OT: One Laptop per Child - VMS

This is a discussion on OT: One Laptop per Child - VMS ; Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > That might be true, but I doubt that that is the motivation for those > behind the project. Considering the cost, I'm sure that one could spend > the equivalent on almost anything ...

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Thread: OT: One Laptop per Child

  1. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    > That might be true, but I doubt that that is the motivation for those
    > behind the project. Considering the cost, I'm sure that one could spend
    > the equivalent on almost anything else and get the children to school
    > with that as bait.



    It is wrong to assume that developping nations will follow the same path
    as that of the USA.

    They won't go with mechanical landline phones, to crossbar to DMS
    switches, they will go with digital mobile phones right away.

    They woN't go with books, they will go with digital content right away
    (much cheaper to distribute).

    Give the kids access to the internet and networking between them, and
    they will become somewhat computer literate and may hope to get jobs.

    Computer skills give someone the ability to particpate in the "global
    village" both socially and economically. Lack of such skills condemn
    them to 3rd world economic activity in their area (aka: status quo).

    Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending
    they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village.

  2. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >
    >
    >George Cook schrieb:
    >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >>>
    >>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC.
    >>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff
    >>>which is around in the WWW today.

    >>
    >>
    >> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement?
    >>

    >
    >I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic.
    >This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even
    >for other historical platforms left in the cold
    >as far as browsers are concerned.
    >
    >However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    >up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    >of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.
    >And as compared to the number of people working at M$ to spoil the
    >standards.


    I never realize how sadly true your last statement was until I started
    to update a certain web site. It had hundreds of PHP files and there
    are so many comments in the code about brain-damage in M$IE that it's
    probably 20% or more of the code.


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  3. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Michael Kraemer wrote:

    > However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    > up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    > of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.


    A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on
    ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser.

    This was the goal of HTML from the start.


    Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very
    fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota
    in no time.

    Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make
    layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not
    100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it).

    Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS.

    But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS
    sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories.


    Note that it took me quite a while to find the tricks to make
    thunderbird on the mac "standards compliant" (no html, no fancy text
    editor etc), and I have yet to figure out the way to remove the stupid
    colours in the text window (different colours for different quoting
    levels which make the actual text harder to read since the coloured text
    is the one that is most flashy).

  4. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article <475a7ef1$0$27828$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= writes:
    >
    > In mid 90's there was built a AlphaBook, as you surely know, but for
    > some reason it never became popular. IMHO the reason was exactly what
    > you mentioned; VMS vas not made available early enough on laptops.


    The Alpha laptops made by Tadpole were $14K US. Compare that to
    x86 laptops which topped out at about $5K US. Makes it easy to
    understand popularity.

    Tadpole had a niche business, they made laptops for non-Wintel,
    non-Macintosh systems for people who had to have them and could
    afford the niche price. We had their SPARC laptop running Solaris
    on one project.

    If you had to have Solairs, VMS, or something else that wasn't Wintel
    or Macintosh at the time, and you had to have it portable, you bought
    from Tadpole.


  5. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    > In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei
    > writes:
    >
    >> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    >> > Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self-appointed
    >> > gurus would read Cliff Stoll.
    >> >

    >>
    >> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ?

    >
    > Some sort of Linux.
    >


    So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that Linux.


  6. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    > George Cook schrieb:
    >> In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >>>
    >>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC.
    >>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff
    >>>which is around in the WWW today.

    >>
    >>
    >> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement?
    >>

    >
    > I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic.
    > This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even
    > for other historical platforms left in the cold
    > as far as browsers are concerned.
    >
    > However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    > up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    > of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.


    Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me.

    I am less impressed by not keeping up with cascading style sheets,
    but I don't know enough about those to see any security implications.

    But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free
    software.

  7. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article , JF Mezei writes:
    > Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >
    >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.

    >
    > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on
    > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser.
    >
    > This was the goal of HTML from the start.
    >
    >
    > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very
    > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota
    > in no time.


    Yes, Mosaic does all but a few obscure "pure" HTML V4 features. It
    would support those features if I ever found any web pages using them.
    "Pure" meaning any feature not needing Javascript, non-English fonts, etc.

    > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make
    > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not
    > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it).


    Support for iframes was added back in 2000 at version 3.6-1.

    > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS.
    >
    > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS
    > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories.



    George Cook
    WVNET

  8. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
    > In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >> George Cook schrieb:
    >>> In article , Michael Kraemer writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>Well, "official" Mosaic stopped at 2.7-sth IIRC.
    >>>>This version is unable to render most of the stuff
    >>>>which is around in the WWW today.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I am curious why you think "official" would be a requirement?
    >>>

    >>
    >> I'm well aware that you are the current maintainer of Mosaic.
    >> This is of course appreciated and I might consider it even
    >> for other historical platforms left in the cold
    >> as far as browsers are concerned.
    >>
    >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.

