Another one bites the dust ... - VMS

This is a discussion on Another one bites the dust ... - VMS ; (Copied from the CareerBuilder wanted ad for a contract position. I find the following comment in the ad particularly intriguing: "in a more reliable and modernized hosting environment".) Oracle Applications Architect Description Evaluate current legacy system and create a deliverables-based ...

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  1. Another one bites the dust ...

    (Copied from the CareerBuilder wanted ad for a contract position. I
    find the following comment in the ad particularly intriguing: "in a
    more reliable and modernized hosting environment".)

    Oracle Applications Architect

    Description
    Evaluate current legacy system and create a deliverables-based
    inventory of the business functionality, data assets, user interfaces,
    reports and business rules that must be migrated to a new system.

    It is anticipated that approximately 80% of the legacy system design
    that is currently hosted in a VAX/VMS 7.2, Oracle RDB, FMS, DCL,
    DECFORMS, and COBOL platform will be transferred to a new platform
    leveraging IBM AIX, Oracle Application Server, Oracle 10G database,
    JAVA, and Oracle Forms. The remaining functionality will need to be re-
    written to properly operate in the new platform.

    Produce a work plan that identifies resources and provides an estimate
    of the resource utilization that will be required to complete the
    migration of the legacy capability to the new system. Develop an
    application framework design for a new system that can accommodate all
    legacy system functionality that is targeted for migration in a more
    reliable and modernized hosting environment.

    New framework design should provide implementation details for all
    layers of the new application framework, such as, user interface
    design and standards, business logic, database design, security,
    hardware, software configuration and source code management.
    Assist with the technical configuration and implementation of the off
    the shelf Business Accounting Solution (BAS): A significant detailed
    data migration and implementation plan will need to be developed and
    executed. Looking for an application specialist to augment team to
    serve as a SME for Oracle AS and 10G database and would perform the
    Oracle Application Server configurations required to support the BAS
    implementation. Also expected to assist with the interfacing of
    existing financial systems and databases with the new BAS

  2. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    FrankS wrote:
    > It is anticipated that approximately 80% of the legacy system design
    > that is currently hosted in a VAX/VMS 7.2, Oracle RDB, FMS, DCL,
    > DECFORMS, and COBOL platform will be transferred to a new platform



    Folks like Stallard and Livermore will be happy to see this since it
    supports their arguments that VMS has no future and that HP need to
    publically start an "affinity" programme to move VMS customers to other
    *HP* products before those customers choose non-HP products which is
    what is happening now.

    We may see 8.4, but I doubt we'll see more releases after that, except
    for some hardware specific ones (-Hx)


    As long as the VMS specific HP employees continue to paint a rosy
    picture and deny any of the fears felt in the community, the community
    won't get together to mount a fight to save VMS. Without a fight, VMS
    may go much sooner than people thought. The longer the HP employees wait
    before the sound the alarm, the fewer VMS supporters there will be to
    mount a fight.

    Perhaps it is best to just let it go quietly without a fight, perhaps not.


    And to those HP employees who deny VMS is in peril, when the axe falls,
    you may not get much sympathies. You'll get a golden parachute but
    customers wont. You may get paid retraining, but customers won't and be
    left with unmarketable legacy skills.

