Another one bites the dust ... - VMS

This is a discussion on Another one bites the dust ... - VMS ; In article , JF Mezei writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> I'd like to see button to "attach" content. That way I could edit my >> query or response in a familair editor and upload it. My guess would ...

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Thread: Another one bites the dust ...

  1. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article , JF Mezei writes:
    >
    >
    >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    >> I'd like to see button to "attach" content. That way I could edit my
    >> query or response in a familair editor and upload it. My guess would
    >> be that HP has a naughty word filter processing the input before it's
    >> posted and allowing uploads like I have just described may be harder
    >> to police.

    >
    >
    >Or simply have HP run an NNTP server that serves only its own private
    >newsgroups like other companies have done. They can then have moderated
    >newsgroups and move people off those horrendously hideous web based
    >forums and let them use proper software to write messages.


    I like this even better. Then I can use a familiar news reader to access
    it.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  2. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article , Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >> http://tmesis.com/drat.html

    >
    >Marvineous!
    >
    >http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/icons/The_Knack.wav


    Sadly, having "The Knack" has become an ugly, hideous scar on the lives
    of those of us with "The Knack." Those with "The Knack" are hated and
    loathed by those wishing that they had "The Knack." Those without will
    stop at nothing to ruin the lives of those with "The Knack." It's their
    way of staving off the reprehensible stigma of their own inept, "Knack-
    less" lives. They're so sadly pathetic and their "Knacklessness" is so
    woefully obvious that they resort to using professionals to perform vile
    dastardly deeds as a way of making themselves feel, somehow, superior to
    those with "The Knack."

    Stay tuned to comp.os.vms to see how this latest vicious episode plays out.


    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  3. Re: Where is the love? (was: Re: Another one bites the dust ...)

    In article , "Richard Maher" writes:
    >Linux is a distracting pain in the arse don't you find?


    I personally see top posting as much more annoying...

    --
    Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
    Network and OpenVMS system specialist
    E-mail peter@langstoeger.at
    A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist

  4. Where is the love? (was: Re: Another one bites the dust ...)

    Hi Hein,

    > Some deletes I am aware of in OpenVMS space where for posts by Richard
    > Maher. Frequent readers of c.o.v surely concur that he can get nasty
    > at times (putting it mildly).


    Hein, you cut me to the quick :-(

    Anyway, I had let a couple of posts go in recent weeks and turned the other
    cheek, but you have irked me son :-)

    I'm riled enough to reply at length if I can just find the time. Linux is a
    distracting pain in the arse don't you find?

    Cheers Richard Maher

    "Hein RMS van den Heuvel" wrote in message
    news:5c814bbc-eb99-45a6-a549-c0fc61767d06@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
    > On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > > In article <13kkstu6e0af...@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel

    writes:
    > > >{...snip...}

    > >
    > > >I would hesitate to suggest the reason. The traffic on ITRC is
    > > >significantly greater and more apropos

    >
    > I largely agree with Mark there
    >
    > > (IMO due to a vigorous and non-accountable thought police rather than

    any exhibition of self-discipline - but I digress).
    >
    > Mark, I've heard about some ansty unexaplained deletes, but it does
    > not happen too much and this being HP sponsored I can sort of
    > understand they have some level of decorum to keep up. I was witness
    > to some of the 'moderator' discussions a fwe years back whicl still
    > working at HP and it seemed reasonable (looking through sceptical, but
    > still HP colored glasses at the time).
    >
    > Some deletes I am aware of in OpenVMS space where for posts by Richard
    > Maher. Frequent readers of c.o.v surely concur that he can get nasty
    > at times (putting it mildly). And other poster here and there 'living
    > dangerously' is Steven Schweda. I'm not sure he has had posts deleted.
    > I'm sure he can tell us. Steven clearly has a low tolerance for
    > blatant stupidity / ignorance. And I'm with him on that, but there's
    > ways to deal with that (like ignoring the idiots).
    >
    > > I'll express my regret that the small VMS community is allowing
    > > >itself to be fragmented across multiple, and increasingly proprietory

    or
    > > >at least private fora, something IMO it can ill afford to do.