    >
    > Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me.
    >
    > I am less impressed by not keeping up with cascading style sheets,
    > but I don't know enough about those to see any security implications.


    Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be a "standard" library of
    code for cascading style sheets. The best I could find the last
    time I looked was a piece of code which parsed them into an internal
    format. The documentation for the code and internal format fit the
    usual standard these days (i.e., none). Even the css "standards"
    leave a lot to the imagination.

    Implementing a complete set of css code just for Mosaic is far beyond
    my means.

    > But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free
    > software.



    George Cook
    WVNET

  9. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article <5b520$475cffa6$cef8887a$8667@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei
    writes:

    > It is wrong to assume that developping nations will follow the same path
    > as that of the USA.


    True. I'm hoping they'll learn from our mistakes. :-)

    > They won't go with mechanical landline phones, to crossbar to DMS
    > switches, they will go with digital mobile phones right away.


    Yes. Not long ago, I walked out of an internet caf (from which I had
    logged in to my VMS cluster back home to check my email) and saw a
    donkey-drawn cart driving down the street---and the driver chatting on
    his mobile phone.

    > They woN't go with books, they will go with digital content right away
    > (much cheaper to distribute).
    >
    > Give the kids access to the internet and networking between them, and
    > they will become somewhat computer literate and may hope to get jobs.
    >
    > Computer skills give someone the ability to particpate in the "global
    > village" both socially and economically. Lack of such skills condemn
    > them to 3rd world economic activity in their area (aka: status quo).
    >
    > Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending
    > they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village.


    I don't want to repeat a book's worth of arguments here, but if one
    needs computer skills for almost all jobs (we're not talking system
    programming here, which is a niche market, just general computer
    skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned
    later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them
    into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket
    clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a
    primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards?

    Go back to the 1940s, say. Prophets and science-fiction writers are
    saying that in the future not only will there be a COLOUR television in
    EVERY house, but sometimes even SEVERAL. And everyone will be able to
    afford one. Ergo, job of the future: television repairman. Wrong. The
    only way for them to become cheap and commonplace is if servicing them
    is not expensive or not necessary.


  10. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    > skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned
    > later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them
    > into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket
    > clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a
    > primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards?



    You are making the assumption that they are easy to learn later in life.
    Try getting a older adult who has never used a computer to learn it.
    There are many who just can't.

    In this group, we take for granted that people can use a keyboard, know
    when to press ENTER and when it is not needed, know how to use a mouse,
    and know when a mouse click can replace a ENTER/RETURN, and can even
    understand there are differences between different buttons on a mouse.
    And we take for granted that people understand why it is important to
    save a document and how disk drives (hidden magical devices inside a
    computer) work. It is wrong to assume everyone can easily learn this.

    We're not talking about programming or systems management here. Just
    basic usage and understanding what a "document/file" is on a computer.

    When I left the comforts of a plush hotel in Taipei and went cycling
    around Taiwan, I learned the hard way what being illiterate really means
    since I couldn't read any road signs, store front signs or anything. You
    can't understand until you've experienced it.

    Same thing for people who don't understand computers. They see plenty of
    people using them, but they have no clue on how to use one.

  11. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > Remember that if a couple of people in a village get jobs, the spending
    > they do in that village will greatly help the rest of the village.


    Provided said village has electricity at all
    (preferably generated by solar panels),
    otherwise the cool laptop would be just an
    expensive door stop.
    Apart from that, a 3rd world village would probably
    need clean water supplies much more than laptops.


  12. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on
    > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser.
    >
    > This was the goal of HTML from the start.


    most people know that, but few people care, it seems.

    > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very
    > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota
    > in no time.
    >
    > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make
    > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not
    > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it).
    >
    > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS.
    >
    > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS
    > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories.


    that's all nice and well, but let's come back to the original
    goal of supplying children with Mosaic browsers.
    After having solved the problem of electricity supply
    for their laptops they will demand the same cool stuff
    as all the other teenies in the world:
    visiting cool sites (requiring JavaScript, flash plugins, etc),
    listening to web radio and watching youtube videos.



  13. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Larry Kilgallen schrieb:

    > Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me.
    >
    > I am less impressed by not keeping up with cascading style sheets,
    > but I don't know enough about those to see any security implications.


    well, if your browser doesn't support these,
    you are simply locked out from am increasingly
    large part of modern communication.

    > But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free
    > software.


    "official" in this context means that once upon a time
    there was a dedicated group of individuals at NCSA
    who took care of developing Mosaic for a variety of platforms.
    Nowadays Mosaic is abandonware (with the latest release 2.7
    you can't even render NCSA's home page properly),
    apart from Mr Cooks appreciated efforts to keep it alive
    at least on VMS.


  14. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Michael Kraemer wrote:
    >> However, I'm curious how a single person can hope to keep
    >> up with the ever changing web standards, as compared to the number
    >> of people working on Mozilla, Firefox, Opera etc.