  3. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    FrankS wrote:
    > (Copied from the CareerBuilder wanted ad for a contract position. I
    > find the following comment in the ad particularly intriguing: "in a
    > more reliable and modernized hosting environment".)
    >
    > Oracle Applications Architect
    >
    > Description
    > Evaluate current legacy system and create a deliverables-based
    > inventory of the business functionality, data assets, user interfaces,
    > reports and business rules that must be migrated to a new system.
    >
    > It is anticipated that approximately 80% of the legacy system design
    > that is currently hosted in a VAX/VMS 7.2, Oracle RDB, FMS, DCL,
    > DECFORMS, and COBOL platform will be transferred to a new platform
    > leveraging IBM AIX, Oracle Application Server, Oracle 10G database,
    > JAVA, and Oracle Forms. The remaining functionality will need to be re-
    > written to properly operate in the new platform.
    >
    > Produce a work plan that identifies resources and provides an estimate
    > of the resource utilization that will be required to complete the
    > migration of the legacy capability to the new system. Develop an
    > application framework design for a new system that can accommodate all
    > legacy system functionality that is targeted for migration in a more
    > reliable and modernized hosting environment.
    >
    > New framework design should provide implementation details for all
    > layers of the new application framework, such as, user interface
    > design and standards, business logic, database design, security,
    > hardware, software configuration and source code management.
    > Assist with the technical configuration and implementation of the off
    > the shelf Business Accounting Solution (BAS): A significant detailed
    > data migration and implementation plan will need to be developed and
    > executed. Looking for an application specialist to augment team to
    > serve as a SME for Oracle AS and 10G database and would perform the
    > Oracle Application Server configurations required to support the BAS
    > implementation. Also expected to assist with the interfacing of
    > existing financial systems and databases with the new BAS


    That sounds like a project that could eat more than a few million
    dollars! Might even make it to a few tens of millions! I'm glad I
    don't work there!!!!!!!


  4. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    "FrankS" wrote in message
    news:7b5e9935-0dc9-4aee-99c9-b41edec972bd@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
    > (Copied from the CareerBuilder wanted ad for a contract position. I
    > find the following comment in the ad particularly intriguing: "in a
    > more reliable and modernized hosting environment".)


    They're still running a VAX, I'm sure they're having plenty of *hardware*
    reliability problems. I think they should move to Itanium while they
    rewrite their applications. That will make it much easier when the
    application rewrite project fails.

    >
    > Oracle Applications Architect
    >
    > Description
    > Evaluate current legacy system and create a deliverables-based
    > inventory of the business functionality, data assets, user interfaces,
    > reports and business rules that must be migrated to a new system.
    >
    > It is anticipated that approximately 80% of the legacy system design
    > that is currently hosted in a VAX/VMS 7.2, Oracle RDB, FMS, DCL,
    > DECFORMS, and COBOL platform will be transferred to a new platform
    > leveraging IBM AIX, Oracle Application Server, Oracle 10G database,
    > JAVA, and Oracle Forms. The remaining functionality will need to be re-
    > written to properly operate in the new platform.
    >
    > Produce a work plan that identifies resources and provides an estimate
    > of the resource utilization that will be required to complete the
    > migration of the legacy capability to the new system. Develop an
    > application framework design for a new system that can accommodate all
    > legacy system functionality that is targeted for migration in a more
    > reliable and modernized hosting environment.
    >
    > New framework design should provide implementation details for all
    > layers of the new application framework, such as, user interface
    > design and standards, business logic, database design, security,
    > hardware, software configuration and source code management.
    > Assist with the technical configuration and implementation of the off
    > the shelf Business Accounting Solution (BAS): A significant detailed
    > data migration and implementation plan will need to be developed and
    > executed. Looking for an application specialist to augment team to
    > serve as a SME for Oracle AS and 10G database and would perform the
    > Oracle Application Server configurations required to support the BAS
    > implementation. Also expected to assist with the interfacing of
    > existing financial systems and databases with the new BAS



  5. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 24, 5:52 pm, "John Vottero" wrote:
    > They're still running a VAX, I'm sure they're having plenty of *hardware*
    > reliability problems. I think they should move to Itanium while they
    > rewrite their applications. That will make it much easier when the
    > application rewrite project fails.


    I have clients still running on VAXes, without any hardware issues.
    Old, yes, and harder to find replacements, but still running day-in
    and day-out. In one case a very mission critical environment is
    hosted on a cluster of four VAX 7640s.

    Obvious to us is that whichever part of Florida government has decided
    to leave OpenVMS hasn't been made aware of the option of moving to
    Alpha or Integrity. They can keep the Oracle RDB database and use
    both Java and Oracle Forms to reach their data. Probably much, much
    cheaper than going to the AIX solution.

    But a) it's government, and b) if they have an HP rep that person
    hasn't done a very good job of demonstrating how easy it would be to
    stay with OpenVMS. I'm tempted to respond to the recruiter if only to
    try and see if the migration decision is final or whether they'd like
    to save $10 million.

