ANN: .NET Mono for VMS - VMS

This is a discussion on ANN: .NET Mono for VMS - VMS ; Hi, How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS, Alpha or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to: 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients 2. use OpenVMS as a host for ...

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Thread: ANN: .NET Mono for VMS

  1. ANN: .NET Mono for VMS

    Hi,

    How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS, Alpha
    or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to:

    1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients
    2. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Servers
    3. both of the above

    "Mono" is an Open Source initiative. We have port(ing)ed it to OpenVMS
    8.3 on Alpha and Integrity to try and justify our existence (nothing better
    to
    do...*literally*).

    See: -
    http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page

    We at Team-IMM have become increasingly irritated at the smart-arses and
    tattle-tales out there that have seen fit to inform the audience at large
    that the "Great Oz" of HP VMS Consultancy Fees is just another useless
    wanker talking into a loud-speaker! But more importantly, our JFTB revenue
    stream, that we had lined up for the next six months (in the form of Glass
    Fish), has suddenly disappeared because Arne et al have pointed out that we
    didn't in fact saw our lovely assistant in half, and that it was all smoke
    and mirrors, so for our next trick we've had to come up with something
    completely hackneyed - and that, ladies and gentlemen, is .NET Mono!

    "Mono" is our chance to "leverage the affinity" (where have you heard that
    before?) between our two great OSs. Obviously, it would be imprudent to put
    all [y]our eggs in the Scott McNealy basket so we at IMM have decided to
    continue our history of full-blown support for COM (somehow skiiping COM+
    and Managed Services along the road) all the way to .NET.

    Remember! - UNIX is the enemy, Eurasia has *always* been the enemy!

    So all that one or two of you have to do is simply reply to this post and
    that's all the authorization me and my buddies need to spend a couple of
    million of your lovely VMS license dollars on our (Glass Fish replacement)
    retirement plan. Please make it so.

    C'mon, VMS doesn't have long left and just 'cos you're suffering doesn't
    mean we all should; what are you - communists? We at IMM were born to rule
    you stinking pigs - so just cough up and get on with it; maybe they really
    are showers?

    Cheers, VMS Middle Management Carpet-Bagger



  2. RE: .NET Mono for VMS

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com]
    > Sent: October 21, 2007 6:48 AM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: ANN: .NET Mono for VMS
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS,
    > Alpha
    > or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to:
    >
    > 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients
    > 2. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Servers
    > 3. both of the above
    >
    > "Mono" is an Open Source initiative. We have port(ing)ed it to OpenVMS
    > 8.3 on Alpha and Integrity to try and justify our existence (nothing
    > better
    > to
    > do...*literally*).
    >
    > See: -
    > http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page
    >


    [snip...]

    Richard,

    Thx for pointer - I had not heard about this Mono project .. very interesting.

    Quick thought - are you planning to simply get Mono to run on OpenVMS or aspart of the port, adopt it to take advantage of some of the strengths of OpenVMS i.e. A-A clustering, high security etc?

    See my earlier posts on future challenges associated with Windows/Linux onebus app, one OS instances. Would be nice to have a place to park some of these Apps on a multi-app sharing, high security platform. Many of these Apps today have no DR/DT associated with them, but many Cust's are struggling to find ways to add DT to them (and its not a pretty site).

    :-)

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  3. Re: .NET Mono for VMS

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > Thx for pointer - I had not heard about this Mono project .. very
    > interesting.


    It is rather well known.

    There were a couple of threads about here back in 2005.

    > Quick thought - are you planning to simply get Mono to run on OpenVMS
    > or as part of the port, adopt it to take advantage of some of the
    > strengths of OpenVMS i.e. A-A clustering, high security etc?


    Mono & C# is no different than Fortran, Pascal or Cobol in that
    regard.

    Arne


  4. Re: ANN: .NET Mono for VMS

    Richard Maher wrote:
    > How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS, Alpha
    > or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to:
    >
    > 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients
    > 2. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Servers
    > 3. both of the above


    I somehow suspect that you are not all serious.

    I don't think HP will find a business case to do the port.

    But volunteers definitely should do it.

    It should be possible. It is already ported to a bunch
    of Unix and Unix like OS'es.

    The VMS C library is much more Unix compatible than it
    was 15 years ago.

    Mono is thread oriented not forking oriented.

    It do run on Linux/IA64, so there must be some IA64 JIT code
    (Alpha could be hard though).

    All that is needed is 10-20 people who thinks it is actually fun to
    write code for VMS.