    >
    > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on
    > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser.


    That is an axiom and not a theorem.

    Arne

  15. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    >> In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei
    >> writes:
    >>> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    >>>> Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self-appointed
    >>>> gurus would read Cliff Stoll.
    >>>>
    >>> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ?

    >> Some sort of Linux.

    >
    > So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that Linux.


    I am sure that some will be created.

    We are over 50000 for Windows I believe.

    If this distro get out in millions, then it will obvious
    be a very interesting target as well.

    So I hope they have secured the standard config good.

    Arne

  16. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    Larry Kilgallen wrote:
    > Not keeping up with Java and Javascript seems a benefit to me.


    Java applet are becoming rare, but without JavaScript there will
    be a lot of nonusable pages.

    > But I do not know what "official" means in the context of free
    > software.


    Free does not preclude something being official.

    But I don't think official is that relevant. The important
    part is the support aspect.

    The OLPC project probably want something where it is
    possible to buy support.

    Arne

  17. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    JF Mezei wrote:
    > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    >
    >>skills), then they will have to be easy to learn---and can be learned
    >>later in life if necessary. Learning them earlier might even put them
    >>into inappropriate habits for what comes later on---how many supermarket
    >>clerks with a PC at the checkout today would have benefitted from a
    >>primary-school course involving Algol and punched cards?

    >
    >
    >
    > You are making the assumption that they are easy to learn later in life.
    > Try getting a older adult who has never used a computer to learn it.
    > There are many who just can't.
    >


    I don't believe that they can't! They are simply unwilling to make the
    attempt. If the alternative were to lose their jobs, most would at
    least attempt it and I suspect that most would succeed!

    Someone who is over, say seventy years old, has little incentive to
    learn if he doesn't already know how. He knows how to write a letter,
    prepare his income tax return, balance his checking account, etc,
    without the use of a computer. Where is the incentive? It's easier to
    do it by hand than to learn. Given an incentive. . . .




  18. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > JF Mezei schrieb:
    >
    > > A properly written page will display its contents in a readable form on
    > > ANY, I repeat : **ANY** browser.

    >
    > > This was the goal of HTML from the start.

    >
    > most people know that, but few people care, it seems.
    >
    > > Mosaic does a very good job of displaying HTML stuff. It is also very
    > > fast and doesn't leak memory like Mozilla which sinks a huge pgflquota
    > > in no time.

    >
    > > Mosaic lacks Javascript, style sheets (some sites use this to make
    > > layers visible/invible to simulate pull down menus) and iframes (not
    > > 100% sure about last one, Mr cook may have implented it).

    >
    > > Obviously, it lacks all plugs ins, but so does Mozilla on VMS.

    >
    > > But it is still the safest way to navigate the web. Even Mozilla on VMS
    > > sometimes attempts to delete files in system directories.

    >
    > that's all nice and well, but let's come back to the original
    > goal of supplying children with Mosaic browsers.
    > After having solved the problem of electricity supply


    IIRC, the laptops can be crank-charged and a charge last for 12 hours
    or more.

    > for their laptops they will demand the same cool stuff
    > as all the other teenies in the world:
    > visiting cool sites (requiring JavaScript, flash plugins, etc),
    > listening to web radio and watching youtube videos.


    Did you see the 60 minutes story on this?


    AEF

  19. RE: OT: One Laptop per Child

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Arne Vajhj [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    > Sent: December 10, 2007 8:38 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: OT: One Laptop per Child
    >
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    > > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de

    > (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes:
    > >> In article <13ce4$475b2683$cef8887a$5430@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei
    > >> writes:
    > >>> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote:
    > >>>> Whenever I hear about this nonsense, I wish all of these self-

    > appointed
    > >>>> gurus would read Cliff Stoll.
    > >>>>
    > >>> So what do those OLPC laptops run then ?
    > >> Some sort of Linux.

    > >
    > > So all the world needs is one virus that knows a hole in that

    > Linux.
    >
    > I am sure that some will be created.
    >
    > We are over 50000 for Windows I believe.
    >
    > If this distro get out in millions, then it will obvious
    > be a very interesting target as well.
    >
    > So I hope they have secured the standard config good.
    >
    > Arne


    Not sure if this would do any good.

    Like Windows, no matter how well you secure the base Linux OS, every
    month has 5-20+ additional security fixes released.

    At some point one has to wonder if they can afford Windows or Linux.

    Regards

    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.



  20. Re: OT: One Laptop per Child

    In article <73a23$475dc8f3$cef8887a$966@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei
    writes:

    > You are making the assumption that they are easy to learn later in life.


    Yes.

    > Try getting a older adult who has never used a computer to learn it.
    > There are many who just can't.


    But most can master what they need to.

    Again, will having learned current computer technology help 30 years
    from now, when this technology will probably be quite different?


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