  6. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > FrankS wrote:
    >> New framework design should provide implementation details for all
    >> layers of the new application framework, such as, user interface
    >> design and standards, business logic, database design, security,
    >> hardware, software configuration and source code management.
    >> Assist with the technical configuration and implementation of the off
    >> the shelf Business Accounting Solution (BAS): A significant detailed
    >> data migration and implementation plan will need to be developed and
    >> executed. Looking for an application specialist to augment team to
    >> serve as a SME for Oracle AS and 10G database and would perform the
    >> Oracle Application Server configurations required to support the BAS
    >> implementation. Also expected to assist with the interfacing of
    >> existing financial systems and databases with the new BAS

    >
    > That sounds like a project that could eat more than a few million
    > dollars! Might even make it to a few tens of millions! I'm glad I
    > don't work there!!!!!!!


    Why ? If a fair share of the double digit millions went into your
    pocket ....

    Arne

  7. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    FrankS wrote:
    > Obvious to us is that whichever part of Florida government has decided
    > to leave OpenVMS hasn't been made aware of the option of moving to
    > Alpha or Integrity.


    Horse radish.

    People who migrate from VMS to some other OS do so because they have
    been convinced that there is no future with VMS and they must spend the
    big bucks to port to an inferior system.

    There can be many factors that have convinced people that VMS is a
    legacy system to migrate FROM instead of a modern system to move TO.

    You can blame it in HP/Compaq/Digital, you can blame it on Gartner, you
    can blame it on the Inquirer, or even blame it on JF. And you can also
    blame it on windows or Linux weenies who convince their management that
    their platform can do it for a lot less than that big old VAX monster.
    And since the staff agenda is to get rid of VMS, they aren't about to
    push for a VMS solution on Alpha or that IA64 contraption.

    But the end result is the same: people see VMS as a legacy platform with
    no future.

    And since HP corporate isn't fighting this bad image even though it
    would be very easy for them to do so, it keeps the negative image going
    and growing.

  8. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    >
    >> FrankS wrote:
    >>
    >>> New framework design should provide implementation details for all
    >>> layers of the new application framework, such as, user interface
    >>> design and standards, business logic, database design, security,
    >>> hardware, software configuration and source code management.
    >>> Assist with the technical configuration and implementation of the off
    >>> the shelf Business Accounting Solution (BAS): A significant detailed
    >>> data migration and implementation plan will need to be developed and
    >>> executed. Looking for an application specialist to augment team to
    >>> serve as a SME for Oracle AS and 10G database and would perform the
    >>> Oracle Application Server configurations required to support the BAS
    >>> implementation. Also expected to assist with the interfacing of
    >>> existing financial systems and databases with the new BAS

    >>
    >>
    >> That sounds like a project that could eat more than a few million
    >> dollars! Might even make it to a few tens of millions! I'm glad I
    >> don't work there!!!!!!!

    >
    >
    > Why ? If a fair share of the double digit millions went into your
    > pocket ....
    >
    > Arne


    It's the kind of project that will be chronically behind schedule and
    over budget! Do you really think that the Chairman, the CEO, the
    President, etc, will step up and take the blame?

    It's an expensive way to make millions!! Even if you can collect!



  9. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > Arne Vajh°j wrote:
    >> Why ? If a fair share of the double digit millions went into your
    >> pocket ....

    >
    > It's the kind of project that will be chronically behind schedule and
    > over budget! Do you really think that the Chairman, the CEO, the
    > President, etc, will step up and take the blame?


    No - and so what ?

