Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young - VMS

This is a discussion on Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young - VMS ; AEF wrote: > On Oct 27, 11:06 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca] >>> Sent: October 27, 2007 6:13 AM >>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young >> ...

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Thread: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

  1. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    AEF wrote:
    > On Oct 27, 11:06 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote:
    >>> -----Original Message-----
    >>> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca]
    >>> Sent: October 27, 2007 6:13 AM
    >>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com
    >>> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    >>
    >>> To all those who complain about me.

    >>
    >>> There will come a time (perhaps sooner rather than later) where I
    >>> really
    >>> just won't care anymore about VMS and will laugh instead of cry
    >>> when HP execs go in public to mention that VMS is for the installed
    >>> based only and will now refrain from saying anything more than "we
    >>> will continue to
    >>> support it" (with the word "developed" no longer mentioned.) And
    >>> when HP
    >>> announces the end of the line for VMS, it won't bother me anymore
    >>> because I will have moved on to a platform that doesn't generate so
    >>> much
    >>> anger and incertainty because the vendor is unwilling to do the
    >>> simplest
    >>> things to market the product and try to give it the life it
    >>> deserves.

    >>
    >>> I was about to write a nice "press release" example to show what HP
    >>> could have done to really celebrate the 30th anniversary, but you
    >>> know what, I don't care anymore.

    >>
    >>> TO Mr Main: you essentially called me a twit for thinking it was
    >>> possible for a multi-billion dollar corporation to put one its own
    >>> own products on its front web page: minutes later, someone pointed
    >>> out that it had in fact been put on the HP web page in a
    >>> semi-visible way (doesn't work with secured browsers). I don't
    >>> expect an apology from you, but I hope you have learned that even
    >>> for large corporations, where
    >>> there is a will, there is a way.

    >>
    >> First - I did not infer you were a twit. On the contrary, While I
    >> may not agree with all of the doom-n-gloom, you have a huge passion
    >> for OpenVMS and technically very astute. There is no doubt about
    >> that.
    >>
    >> Apology? I was simply pointing out that the main HP.com page is
    >> usually reserved for Mom and Pop looking for entertainment, printer
    >> drivers, laptops and desktop type stuff.
    >>
    >> And I was not kidding when I said HP literally has hundreds of
    >> products.
    >>
    >> The fact that HP put OpenVMS on the main site is a huge step for HP
    >> - when was the last time anyone saw HP-UX or NSK on the front page
    >> like this?

    >
    > It doesn't matter to him or others like him. I can see it now:
    >
    > "Yeah, it's on the front page, but that's only if you look at it!"
    >
    > -OR-
    >
    > "... but that's only if you go to the site!" (!!!)
    >
    >> In the past, threads here were full of "Why can't HP get Mark Hurd
    >> to say some positive things about OpenVMS?" and "why can't HP
    >> promote OpenVMS
    >> more on its non-OpenVMS web pages?"

    >
    > Again, I can hear the following:
    >
    > "Yeah, but that's only if you listen to him!"
    >
    > I'm surprised these comments haven't already been made! ;-)
    >
    >> So, HP made both these happen and yet there are still some on this
    >> list who refuse to even acknowledge this as a good thing.

    >
    > Yep! I, for one, think this is great.
    >
    >>
    >> Yes, there is lots more to do, but as they say, lets enjoy the
    >> moment.

    >
    > Agreed! Some POSITIVE letters to hp execs wouldn't hurt. Be thankful
    > and encourage more of the same.
    >
    > [...]
    >
    >> Regards
    >>
    >> Kerry Main
    >> Senior Consultant
    >> HP Services Canada
    >> Voice: 613-592-4660
    >> Fax: 613-591-4477
    >> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    >> (remove the DOT's and AT)
    >>
    >> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.