    But I am not too optimistic.

    Arne


  5. RE: .NET Mono for VMS

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    > Sent: October 21, 2007 4:17 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: .NET Mono for VMS
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > > Thx for pointer - I had not heard about this Mono project .. very
    > > interesting.

    >
    > It is rather well known.
    >
    > There were a couple of threads about here back in 2005.
    >
    > > Quick thought - are you planning to simply get Mono to run on OpenVMS
    > > or as part of the port, adopt it to take advantage of some of the
    > > strengths of OpenVMS i.e. A-A clustering, high security etc?

    >
    > Mono & C# is no different than Fortran, Pascal or Cobol in that
    > regard.
    >
    > Arne


    Yes, but all clusters (on all platforms) typically require applications to follow
    a set of rules native to that platform in order to take advantage of the clustering
    available on that platform.

    It is one thing to get an application to simply run on a platform, but to get it
    Running & supported in an A-A cluster is another level of planning, design and
    testing.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.







  6. Re: ANN: .NET Mono for VMS

    Richard Maher wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS, Alpha
    > or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to:
    >
    > 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients
    > 2. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Servers
    > 3. both of the above
    >

    Right now I have no applications which need it. However in (near) future
    it will be rather probably that we can make good use of it in some
    projects we have together with industries, who base their whole
    development on .NET applications.

    Jouk

  7. Re: .NET Mono for VMS

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    >>> Quick thought - are you planning to simply get Mono to run on OpenVMS
    >>> or as part of the port, adopt it to take advantage of some of the
    >>> strengths of OpenVMS i.e. A-A clustering, high security etc?

    >> Mono & C# is no different than Fortran, Pascal or Cobol in that
    >> regard.

    >
    > Yes, but all clusters (on all platforms) typically require applications to follow
    > a set of rules native to that platform in order to take advantage of the clustering
    > available on that platform.
    >
    > It is one thing to get an application to simply run on a platform, but to get it
    > Running & supported in an A-A cluster is another level of planning, design and
    > testing.


    It is still the task of those writing the app in C# not the people
    writing the C# compiler and runtime libraries.

    Arne

  8. RE: .NET Mono for VMS

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    > Sent: October 22, 2007 6:42 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: .NET Mono for VMS
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > >>> Quick thought - are you planning to simply get Mono to run on

    > OpenVMS
    > >>> or as part of the port, adopt it to take advantage of some of the
    > >>> strengths of OpenVMS i.e. A-A clustering, high security etc?
    > >> Mono & C# is no different than Fortran, Pascal or Cobol in that
    > >> regard.

    > >
    > > Yes, but all clusters (on all platforms) typically require

    > applications to follow
    > > a set of rules native to that platform in order to take advantage of

    > the clustering
    > > available on that platform.
    > >
    > > It is one thing to get an application to simply run on a platform,

    > but to get it
    > > Running & supported in an A-A cluster is another level of planning,

    > design and
    > > testing.

    >
    > It is still the task of those writing the app in C# not the people
    > writing the C# compiler and runtime libraries.
    >
    > Arne


    Technically, you are partially right i.e. clustering requires multiple
    levels of support i.e. HW, OS, DB and Applications in order for a complete
    overall clustering solution.

    Regards


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.




  9. Re: ANN: .NET Mono for VMS

    Arne Vajhj wrote:
    > Richard Maher wrote:
    > > How many people would be interested in running .NET Mono on OpenVMS, Alpha
    > > or Integrity? Of those, how many would want to:
    > >
    > > 1. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Clients
    > > 2. use OpenVMS as a host for their .NET Servers
    > > 3. both of the above


    > I somehow suspect that you are not all serious.


    I fear you are right, though I would absolutely love to be proven wrong. I
    for one really want to see a working .NET implementation on OpenVMS/Alpha.
    I suspect that anyone serious about this should take a look at Portable.NET
    http://www.gnu.org/software/dotgnu/ even though I would prefer to see Mono.

    > Mono is thread oriented not forking oriented.


    > It do run on Linux/IA64, so there must be some IA64 JIT code
    > (Alpha could be hard though).


    One advantage to Portable.NET is that it supports a wider range of
    platforms, has been ported to both Alpha and ia64. The downside being, I'm
    pretty sure they were running Linux.

    Zane


  10. Re: Disbelief!

    Richard Maher wrote:
    > Why anyone would want .NET on VMS escapes me;


    It is a good framework.

    > The point I was trying to make was that this is exactly the type of
    > Fool's-errand that VMS middle management will stump up the funds for.