    Arne


  10. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 24, 8:51 am, JF Mezei wrote:
    > FrankS wrote:
    > > It is anticipated that approximately 80% of the legacy system design
    > > that is currently hosted in a VAX/VMS 7.2, Oracle RDB, FMS, DCL,
    > > DECFORMS, and COBOL platform will be transferred to a new platform

    >
    > Folks like Stallard and Livermore will be happy to see this since it
    > supports their arguments that VMS has no future and that HP need to
    > publically start an "affinity" programme to move VMS customers to other
    > *HP* products before those customers choose non-HP products which is
    > what is happening now.
    >
    > We may see 8.4, but I doubt we'll see more releases after that, except
    > for some hardware specific ones (-Hx)
    >
    > As long as the VMS specific HP employees continue to paint a rosy
    > picture and deny any of the fears felt in the community, the community
    > won't get together to mount a fight to save VMS. Without a fight, VMS
    > may go much sooner than people thought. The longer the HP employees wait
    > before the sound the alarm, the fewer VMS supporters there will be to
    > mount a fight.
    >
    > Perhaps it is best to just let it go quietly without a fight, perhaps not.
    >
    > And to those HP employees who deny VMS is in peril, when the axe falls,
    > you may not get much sympathies. You'll get a golden parachute but
    > customers wont. You may get paid retraining, but customers won't and be
    > left with unmarketable legacy skills.


    let the dum ones pay thru their nose for more problems ...

    OpenVMS will be here for at least another 20 years ...

    enjoy it till you retire ...

    do not worry about the other idiots ...

  11. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article <13kkstu6e0afja8@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >
    >I would hesitate to suggest the reason. The traffic on ITRC is
    >significantly greater and more apropos (IMO due to a vigorous and
    >non-accountable thought police rather than any exhibition of
    >self-discipline - but I digress). I'm (currently) a read-only
    >participant for reasons previously aired. While that's indicative of
    >levels of technical activity far greater than apparent in this forum,
    >again I'll express my regret that the small VMS community is allowing
    >itself to be fragmented across multiple, and increasingly proprietory or
    >at least private fora, something IMO it can ill afford to do.


    At least, I can get to comp.os.vms. ITRC? Access is dicey. I just tried
    now and when I put in my login credentials, I get:

    Safari could not open the page http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/ciss/login.do?
    TargetPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.itrc.hp.com%2Fservice %2Findex.do%3Fadmit%3D-
    682735245%2B1196082882269%2B28353475 because the server stopped responding.

    ....and when I do get in, I seldom find or get an answer to my question.
    Just a lot of prodding about points. I can't take as serious any forum
    that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.

    Of course, there's always the stupid pasword that is "forced" upon me
    too. I should be able to select a password of my OWN choosing.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  12. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 24, 11:44 pm, JF Mezei wrote:
    > FrankS wrote:
    > > Obvious to us is that whichever part of Florida government has decided
    > > to leave OpenVMS hasn't been made aware of the option of moving to
    > > Alpha or Integrity.

    >
    > Horse radish.
    >
    > People who migrate from VMS to some other OS do so because they have
    > been convinced that there is no future with VMS and they must spend the
    > big bucks to port to an inferior system.
    >
    > There can be many factors that have convinced people that VMS is a
    > legacy system to migrate FROM instead of a modern system to move TO.
    >
    > You can blame it in HP/Compaq/Digital, you can blame it on Gartner, you
    > can blame it on the Inquirer, or even blame it on JF. And you can also
    > blame it on windows or Linux weenies who convince their management that
    > their platform can do it for a lot less than that big old VAX monster.
    > And since the staff agenda is to get rid of VMS, they aren't about to
    > push for a VMS solution on Alpha or that IA64 contraption.
    >
    > But the end result is the same: people see VMS as a legacy platform with
    > no future.
    >
    > And since HP corporate isn't fighting this bad image even though it
    > would be very easy for them to do so, it keeps the negative image going
    > and growing.


    convinced by who? IBM sales people? They are the only
    ones trying to convince people of that ...

  13. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <13kkstu6e0af...@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes:
    > >{...snip...}

    >
    > >I would hesitate to suggest the reason. The traffic on ITRC is
    > >significantly greater and more apropos


    I largely agree with Mark there

    > (IMO due to a vigorous and non-accountable thought police rather than any exhibition of self-discipline - but I digress).