    >
    > Another great sig worth the repetition it gets.
    >
    > AEF


    Hey, I think it is a step forward (as Kerry pointed out) that VMS is getting
    a bit of visibility. Too little too late, but every move in the right
    direction is a good move.

    Dweeb



  2. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Ken Robinson wrote:
    > On 10/27/07, Dr. Dweeb wrote (in part):
    >
    >> Anyway, guys, like I have said before - there is no future for VMS
    >> because HP does not want one. It constitutes about 1% of the
    >> revenues (a wild unsubstantiated guess to make a point) and is thus
    >> off Hurd's radar. We all need to deal with it and get on with our
    >> lives, looking after our families and looking forward to retirement
    >> on some tropical island.

    >
    > There's a good article on internetnews.com about the 30th Anniversary
    > . It seems
    > to contradict your opinion. One quote I find particularly interesting
    > is "As part of its anniversary celebrations, HP is rolling out a new
    > marketing campaign for the middle-aged OS,".
    >


    I have not seen any evidence of this new campaign. Some references would be
    nice.

    Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
    PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
    I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
    backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
    have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
    myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
    alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.

    And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
    few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
    intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).

    And this is from someone who made a good career and fed his family for
    decades via VMS.


    Dweeb.

    > Ken




  3. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 03:16:43 -0700, IanMiller wrote:

    >Visit
    >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
    >and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
    >
    >Post your own message at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html



    Tongue-in-cheek Personal Opinion
    (as it always is... :-)

    *The amazing OS you've never heard of*

    Positive, self-depreciating humor mixed with a little wonder and mystery.

    Let's see, in less than a month, I have been transformed from a legacy
    programmer, writing code on a perceived near dead OS, for a market segment
    that the Vendor has yet to acknowledge, into a programmer that writes
    heavily researched, highly auditable 64 bit Small Business applications on
    the most amazing OS you've never heard of.

    How cool is that. :-)
    And I'm from Nova Scotia :-)


    *Looking Toward The Future*

    Positive and forward sounding mixed with hope and no false promises.

    If you meant that as a challenge, I accept. :-)

    Does getting OpenVMS on the Small & Medium Business tab within 2-5 years
    sound like a worthwhile goal? :-)


    Thank You Mr Vendor.
    I haven't felt this good about the future of OpenVMS in a long time.

    Duane


  4. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    > Ken Robinson wrote:
    >
    >>On 10/27/07, Dr. Dweeb wrote (in part):
    >>
    >>
    >>>Anyway, guys, like I have said before - there is no future for VMS


    > And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
    > few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
    > intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
    >

    Look no further. I'm available!




  5. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On 10/28/07 10:00, Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    [snip]
    >
    > Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
    > PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
    > I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
    > backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I


    Why does backup/recovery have to be so complicated? Are IBM (and
    presumably Burroughs and Univac) and DEC developers the only
    competent ones in the world?

    > have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
    > myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
    > alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
    >
    > And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
    > few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
    > intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
    >
    > And this is from someone who made a good career and fed his family for
    > decades via VMS.


    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  6. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On 10/28/07, Dr. Dweeb wrote (in part):
    > I have not seen any evidence of this new campaign. Some references would be
    > nice.


    Neither have I, that's why I found that quote interesting.

    >
    > Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
    > PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
    > I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
    > backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
    > have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
    > myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
    > alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
    >
    > And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
    > few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
    > intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).


    If you can't find an experienced System Manager, train a new one. All
    of the people who are/have been VMS System Managers didn't come fully
    trained in their first positions. We learned via formal training, on
    the job training, at DECUS symposiums (now VMS Boot Camp), and later
    by using on-line resources.

    Yes, the experienced VMS System Managers are few and far between, but
    we are out here and many would jump at the chance to do a migration TO
    VMS.