    >
    > I share that concern with Mark.
    > Me, I like EISNER, for the closest feeling of OpenVMS friends.
    >
    > > At least, I can get to comp.os.vms. ITRC? Access is dicey

    >
    > Yeah it has bouts of poor access. It's mostly run by amateurs in spare
    > time,
    > Just over a week agos it was down for most the weekend, but in general
    > it is there.
    > How else do they rake up millions of posts, tens-of-thousands of
    > users.
    >
    > IMHO it is harder to learn how to use newsgroups then it is to get
    > into the HP Forums.
    >
    > >. I just tried now and when I put in my login credentials, I get:
    > >
    > > Safari could not open the

    pagehttp://www1.itrc.hp.com/service/ciss/login.do?
    > >

    TargetPage=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.itrc.hp.com%2Fservice %2Findex.do%3Fadmit%3D-
    > > 682735245%2B1196082882269%2B28353475 because the server stopped

    responding.
    >
    > Hmm, I've used the ITRC forum for extensively (google: +hein +itrc
    > [lucky] :-) but never went to that place best I know. Certainly not
    > for reading. For posting/repying I get to log in every now and then,
    > but the login has been more relyable than the posts itself. Also,
    > fwiw, if a post seems to fail/timeout, it mostly actually happened,
    > that's a problem with the follow up, not with the post. Just cancel,
    > go back, copy reply text 'just in case', and go back to the topic to
    > see whether it is there (instantly, not with the newsgroup delay).
    >
    > Anyway, for OpenVMS, please try:
    >
    > http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/f...o?familyId=288
    >
    > > ...and when I do get in, I seldom find or get an answer to my question.
    > > Just a lot of prodding about points.

    >
    > > I can't take as serious any forum
    > > that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.

    >
    > Yeah the points are silly, and the hat are silly.
    > But they work for many. Just ignore them.
    > Several other forums do something similar.
    > For example: http://beeradvocate.com/beer_karma
    >
    > My biggest gripe it the dismall search facility it comes with.
    > No reasonable way to search by topic/author/subject/date.
    > Of well, I just use google. For example: +schenkenberger
    > +site:itrc.hp.com
    >
    > >
    > > Of course, there's always the stupid pasword that is "forced" upon me
    > > too. I should be able to select a password of my OWN choosing.

    >
    > And the rest of us is able to do so.
    >
    > But there is a code exception path for folks who are grumpy and have
    > a lastname longer than 12 characters. Nothing personal. Just an
    > OpenVMS thing I'm told :-)
    >
    > Just make the effort, visit the profile page, and change your friggin
    > password already like the rest of us!
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Hein.






  5. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article
    ,
    Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote:

    > On Nov 26, 8:25 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
    > > I can't take as serious any forum
    > > that awards silly "hats" for answering questions.

    >
    > Argh, forgot a critical paragraph. Sorry for the repeat post.
    >
    > A forum would seem worth visiting when you can get answers, for free,
    > from folks like Craig Berry, John Gillings, Volker Halle, Hoff, Ian
    > Miller, John Reagan, Steven Schweda,... (random pick, alphabetically
    > presented)


    Always glad to get preference merely by being near the beginning of the
    alphabet. Hein neglected to mention he's often the first and even
    more often the most helpful respondent. As far as ITRC goes, it
    doesn't sit well with me that the likes of Mark Daniel gets censored,
    and the interface sucks, but those things don't dampen the level of
    technical discussion nearly as much as the nonsense that goes on here.

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  6. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Craig A. Berry wrote:
    > and the interface sucks, but those things don't dampen the level of
    > technical discussion nearly as much as the nonsense that goes on here.


    comp.os.vms will outlive whatever proprietary web based forum HP is
    current running, especially some unsanctioned one runned by volunteers
    on HP infrastructure.

    comp.os.vms has the deja news (google) archives and a wealth of information.

    Remember that comp.os.vms will continue to support the remaining
    installed base long after HP has abandonned the product. It has outlived
    digital, it has outlived compaq.

    Instead of inviting people to move from cov to itrc, you should be
    getting people to migrate from that itrc kludge back to cov. The more
    people in cov, the less the signal to noise ratio.


    The more divided into separate groups the now small VMS community is,
    the less voice it has to send messages to VMS's current owner.

  7. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > Remember that comp.os.vms will continue to support the remaining
    > installed base long after HP has abandonned the product. It has outlived
    > digital, it has outlived compaq.


    If HP abandons the product, they most probably will also
    terminate the hobbyist program. So there would only be
    a grace period of about a year.

    > Instead of inviting people to move from cov to itrc, you should be
    > getting people to migrate from that itrc kludge back to cov. The more
    > people in cov, the less the signal to noise ratio.


    One should hope for the opposite, I think.



  8. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article <950df$474f9459$cef8887a$24790@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes:
    >{...snip...}
    >The more divided into separate groups the now small VMS community is,
    >the less voice it has to send messages to VMS's current owner.


    While I would tend to agree that splintering the VMS technical discussion
    groups is/was not a good idea, which forum should be retained?

