SIS Volume backup/restore - - Veritas Backup Exec

This is a discussion on SIS Volume backup/restore - - Veritas Backup Exec ; Simple question for which I have been unable to find good documentation -- from MS or Veritas. What does Veritas recommend regarding the backup of a SIS volume? Should I: a. Back up the SIS Common Store Folder b. Go ...

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  1. SIS Volume backup/restore -


    Simple question for which I have been unable to find good documentation --
    from MS or Veritas. What does Veritas recommend regarding the backup of a
    SIS volume? Should I:

    a. Back up the SIS Common Store Folder
    b. Go to the 'Windows 2000', and check the box for:
    "Back up files and directories by following the junction points"

    OR

    c. Both. It seems like doing both would cause the files to backed up twice,
    but since it is safer, that is what I am currently doing. However, my throughput
    from that volume is 1/3 what it is on the non-SIS volume on that machine.
    (49 MB/min vs 161). They are both on the same physical hardware (A hardware
    RAID 5 with two containers), so this seems to me to be in some way SIS-related.


    If you do reply to this, an e-mail would be appreciated, since the http site
    is slow (at least today)and I am blocked from newsgroup access by Big Brother's
    firewall. Thanks!

  2. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -

    In article <3d46e2e7$1@hronntp01.>, LHokanson@svtc.state.va.us says...
    >
    > Simple question for which I have been unable to find good documentation --
    > from MS or Veritas. What does Veritas recommend regarding the backup of a
    > SIS volume? Should I:
    >
    > a. Back up the SIS Common Store Folder
    > b. Go to the 'Windows 2000', and check the box for:
    > "Back up files and directories by following the junction points"
    >
    > OR
    >
    > c. Both. It seems like doing both would cause the files to backed up twice,
    > but since it is safer, that is what I am currently doing. However, my throughput
    > from that volume is 1/3 what it is on the non-SIS volume on that machine.
    > (49 MB/min vs 161). They are both on the same physical hardware (A hardware
    > RAID 5 with two containers), so this seems to me to be in some way SIS-related.
    >
    >
    > If you do reply to this, an e-mail would be appreciated, since the http site
    > is slow (at least today)and I am blocked from newsgroup access by Big Brother's
    > firewall. Thanks!
    >

    I've been trying to get the same answers, regarding BE, here and am
    currently waiting to hear from tech support via email.

    For more info and Ms recomendations see my posts:
    "Does BEv8.6 b/u all files on a Ms RIS/SIS volume?"-7.28 1:47pm
    "More specific info to be confirmed, please."- 7.29 2:08pm

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  3. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore - ALSO!

    In article ,
    notlikely@anywhere.com says...
    > I've been trying to get the same answers, regarding BE, here and am
    > currently waiting to hear from tech support via email.
    >
    > For more info and Ms recomendations see my posts:
    > "Does BEv8.6 b/u all files on a Ms RIS/SIS volume?"-7.28 1:47pm
    > "More specific info to be confirmed, please."- 7.29 2:08pm
    >

    Don't put your RIS/SIS on the same volume as other data!!!!!!!!!

    This is the voice of a hard earned lesson speaking. The groveler grovels
    all data on that volume NOT JUST the RemoteInstall folder (Q299726). The
    database can become corrupt and files can start loosing their reparse
    links and associated data thereby disabling any security rights and thus
    access.



    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  4. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -


    Thanks for the reply, Howie. Did you ever get any info back from Veritas?

    You know, I actually thought that having user data on SIS disk was a positive
    thing; at least M$ portrays it that way. I've been migrating over. You actually
    had the SIS database corrupt?!?!?! Do you think this is a common problem?

  5. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -

    In article <3d4a7efa$1@hronntp01.>, lhokanson@svtc.state.va.us says...
    > Thanks for the reply, Howie. Did you ever get any info back from Veritas?
    >
    > You know, I actually thought that having user data on SIS disk was a positive
    > thing; at least M$ portrays it that way. I've been migrating over. You actually
    > had the SIS database corrupt?!?!?! Do you think this is a common problem?
    >

    Veritas email support said "We are presently working on this issue. We
    will get back to you as soon as possible. Inconvenience caused is
    regretted."

    Where have you see that Ms portrays mixing data with RIS on the same
    volume. Q299726 states, "Typically, it is recommended (as an
    alternative) that you store unrelated RIS data on a volume other than
    the one that contains the RemoteInstall folder." I'm not attacking your
    belief, I'm just curious.

    The error was that the Groveler database was corrupt and the service had
    stopped. Restarting the service gave a USN overrun error (Q247611),
    which had been occuring frequently since RIS install (read on).

    FMI see:
    Q299873
    Q263027
    Q299726
    Q299873

    I don't personally like the idea of putting data on the SIS volume
    because then there's only one copy of the data and it's stored in a non-
    directly-accessible method. All the files that are "duplicates" only
    contain reparse tags that can not be directly read, let alone modified
    (Q262320). For RIS images this doesn't bother me so much (you could even
    use DFS for more reliability (Q273594) but for actual data it scares me.

    BTW, the only way that I could backup all the data in the SIS using
    ntbackup was to uninstall RIS and reboot. Prior to that the files would
    not select.

    :Read On
    In the case I had to take care of there was a lot of duplicate data
    already on the volume (9GB of duplicate data stored in two different
    file structures, because of ongoing data migration). And then the RIS CD
    image and an uploaded workstation image got dropped on the volume within
    a few hours of each other. This means the groveler was working it's butt
    off creating a 9GB SIS volume and db--not exactly normal behavior.
    ....So, no I don't think this is a common problem. However, it would make
    more sense to me that the groveler only grovels the RemoteInstall
    folder. I'm told that it can be tweaked with registry settings to
    include certain other folders but would be a pain to exclude a bunch of
    folders.

