chief financial markets, the Australian Securities
    Exchange relies on HP OpenVMS to deliver products and services that play a
    major role in the economy down under."

    So, yes there is still lots to do, but lets also not lose sight of some
    Of the positive things happening as well.

    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  3. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    On Dec 30, 8:14 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    > > -----Original Message-----
    > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca]
    > > Sent: December 30, 2007 5:12 PM
    > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > > Protocols

    >
    > > Main, Kerry wrote:

    >
    > > > Well, pure personal opinion, but at some point I believe the industry

    > > is
    > > > going to realize that it can no longer afford these "industry

    > > standard"
    > > > OS's like Windows and Linux - especially for mission critical

    > > workloads.

    >
    > > Consider that even today, VMS is rarely considered by the majority of
    > > IT
    > > shops. And by the time they realise Windows is costing them a lot more
    > > than other systems, VMS may no longer be available to new customers and
    > > its features will have lagged far more than now and will truly be only
    > > good enough for legacy apps.

    >
    > [sky is falling and black helicopter stuff snipped..]
    >
    > Like I (and others) have said before - nobody here is saying that
    > marketing and other areas (past and present) discussed at length in this
    > newsgroup could not have been done differently or be improved.
    >
    > However, the blind doom-and-gloom you portray without any recognition
    > of some of the good things happening is also not beneficial to those
    > in this newsgroup.


    You're right. But what about your oft-repeated mantra of the industry
    waking up to how expensive it is to run VMware with Windows and Linux
    and employee counts and what not? How many years have you been telling
    us this? At my company they've been trying to converge to one OS for
    years. I never -- but wanted to -- ask them: Do you mean Windows,
    Linux, or which flavor of Unix -- when of course they *really* mean
    all three!!! And now there's a fourth: VMware. There's no sign of this
    stopping at my company. So when is it going to kick in already? After
    people like me become non-VMS workers and later retire?

    >
    > Heck, getting Mark Hurd to do a personal video testimonial for a single
    > product (remember that HP is a $100B+ company & has hundreds of products)
    > was a major accomplishment by folks like Sue and others in BCS working
    > with her.


    This was fantastic and I, for one, not only applauded it -- I jokingly
    took credit for it!

    >
    > And here are some recent testimonial video'sall links are to HP site)
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/2qjog6
    > "See how Deutsche Börse, the largest financial exchange organization in
    > the world, uses HP OpenVMS running on HP Integrity servers to keep their
    > electronic markets up and running."
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/2mt3cp- Acision and OpenVMS Blades
    > "Acision uses HP OpenVMS running on HP Integrity servers & HP Blades to
    > help deliver more than half of the world's text & multimedia messages &
    > serve three quarters of all videomail users."
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/34886x- Australian Stock Exchange & OpenVMS Integrity
    > "Operating Australia's chief financial markets, the Australian Securities
    > Exchange relies on HP OpenVMS to deliver products and services that play a
    > major role in the economy down under."


    These are nice, but we need more new customers.

    > So, yes there is still lots to do, but lets also not lose sight of some
    > Of the positive things happening as well.


    OK.

    [...]

    AEF

  4. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry wrote:


    > However, the blind doom-and-gloom you portray without any recognition
    > of some of the good things happening is also not beneficial to those
    > in this newsgroup.



    HP knows exactly what it is doing when it prohibits the marketing of VMS
    outside the installed base and codones statements from
    Stallard/Livermore that confirm that they are only interested in the VMS
    customer base.

    And remember that statements from Stallard/Livermore made to the press
    have far more credibility and weight than anything I say here. If you're
    not happy with my statements, perhaps you shoudl be asking
    Stallard/Livermore why they make such statements that essentially cnfirm
    HP is only interested in moving VMS customers to other HP products ?
    Perhaps you should be asking them why HP has a policy of prohibiting (or
    making it very hard) to make any VMS marketing targetted outside the
    installed base ?