    I personally find the ITRC forum cumbersome and prefer usenet, if only be-
    cause there are other forums beyond comp.os.vms that I frequent. Knowing
    one interface (my news reader software) is preferred, IMHO, over having to
    learn and remember the nuances of myriad interfaces -- and usernames and
    passwords, especially when username and password selection schemes limit
    me from selecting a username and password I can remember. I'll let Larry
    comment on the virtues of having to write down usernames and passwords to
    remember them.


    On the otherhand, I'm told by people that usenet it dead. I don't believe
    it. It's more likely that the neophytes on the internet today are simply
    ignorant of its existence.


    One other thing is that if I feel like using George Carlin's "seven deadly
    words" or making a
    critical statement that HP finds offensive, I don't want my statement cen-
    sored. Comp.os.vms via usenet provides a truly open forum for discussion.
    SCOTUS (the Supreme Court of the US) and US state courts as well have up
    held "the principle that pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to
    constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously
    expressed they may be." I firmly believe this.

    "Ridicule is a distinct kind of expression; its substance cannot be
    repackaged in a less offensive rhetorical form without expressing
    something very different from what was intended. That is why cartoons
    and other forms of ridicule have for centuries, even when illegal, been
    among the most important weapons of both noble and wicked political
    movements.

    So in a democracy no one, however powerful or impotent, can have a
    right not to be insulted or offended."


    Genuine ridicule -- can you say "Flame" -- and abject opinion -- software
    XYZ is the worst piece of **** I have ever encountered -- is fair opinion,
    honest and should not be censored. Long live comp.os.vms.

    --
    VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM

    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"

    http://tmesis.com/drat.html

  9. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    In article , "Tom Linden"
    writes:
    > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:11:54 -0800, Michael Kraemer
    > wrote:
    >
    > > If HP abandons the product, they most probably will also
    > > terminate the hobbyist program. So there would only be
    > > a grace period of about a year.
    > >

    >
    > I imagine there are hobbysists capable of generating their own paks.
    >


    oh oh, just wait for the legalistic crowd shouting "illegal !".
    Not that anybody would give a damn about abandonware,
    which VMS would be in this case (well, some may say it is already :-),
    joining Ultrix and Tru64.
    But unlike with these two, it would be more noticeable if somebody
    outs himself as a VMS-hobbyist more than a year after termination of the
    program.

  10. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Tom Linden wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:11:54 -0800, Michael Kraemer
    > wrote:
    >
    >> If HP abandons the product, they most probably will also
    >> terminate the hobbyist program. So there would only be
    >> a grace period of about a year.
    >>

    >
    > I imagine there are hobbysists capable of generating their own paks.
    >


    If you know the secret, you don't NEED a PAK. Does anyone remember the
    occasion, back in the 1990s when someone was "asked to leave" a DECUS
    Symposium because of the "Screw the LMF" T-shirt he was wearing? It
    reportedly had the code to defeat the LMF printed front and back. I
    didn't see it myself but I know how to do it.


  11. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    Michael Kraemer wrote:
    > But unlike with these two, it would be more noticeable if somebody
    > outs himself as a VMS-hobbyist more than a year after termination of the
    > program.


    Consider that when HP officially announces the end of development of
    VMS, it will still garantee full support for 5 years. During this time,
    HP will still have a "VMS business" going, support revenus etc etc.

    At the point where HP stops wanting sales of VMS software/licences, it
    won't mind if people cheat with the hobbyist programme since it won't
    cannabalise any revenus. And the hobbyist programme is runned by
    volunteers (Thanks Mr Cathey/Cathay), HP simply needs to gove him
    permission to continue his endeavours, but without getting any support
    from HP.

    I suspect that hobbyist might have to lobby HP during that 5 year period
    to convince them to let the programme continue beyond HP.

    HP might even allow him to offer licences that don't expire.


  12. Re: Another one bites the dust ...

    JF Mezei schrieb:

    > At the point where HP stops wanting sales of VMS software/licences, it
    > won't mind if people cheat with the hobbyist programme since it won't
    > cannabalise any revenus.


    Tru64 for example is a dead end and
    it won't cannibalize revenues if Tru64 licenses were given away.
    Nevertheless Tru64 "hobbyist" has been dropped.
    It won't cannibalize revenues if people run old ( << 11.x )
    versions of HP-UX or associated app CDs, but it seems
    to be next to impossible to get the associated codewords.
    So I won't hold my breath as far as VMS goes.

    > I suspect that hobbyist might have to lobby HP during that 5 year period
    > to convince them to let the programme continue beyond HP.


    Given HP's track record on listening to enthusiast's wishes,
    you think such an effort will be worthwhile ?

    > HP might even allow him to offer licences that don't expire.
    >



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