    Mark, I've heard about some ansty unexaplained deletes, but it does
    not happen too much and this being HP sponsored I can sort of
    understand they have some level of decorum to keep up. I was witness
    to some of the 'moderator' discussions a fwe years back whicl still
    working at HP and it seemed reasonable (looking through sceptical, but
    still HP colored glasses at the time).

    Some deletes I am aware of in OpenVMS space where for posts by Richard
    Maher. Frequent readers of c.o.v surely concur that he can get nasty
    at times (putting it mildly). And other poster here and there 'living
    dangerously' is Steven Schweda. I'm not sure he has had posts deleted.
    I'm sure he can tell us. Steven clearly has a low tolerance for
    blatant stupidity / ignorance. And I'm with him on that, but there's
    ways to deal with that (like ignoring the idiots).

    > I'll express my regret that the small VMS community is allowing
    > >itself to be fragmented across multiple, and increasingly proprietory or
    > >at least private fora, something IMO it can ill afford to do.


    I share that concern with Mark.
    Me, I like EISNER, for the closest feeling of OpenVMS friends.

    > At least, I can get to comp.os.vms. ITRC? Access is dicey


    Yeah it has bouts of poor access. It's mostly run by amateurs in spare
    time,
    Just over a week agos it was down for most the weekend, but in general
    it is there.
    How else do they rake up millions of posts, tens-of-thousands of
    users.

    IMHO it is harder to learn how to use newsgroups then it is to get
    into the HP Forums.

    >. I just tried now and when I put in my login credentials, I get:
    >
    > Safari could not open the pagehttp://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/ciss/login.do?
    > TargetPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.itrc.hp.com%2Fservice %2Findex.do%3Fadmit%3D-
    > 682735245%2B1196082882269%2B28353475 because the server stopped responding.


    Hmm, I've used the ITRC forum for extensively (google: +hein +itrc
    [lucky] :-) but never went to that place best I know. Certainly not
    for reading. For posting/repying I get to log in every now and then,
    but the login has been more relyable than the posts itself. Also,
    fwiw, if a post seems to fail/timeout, it mostly actually happened,
    that's a problem with the follow up, not with the post. Just cancel,
    go back, copy reply text 'just in case', and go back to the topic to
    see whether it is there (instantly, not with the newsgroup delay).

    Anyway, for OpenVMS, please try:

    http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/f...o?familyId=288

    > ...and when I do get in, I seldom find or get an answer to my question.
    > Just a lot of prodding about points.


    > I can't take as serious any forum
    > that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.


    Yeah the points are silly, and the hat are silly.
    But they work for many. Just ignore them.
    Several other forums do something similar.
    For example: http://beeradvocate.com/beer_karma

    My biggest gripe it the dismall search facility it comes with.
    No reasonable way to search by topic/author/subject/date.
    Of well, I just use google. For example: +schenkenberger
    +site:itrc.hp.com

    >
    > Of course, there's always the stupid pasword that is "forced" upon me
    > too. I should be able to select a password of my OWN choosing.


    And the rest of us is able to do so.

    But there is a code exception path for folks who are grumpy and have
    a lastname longer than 12 characters. Nothing personal. Just an
    OpenVMS thing I'm told :-)

    Just make the effort, visit the profile page, and change your friggin
    password already like the rest of us!

    Cheers,
    Hein.

  14. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > I can't take as serious any forum
    > that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.


    Argh, forgot a critical paragraph. Sorry for the repeat post.

    A forum would seem worth visiting when you can get answers, for free,
    from folks like Craig Berry, John Gillings, Volker Halle, Hoff, Ian
    Miller, John Reagan, Steven Schweda,... (random pick, alphabetically
    presented)

    Cheers,
    Hein.


  15. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article <5c814bbc-eb99-45a6-a549-c0fc61767d06@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >> Of course, there's always the stupid pasword that is "forced" upon me
    >> too. I should be able to select a password of my OWN choosing.

    >
    >And the rest of us is able to do so.
    >
    >But there is a code exception path for folks who are grumpy and have
    >a lastname longer than 12 characters. Nothing personal. Just an
    >OpenVMS thing I'm told :-)
    >
    >Just make the effort, visit the profile page, and change your friggin
    >password already like the rest of us!