    And check out the roadmap. Once you remove changes made to accomodate
    new HP hardware, licencing schemes and running VMS as an HP-UX
    application, there really isn't much left for real improvements. So the
    staff cuts made to VMS engineering are having quite an impact.




    > Heck, getting Mark Hurd to do a personal video testimonial for a single
    > product


    Which is a great accomplishement by Sue. Just imagine if Sue were
    allowed market VMS outside of the installed base. Sue is an extremely
    valuable resource, but its clear now that HP doesn't really allow Sue's
    full potential to be realised. Last year, there were still lots of hopes
    of Hurd getting involved and allowing VMS to grow.



    And that video is strategically important. This was a token action by
    Hurd to prevent anyone from claiming Hurd doesn't do anything for VMS.
    But the lack of a real press release to celebrate the 30th anniversary
    is more telling. (especially sicne HP made one for its calculators
    earlier this year).



    (remember that HP is a $100B+ company & has hundreds of products)

    And HP's slavery to Microsoft doesn't prevent HP from marketing
    calculators, ink etc etc etc. VMS is unique in that it is not allowed
    to use IT mainstream marketing.



    > So, yes there is still lots to do, but lets also not lose sight of some
    > Of the positive things happening as well.



    Musicians playing the violin until the very end on Titanic was also a
    very positive thing happening.

  5. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols


    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com]
    > Sent: December 30, 2007 10:16 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > On Dec 30, 8:14 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    > > > -----Original Message-----
    > > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca]
    > > > Sent: December 30, 2007 5:12 PM
    > > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > > > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > > > Protocols

    > >
    > > > Main, Kerry wrote:

    > >
    > > > > Well, pure personal opinion, but at some point I believe the

    > industry
    > > > is
    > > > > going to realize that it can no longer afford these "industry
    > > > standard"
    > > > > OS's like Windows and Linux - especially for mission critical
    > > > workloads.

    > >
    > > > Consider that even today, VMS is rarely considered by the majority

    > of
    > > > IT
    > > > shops. And by the time they realise Windows is costing them a lot

    > more
    > > > than other systems, VMS may no longer be available to new customers

    > and
    > > > its features will have lagged far more than now and will truly be

    > only
    > > > good enough for legacy apps.

    > >
    > > [sky is falling and black helicopter stuff snipped..]
    > >
    > > Like I (and others) have said before - nobody here is saying that
    > > marketing and other areas (past and present) discussed at length in

    > this
    > > newsgroup could not have been done differently or be improved.
    > >
    > > However, the blind doom-and-gloom you portray without any recognition
    > > of some of the good things happening is also not beneficial to those
    > > in this newsgroup.

    >
    > You're right. But what about your oft-repeated mantra of the industry
    > waking up to how expensive it is to run VMware with Windows and Linux
    > and employee counts and what not? How many years have you been telling
    > us this? At my company they've been trying to converge to one OS for
    > years. I never -- but wanted to -- ask them: Do you mean Windows,
    > Linux, or which flavor of Unix -- when of course they *really* mean
    > all three!!! And now there's a fourth: VMware. There's no sign of this
    > stopping at my company. So when is it going to kick in already? After
    > people like me become non-VMS workers and later retire?
    >


    Ok, simple scenario -

    If you are like most companies now who have implemented VMware, you are
    now running into the issue of how do we manage so many OS VM instances.
    In addition, you have only been able to reduce about 10-15% of the IT
    budget and that is due to some HW and DC related savings.

    Once you are done with about as much VMware as you can (VMware and
    virtualization in general is not for all environments), how will your CIO
    respond to the CEO's request for an additional 20-30% cut in IT expenses?

    As I stated before, to many companies are focusing on the "easy" way to
    show progress in reducing IT expenses - the next wave of cuts is when
    the real pain starts as you need to reduce the number of OS instances in
    order to reduce IT staffing which is 60-70% of the IT budget.

    And this means business Applic stacking or rationalization - both of which
    are huge, huge political landmines in a one bus app, one OS culture.