    BTW, my contract just got extended for another 6 months, so I may be
    available at the end of June. Where are you located?? :-)

    Ken

  7. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 10/28/07 10:00, Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    > [snip]
    >
    >>Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
    >>PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
    >>I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
    >>backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I

    >
    >
    > Why does backup/recovery have to be so complicated? Are IBM (and
    > presumably Burroughs and Univac) and DEC developers the only
    > competent ones in the world?
    >
    >


    Because, unless you can shut down the application(s) and quiesce the
    system, you are shooting at a moving target! It's a rare system that
    you can just shut down because you think you ought to make a backup!

    People go through some very complex gyrations to get a consistent
    snapshot of the system because it CAN'T be down.


  8. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On 10/28/07 10:58, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
    > Ron Johnson wrote:
    >> On 10/28/07 10:00, Dr. Dweeb wrote:
    >> [snip]
    >>
    >>> Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that
    >>> is a PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so
    >>> many issues I have in terms of uptime and management, but most
    >>> significantly, backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance -
    >>> but you know what? I

    >>
    >>
    >> Why does backup/recovery have to be so complicated? Are IBM (and
    >> presumably Burroughs and Univac) and DEC developers the only
    >> competent ones in the world?
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Because, unless you can shut down the application(s) and quiesce the
    > system, you are shooting at a moving target! It's a rare system that
    > you can just shut down because you think you ought to make a backup!
    >
    > People go through some very complex gyrations to get a consistent
    > snapshot of the system because it CAN'T be down.


    It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
    how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
    only transaction...)

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  9. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Ron Johnson wrote:

    > It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
    > how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
    > only transaction...)
    >


    It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.

    It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
    non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
    few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
    is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
    handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
    don't shadow the whole database...)

    Jan-Erik.

  10. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On 10/28/07 12:52, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    > Ron Johnson wrote:
    >
    >> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
    >> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
    >> only transaction...)
    >>

    >
    > It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
    >
    > It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
    > non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
    > few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
    > is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
    > handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
    > don't shadow the whole database...)


    I'll repeat it again, but in terms specific to your reply:
    SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science. DEC
    engineers figured it out 23 years ago.

    Probably even longer than that, depending on when DBMS-32 was
    released. (Since DBMS and Rdb share the same KODA engine.)

    Maybe even DBMS-11 also had SERIALIZABLE read only transactions?

    --
    Ron Johnson, Jr.
    Jefferson LA USA

    Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
    Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!

  11. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 10/28/07 12:52, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    >> Ron Johnson wrote:
    >>
    >>> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
    >>> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
    >>> only transaction...)
    >>>

    >> It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
    >>
    >> It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
    >> non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
    >> few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
    >> is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
    >> handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
    >> don't shadow the whole database...)

    >
    > I'll repeat it again,...


    No need to, since I never said you're wrong, did I?
    I just mentioned that *other* DBMS engines hasn't
    implemented that non-rocket science...

    > but in terms specific to your reply:
    > SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science.


    Other databases does that, but usualy by running an
    exclusive R/O trans, locking the actual tables for
    update during the R/O trans. Rdb does not.

    Jan-Erik.

  12. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    In article <7dd80f60710261225j23705bd4h4538518023f2362@mail.gm ail.com>, "Ken Robinson" writes:
    >
    > It's out on the main hp.com page right now. You will see it if the
    > "Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.


    Dang. I had a hard time finding it. It's at the top of the page in
    BIG LETTERS, the last place I looked!


  13. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Bob Koehler wrote:
    > In article <7dd80f60710261225j23705bd4h4538518023f2362@mail.gm ail.com>, "Ken Robinson" writes:
    >> It's out on the main hp.com page right now. You will see it if the
    >> "Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.

    >
    > Dang. I had a hard time finding it. It's at the top of the page in
    > BIG LETTERS, the last place I looked!
    >


    He he. :-)

    That actualy happend to me also.
    In fact I swapped between the front page and the
    specific "Large Enterprise Business" page *several times*
    and could not understand why they had used the same guy
    for that front-page banner before I say that it actualy
    *was* the VMS banner... :-) :-)

    I was looking for some small text-based info/link.