    Hein,

    I'm trying... stuck waiting for http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/index.do
    to load... and lo and behold...

    Safari could not open the page "http://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/index.do"
    because the server stopped responding.

    However, ISTR that the site forced an 8 character maximum password and
    it had to maintain 1 digit min.

    *IF* I can get in, I'll look again at trying to change the password to
    something I can remember so that I don't have to ask to have the pass-
    word sent to me each time I want to access ITRC.


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  16. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes:
    >
    >
    >On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >> I can't take as serious any forum
    >> that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.

    >
    >Argh, forgot a critical paragraph. Sorry for the repeat post.
    >
    >A forum would seem worth visiting when you can get answers, for free,
    >from folks like Craig Berry, John Gillings, Volker Halle, Hoff, Ian
    >Miller, John Reagan, Steven Schweda,... (random pick, alphabetically
    >presented)


    I contribute to if I didn't get so frustrated wasting my time trying
    to get in.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  17. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:
    > On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >
    >>I can't take as serious any forum
    >>that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.

    >
    >
    > Argh, forgot a critical paragraph. Sorry for the repeat post.
    >
    > A forum would seem worth visiting when you can get answers, for free,
    > from folks like Craig Berry, John Gillings, Volker Halle, Hoff, Ian
    > Miller, John Reagan, Steven Schweda,... (random pick, alphabetically
    > presented)


    This has almost convinced me. As I commented, the technical content is
    excellent and is indicative of active professionals trying to get on
    with it. The activity in c.o.v. should not be used as a gauge of the
    health of the VMS community (one of my original points).

    I agree that aspects of ITRC seem puerile (sure, those can be ignored)
    but what cannot be so easily dismissed is *that* interface. How one is
    expected to effectively compose and present technical information
    through a letter-box slot that insists on squashing everything against
    the left margin defies imagination.

    ITRC may well be a skunk-works project run by a few in their spare time
    but it's hardly a shining example of HP's on-line competence in the
    early twenty-first century. Considering it's one of their main vehicles
    for user support I would have imagined it might have a higher priority.

    My other major issue is *the* one of topic removal. I expend enough
    effort composing my contributions to feel that the risk of having wasted
    that effort through an unaccountable [X] and [delete] without the
    courtesy of an explanation very unsettling. I don't disagree that there
    might be an argument for abusive or inflammatory content infringing
    conditions of use but my experience hardly fell into that category. It
    rankles. [Just get over it Mark]

    > Cheers,
    > Hein.


    Me too.

    --
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
    [Carl Sagan; Cosmos]

    (Hmmm, it's been while since I read the ITRC terms and conditions - I
    wonder whether my signatures would incur the wrath of conservative
    moderators.)

  18. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article <13knj218aplfrd9@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >This has almost convinced me. As I commented, the technical content is
    >excellent and is indicative of active professionals trying to get on
    >with it. The activity in c.o.v. should not be used as a gauge of the
    >health of the VMS community (one of my original points).
    >
    >I agree that aspects of ITRC seem puerile (sure, those can be ignored)
    >but what cannot be so easily dismissed is *that* interface. How one is
    >expected to effectively compose and present technical information
    >through a letter-box slot that insists on squashing everything against
    >the left margin defies imagination.


    I'd like to see button to "attach" content. That way I could edit my
    query or response in a familair editor and upload it. My guess would
    be that HP has a naughty word filter processing the input before it's
    posted and allowing uploads like I have just described may be harder
    to police.


    >ITRC may well be a skunk-works project run by a few in their spare time
    >but it's hardly a shining example of HP's on-line competence in the
    >early twenty-first century. Considering it's one of their main vehicles
    >for user support I would have imagined it might have a higher priority.
    >
    >My other major issue is *the* one of topic removal. I expend enough
    >effort composing my contributions to feel that the risk of having wasted
    >that effort through an unaccountable [X] and [delete] without the
    >courtesy of an explanation very unsettling. I don't disagree that there
    >might be an argument for abusive or inflammatory content infringing
    >conditions of use but my experience hardly fell into that category. It
    >rankles. [Just get over it Mark]


    My gripe is its inconsistence of access.