    [snip...]


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  6. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > And this means business Applic stacking or rationalization - both of which
    > are huge, huge political landmines in a one bus app, one OS culture.


    And what does this have to do with VMS ? When the above happens, then
    customers will demand that their application be written so they can
    co-exist with others in the same OS instance. If it can't be done on
    Windows, they will switch to Linux, AIX or Solaris.

    Since HP refuses to market VMS, and since the major applications are
    leaving VMS, you can't seriously expect many customers to migrate to VMS.

    So Mr Main, how to you spin to your customers the fact that HP got
    Cerner to drop VMS and move to HP-UX ?

  7. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: December 31, 2007 10:52 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > And this means business Applic stacking or rationalization - both of

    > which
    > > are huge, huge political landmines in a one bus app, one OS culture.

    >
    > And what does this have to do with VMS ? When the above happens, then
    > customers will demand that their application be written so they can
    > co-exist with others in the same OS instance. If it can't be done on
    > Windows, they will switch to Linux, AIX or Solaris.
    >
    > Since HP refuses to market VMS, and since the major applications are
    > leaving VMS, you can't seriously expect many customers to migrate to
    > VMS.
    >
    > So Mr Main, how to you spin to your customers the fact that HP got
    > Cerner to drop VMS and move to HP-UX ?


    Like any company, some things we can talk about publically, others we
    can not.

    However, Customers are free to express whatever they want to both
    Cerner and HP.

    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






  8. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry schrieb:

    >
    > Like any company, some things we can talk about publically, others we
    > can not.


    So VMS must be top secret within HP,
    because, funnily enough, your posts never
    mention anything about VMS, except your
    meaningless sig.


  9. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Michael Kraemer [mailto:M.Kraemer@gsi.de]
    > Sent: December 31, 2007 12:21 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > Main, Kerry schrieb:
    >
    > >
    > > Like any company, some things we can talk about publically, others we
    > > can not.

    >
    > So VMS must be top secret within HP,
    > because, funnily enough, your posts never
    > mention anything about VMS, except your
    > meaningless sig.


    If you had actually read the post, you would have noticed my comment was
    to JF's comments about Cerner.

    Perhaps you feel free to talk about your companies confidential things in
    public newsgroups, but in most companies, that is extremely bad news.

    Geezz.. I did not think I would have to explain that bit of basic
    newsgroup stuff.

    Ah well...



    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.





  10. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > If you had actually read the post, you would have noticed my comment was
    > to JF's comments about Cerner.


    A succesful OS vendor will have no problems bragging about all the wins
    it is making in attracting new customers, applications and ISVs. A
    succesful OS vendor wants to grow and will have no problems marketing
    their OS. A succesful OS vendor won't go to a key ISV and tell them to
    drop support for their platform.

    Palmer did that for the SWIFT software, but he told SWIFT that VMS had
    no future and that they should build their next generation software on
    something else than VMS. DEC really did expect to retain those customers
    by selling windows servers/support. They haven't.

    Did Hurd/Livermore/Stallard tell Cerner exactly the same thing as Palmer
    had told Swift ? (that would bring the "we'll continue the "plan of
    record" to a an incredible level of compliance with the plan of record
    set out by Palmer.)


    With ST400 (SWIFT), VMS had a toe hold in big blue banks that would have
    otherwise never considered VMS. That's gone now. At the time of that
    loss, VMS still have the hospital and military business as well as some
    portions of telecom, so the loss of banking wasn't mortal to VMS.

    But when you are down to VMS's niche being restricted to the hospital
    business and some remnant of older military contracts and some leftover
    telecom business not yet ported to unix, then losing the hospital
    business should be considered pretty serious.


    You may have some perfectly legitimate explanation. But as long as you
    or anyone else are prohibited from divulging that explanation, you need
    to accept the fact that HP's actions are seen as being against VMS
    because without that secret information, it is the only way we, the
    people who still care about VMS, can interpret HP's moves.