    I doubt it. Too expensive.

    > Sadly, one simple fact that no one (certainly not at VMS) seems interested
    > in, is that all of the VMS installed-base out there (Read: Existing
    > Customers that are paying the bills) are using *Procedural* languages such
    > as COBOL, BASIC, Pascal and Fortran


    So you think available apps for VMS and the numbers of VMS systems
    around is going the right direction, so need to change ?

    > They do not want (feel the the need or shame) to wrapper their "legacy"
    > architecture in some object-oriented ribbon just so as to make it more
    > palatable (digestable) to an Apache, Tomcat, PHP, SOAP, Axis, Java
    > architecture that barely runs on VMS and must've had a development-budget
    > that'd make the US Defence Department blush! They don't understand the
    > whole concept of WSDL and having to "Serialize" an object to a stream of
    > bytes to send it over a Socket (that they could be doing themselves anyway)
    > and reassemble the nodes/attributes/values on the server side only to
    > flatten it out again to present it to their 3GL! They do not understand
    > using
    > a poorly performing connectionless page-trabsfer protocol such as HTTP
    > as an application middlware backbone! (Networks are pretty unreliable
    > these days eh?)


    The reality is that most companies are using a plethora of technologies
    today and that integration is necessary.

    Platforms that are not integratable is a endangered species.

    > VMS still *is* the best server OS on the market! All your customers are
    > crying out for (and if you ever spent any time developing "with them" rather
    > than preaching "at them" you'd realize) is just a modern GUI and Webifying
    > options for their existing, reliable, and high-performance servers. This has
    > *never* required/mandated a complete re-tooling of their server-development
    > departments or a paradigm-shift with their existing workforce. The sad truth
    > is that VMS has been able to do this for years :-(
    > HTML,JavaScript,CSS,Flex,Java GUI front-ends should be standard for VMS
    > applications and true integration with Windows and *NIX in multi-cultural
    > data centres a reality. Why is this not the case?


    The tools you don't like provides the necessary capabilities to do that.

    The reasons that it is not happening is non technical.

    Arne

  11. Re: .NET Mono for VMS

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > Technically, you are partially right i.e. clustering requires multiple
    > levels of support i.e. HW, OS, DB and Applications in order for a complete
    > overall clustering solution.


    But not the compiler or language runtime.

    Arne

  12. RE: .NET Mono for VMS

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    > Sent: November 3, 2007 10:47 PM
    > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com
    > Subject: Re: .NET Mono for VMS
    >
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    > > Technically, you are partially right i.e. clustering requires

    > multiple
    > > levels of support i.e. HW, OS, DB and Applications in order for a

    > complete
    > > overall clustering solution.

    >
    > But not the compiler or language runtime.
    >
    > Arne


    ??

    I must be misunderstanding something - can you expand on this?

    Thanks,


    Kerry Main
    Senior Consultant
    HP Services Canada
    Voice: 613-592-4660
    Fax: 613-591-4477
    kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
    (remove the DOT's and AT)

    OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.



  13. Re: .NET Mono for VMS

    Main, Kerry wrote:
    > From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    >> Main, Kerry wrote:
    >>> Technically, you are partially right i.e. clustering requires multiple
    >>> levels of support i.e. HW, OS, DB and Applications in order for a complete
    >>> overall clustering solution.

    >> But not the compiler or language runtime.

    > ??
    >
    > I must be misunderstanding something - can you expand on this?


    We were discussing a new language (C#) and a new runtime (.NET/Mono)
    for VMS.

    You asked whether it should support VMS clustering.

    I have been trying to explain that neither compiler
    or language runtime are particular relevant for
    clustering.

    Arne

  14. Re: .NET Mono for VMS

    In article <472e5bfe$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes:
    > Main, Kerry wrote:
    >> From: Arne Vajh°j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk]
    >>> Main, Kerry wrote:
    >>>> Technically, you are partially right i.e. clustering requires multiple
    >>>> levels of support i.e. HW, OS, DB and Applications in order for a complete
    >>>> overall clustering solution.
    >>> But not the compiler or language runtime.

    >> ??
    >>
    >> I must be misunderstanding something - can you expand on this?

    >
    > We were discussing a new language (C#) and a new runtime (.NET/Mono)
    > for VMS.
    >
    > You asked whether it should support VMS clustering.
    >
    > I have been trying to explain that neither compiler
    > or language runtime are particular relevant for
    > clustering.


    Perhaps not for C# or .NET, but an implementation of the Ada distributed
    systems annex might have interactions.

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