    I just logged in and quickly I might add! No hitch this morning. I
    proceeded to the OpenVMS forum. I looked at the first page and then
    I clicked on "2" at the bottom of the page to read the next page.
    Behold, after several moments, I received the usual:

    Safari could not open the page http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service
    /forums/familyhome.do?familyId=288&filterType=1&pageNum=2 because
    the server stopped responding.

    I can't be expected to use it when I can't even access it.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  19. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > I'd like to see button to "attach" content. That way I could edit my
    > query or response in a familair editor and upload it. My guess would
    > be that HP has a naughty word filter processing the input before it's
    > posted and allowing uploads like I have just described may be harder
    > to police.



    Or simply have HP run an NNTP server that serves only its own private
    newsgroups like other companies have done. They can then have moderated
    newsgroups and move people off those horrendously hideous web based
    forums and let them use proper software to write messages.

    They could set those servers to retain content indefinitely and/or let
    Google index them.

  20. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    On Nov 27, 8:23 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > In article <13knj218aplf...@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes:
    > >{...snip...}
    > >This has almost convinced me.

    :
    > > How one is
    > >expected to effectively compose and present technical information
    > >through a letter-box slot that insists on squashing everything against
    > >the left margin defies imagination.


    Agreed Mark. And all to common problem. Specifically seen on
    'feedback' and 'error description fields' : an 1024x768 space with a
    800x400 picture of a smiling lady and 80x40 pixels to enter the
    problem. What's important here ?! (the looks. Not!)

    To stop the whitespace compression you can click:
    "[] Retain format(spacing). URLs will not be clickable."
    But I have forgotten that more often than not.

    Brian> I'd like to see button to "attach" content.

    Well, there is a [browse] button.

    That's great for sya a $SHOW SYSTEM output or a zip file or such.
    Of course this invites the dimwits out there to attach a .ZIP with
    a .DOC work document which has a .JPG picture of a screenshot which
    just contains a .TXT file :-(.

    The window I am currently typing this into is not much bigger then the
    silly ITRC text box. I'm using google groups rigth now. If I know I'm
    going to type a substantial amount then I go into an editor and cut
    and paste the final text into the tiny window. No big deal.

    > That way I could edit my query or response in a familair editor and upload it.


    Just cut (from your favourite editor & paste (into that box)?


    > My guess would be that HP has a naughty word filter processing the input before it's
    > posted and allowing uploads like I have just described may be harder to police.


    Nah. No smarts.

    > >ITRC may well be a skunk-works project run by a few in their spare time
    > >but it's hardly a shining example of HP's on-line competence in the
    > >early twenty-first century.


    Correct.

    > Considering it's one of their main vehicles
    > >for user support I would have imagined it might have a higher priority.


    But only user-to-user support. Graciously offered up.
    Confusinng (IMHO) the formal support website is also called itrc.
    If anything the forums eat into the formal support path, but the
    goodwill is worth it.
    It is a community/tool.
    The HPUX forum actually atracts lots of AIX and Solaris questions!

    > >My other major issue is *the* one of topic removal. I expend enough
    > >effort composing my contributions to feel that the risk of having wasted
    > >that effort through an unaccountable [X] and [delete] without the
    > >courtesy of an explanation very unsettling.


    I think the removals are extremely rare, but you may feel different.
    You have experienced one, I did not.
    I did once spend considerable time creating a reply which we deleted
    with the topic. That felt pretty darn lousy.
    The 'rules' are applied for HP posts as well. I know a post or two by
    Sue Skonetski were removed as too commercial.

    > My gripe is its inconsistence of access.


    Today was an other not-so-good day.
    I do find that a bad reflection on HP.
    They can not even run a forum service!

    > I can't be expected to use it when I can't even access it.


    Fair enough. It just a little odd how it does not seem to bother
    thousands of other users that much.

    > http://tmesis.com/drat.html


    Marvineous!

    http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/icons/The_Knack.wav

    Hein.

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