    Jan-Erik.

  14. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On Oct 29, 9:50 am, Jan-Erik Söderholm
    wrote:
    > Bob Koehler wrote:
    > > In article <7dd80f60710261225j23705bd4h4538518023f2...@mail.gm ail.com>,"Ken Robinson" writes:
    > >> It's out on the main hp.com page right now. You will see it if the
    > >> "Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.

    >
    > > Dang. I had a hard time finding it. It's at the top of the page in
    > > BIG LETTERS, the last place I looked!

    >
    > He he. :-)
    >
    > That actualy happend to me also.
    > In fact I swapped between the front page and the
    > specific "Large Enterprise Business" page *several times*
    > and could not understand why they had used the same guy
    > for that front-page banner before I say that it actualy
    > *was* the VMS banner... :-) :-)
    >
    > I was looking for some small text-based info/link.
    >
    > Jan-Erik.


    Well, of course you found it in the last place you looked. Why would
    you keep looking once you found it? Therefore, you always find
    something in the last place you look. :-)

    AEF


  15. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On Oct 25, 6:16 am, IanMiller wrote:
    > Visithttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
    > and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
    >
    > Post your own message athttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html


    30 years have slid by already? Why it just seems like yesterday when
    we were learning how to use RT-11 on PDP-11/04.

    :-)

    We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
    never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
    Alpha.

    Neil Rieck
    Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
    Ontario, Canada.
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/


  16. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Ron Johnson wrote:
    > On 10/28/07 12:52, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
    >> Ron Johnson wrote:
    >>
    >>> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
    >>> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
    >>> only transaction...)
    >>>

    >>
    >> It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
    >>
    >> It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
    >> non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
    >> few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
    >> is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
    >> handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
    >> don't shadow the whole database...)

    >
    > I'll repeat it again, but in terms specific to your reply:
    > SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science. DEC
    > engineers figured it out 23 years ago.
    >
    > Probably even longer than that, depending on when DBMS-32 was
    > released. (Since DBMS and Rdb share the same KODA engine.)
    >
    > Maybe even DBMS-11 also had SERIALIZABLE read only transactions?


    I do not have Rdb

    It may not be rocket science, but the capability requires lots of stuff
    designed in the engine (like Rdb).
    SQLServer2005 has a form of RO transaction, but that is only part of the
    solution to part of the problem.

    Dweeb



  17. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck
    wrote:

    > We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
    > never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
    > Alpha.


    Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
    a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration

    --
    PL/I for OpenVMS
    www.kednos.com

  18. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    In article , "Tom Linden" writes:
    >On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck
    >wrote:
    >
    >> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
    >> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
    >> Alpha.

    >
    >Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
    >a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
    >

    A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
    software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
    VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
    couldn't keep up with the competition.



    David Webb
    Security team leader
    CCSS
    Middlesex University

    >--
    >PL/I for OpenVMS
    >www.kednos.com


  19. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    In article ,
    david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    > In article , "Tom Linden" writes:
    >>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
    >>> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
    >>> Alpha.

    >>
    >>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
    >>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
    >>

    > A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
    > software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
    > VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
    > couldn't keep up with the competition.


    Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
    performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
    technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.

    bill

    --
    Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
    bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
    University of Scranton |
    Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include

  20. Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young

    Bill Gunshannon wrote:
    > In article ,
    > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
    >
    >>In article , "Tom Linden" writes:
    >>
    >>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck
    >>>wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
    >>>>never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
    >>>>Alpha.
    >>>
    >>>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
    >>>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
    >>>

    >>
    >>A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
    >>software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
    >>VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
    >>couldn't keep up with the competition.

    >
    >
    > Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
    > performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
    > technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.
    >
    > bill
    >


    That's one of those things that we will probably never know.

    Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally
    faster than CISC.


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