  11. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: December 31, 2007 2:10 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > If you had actually read the post, you would have noticed my comment

    > was
    > > to JF's comments about Cerner.

    >
    > A succesful OS vendor will have no problems bragging about all the wins
    > it is making in attracting new customers, applications and ISVs. A
    > succesful OS vendor wants to grow and will have no problems marketing
    > their OS. A succesful OS vendor won't go to a key ISV and tell them to
    > drop support for their platform.
    >
    > Palmer did that for the SWIFT software, but he told SWIFT that VMS had
    > no future and that they should build their next generation software on
    > something else than VMS. DEC really did expect to retain those
    > customers
    > by selling windows servers/support. They haven't.
    >


    [snip..]

    JF - not that I am or ever was a fan of Palmer, but the SWIFT decision had
    little to do with Digital and/or Palmer.

    Remember that SWIFT cut AIX at the same time.

    SWIFT (and in particular a couple of individuals) were into consolidating to
    fewer OS's and at that time Solaris was viewed as the answer to world hunger.


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.






  12. Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    Main, Kerry wrote:

    > Remember that SWIFT cut AIX at the same time.


    Wrong. SWIFT Terminal Services (the software arm of SWIFT) had cut other
    platforms for its "official" software package and had signed a deal with
    Digital in early 1990s or late 1980s to have VMS as its one stragetic
    platform.

    Other vendors had SWIFT-approved software packages, but they were not
    written nor supported by SWIFT. The SWIFT package was called ST400 and
    was generally viewed has having more features since it supported all
    message types and SWIFT garanteed that ST400 patches would be available
    in time for any network changes (usually twice a year when new/change
    message types would be put into production).

    SWIFT Terminal Services also had a special agreement with Digital for
    extra support/sales support (since those are considered mission critical
    for banks).

    When the time came to create SWIFT-II, SWIFT went to Digital and was
    told to not count on VMS. ST400 was maintained until all its functions
    were available on the new SWIFT-II platform. Most customers went to the
    Solaris version instead of Windows due to better quality, more features
    available and better support. In terms of disaster recovery, it was a
    step down from VMS, but customers had no choice since VMS was no longer
    supported by SWIFT.

    Had Palmer told SWIFT that VMS had a bright future and that Digital
    would start marketing it again etc etc, SWIFT might have stuck with VMS
    because it offered much better mission critical features.


  13. RE: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File Protocols

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca]
    > Sent: January 1, 2008 11:49 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: Samba Gains Legal Access to Microsoft Network File
    > Protocols
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >
    > > Remember that SWIFT cut AIX at the same time.

    >
    > Wrong. SWIFT Terminal Services (the software arm of SWIFT) had cut
    > other
    > platforms for its "official" software package and had signed a deal
    > with
    > Digital in early 1990s or late 1980s to have VMS as its one stragetic
    > platform.
    >


    It would appear that we have different sources. My source stated that
    the decision to move to Solaris was made by SWIFT and Digital had
    little or no feedback on this - same as for IBM and AIX.

    Btw, it looks like OpenVMS still has SWIFT presence - check out these
    new job openings in London: (note SWIFT reference)

    [typical caution applies here as I do not know this site. Perhaps
    someone could validate this?]

    http://tinyurl.com/2hjpo6
    " VMS Applications Consultants x 5 - Central London / The City -
    Investment Banking

    Key skills OpenVMS VMS C or VMS COBOL
    Environ. OpenVMS C COBOL INGRES ORACLE DCL OPENROAD VISUAK BASIC VB6
    DECFORMS ACMSVBA CLEARCASE BEA WEBLOGIC SWIFT TIBCO Rendezvous
    Our client's business is at the very heart of the London banking
    community and is a stable member and well regarded institution within
    city finance circles. Our client's IT systems help support the trading
    of items such as derivatives swaps and fixed income products. Our client
    wish to directly recruit 5 VMS Application Support Engineers.

    Key skills VMS OpenVMS VMS C VMS COBOL


    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.


    Regards

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