    In summary, I'm really curious as to the official Veritas position on
    this matter. Maybe if I get some time oneday I'll test it out. (As if
    that'll happen anytime soon. )

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  6. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -



    >Where have you see that Ms portrays mixing data with RIS on the same volume.

    Q299726 states ...

    Well, I couldn't find it. Actually, I think I may have gotten that out of
    an "Isn't this cool statement" from Mark Minasi's Windows 2000 Server, but
    I won't swear to it. (I don't have it in front of me). It made sense to me,
    because I have users that keep an awful lot of duplicate garbage in their
    folders, and user education gets you just so far. The SIS used in Exchange
    certainly has worked flawlessly for me for years, and saved huge amounts
    of storage space, so taking this idea to a file system seemed to me to be
    an idea whose time had come ... but only if the implementation is reliable
    - I certainly don't want to join you in the hell that must have been a corrupted
    SIS database. And apparently Veritas is not confident in the reliability
    of their Remote Agent SIS driver, or they would put out an article on best
    practices of RIS drive backup.



    But in looking, I found something even more interesting:
    W2K Server Service Pack 3 is fixing SIS behaviour to affect only the RemoteInstall
    directory! Q324954

    >The error was that the Groveler database was corrupt and the service had


    >stopped. Restarting the service gave a USN overrun error (Q247611),
    >which had been occuring frequently since RIS install (read on).
    >
    >FMI see:
    >Q299873
    >Q263027
    >Q299726
    >Q299873
    >
    >I don't personally like the idea of putting data on the SIS volume
    >because then there's only one copy of the data and it's stored in a non-
    >directly-accessible method. All the files that are "duplicates" only
    >contain reparse tags that can not be directly read, let alone modified
    >(Q262320). For RIS images this doesn't bother me so much (you could even


    >use DFS for more reliability (Q273594) but for actual data it scares me.
    >
    >BTW, the only way that I could backup all the data in the SIS using
    >ntbackup was to uninstall RIS and reboot. Prior to that the files would


    >not select.
    >
    >:Read On
    >In the case I had to take care of there was a lot of duplicate data
    >already on the volume (9GB of duplicate data stored in two different
    >file structures, because of ongoing data migration). And then the RIS CD


    >image and an uploaded workstation image got dropped on the volume within


    >a few hours of each other. This means the groveler was working it's butt


    >off creating a 9GB SIS volume and db--not exactly normal behavior.
    >....So, no I don't think this is a common problem. However, it would make


    >more sense to me that the groveler only grovels the RemoteInstall
    >folder. I'm told that it can be tweaked with registry settings to
    >include certain other folders but would be a pain to exclude a bunch of


    >folders.
    >
    >In summary, I'm really curious as to the official Veritas position on
    >this matter. Maybe if I get some time oneday I'll test it out. (As if
    >that'll happen anytime soon. )
    >
    >--
    >Howie
    >"The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    >is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    >Ayya Khema



  7. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -


    Sorry, hit the wrong keys, and the last message posted before I was done.
    (I am using the little tiny text box on the Veritas support page because
    Port 110 is blocked on our firewall).


    > All the files that are "duplicates" only contain reparse tags
    > that can not be directly read, let alone modified (Q262320).


    That article assumes the SIS driver is not in operation (failure, restore
    to a non-SIS drive, etc). Assuming the SIS driver is working, wouldn't a
    temp copy of an edited file be saved over the reparse point? Still I see
    your point, SIS is certainly a vulnerability - I'm back to the reliability
    question.

    > For RIS images this doesn't bother me so much (you could even
    > use DFS for more reliability (Q273594) but for actual data it scares me.


    Yes, well, DFS has its own remote backup problems with Backup Exec. My DFS
    linked folders are 'invisible' to the BE adminstrative console. I check the
    folder, but BE thinks it is empty. (I am not talking about backing up through
    DFS shares or the DFS root folder - a perfectly normal backup through the
    administrative share exhibits this problem on any underlying folder *additionally*
    linked in DFS). Remove the link to DFS - voila! everthing works again. But
    that is a different post.

    >>BTW, the only way that I could backup all the data in the SIS using
    >>ntbackup was to uninstall RIS and reboot. Prior to that the files would

    >
    >>not select.


    So NTBackup does not know how to use the SIS driver locally? That's pathetic.

    >>....So, no I don't think this is a common problem. However, it would make
    >>more sense to me that the groveler only grovels the RemoteInstall
    >>folder.


    SERVICE PACK 3!!!

    THANKS FOR ALL THE INFORMATION, Howie. You have helped me a lot.

  8. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -

    In article <3d4beecf$1@hronntp01.>, lhokanson@svtc.state.va.us says...
    > But in looking, I found something even more interesting:
    > W2K Server Service Pack 3 is fixing SIS behaviour to affect only the RemoteInstall
    > directory! Q324954
    >

    Whoohooo! Thanks for the heads up.
    The timing was off a bit but it'll problably help others.

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  9. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore -


    > > All the files that are "duplicates" only contain reparse tags
    > > that can not be directly read, let alone modified (Q262320).

    >
    > That article assumes the SIS driver is not in operation (failure, restore
    > to a non-SIS drive, etc). Assuming the SIS driver is working, wouldn't a
    > temp copy of an edited file be saved over the reparse point? Still I see
    > your point, SIS is certainly a vulnerability - I'm back to the reliability
    > question.
    >

    I was wondering myself what the groveler did with files that were once
    the same (and thus made a SIS of them) and then differed. In my case the
    ..exe files were the most corrupt--no security tab/permissions at all.
    Maybe there's some kind of logic the groveler uses to decide what to
    grovel. Unfortunately it also, somehow, started affecting other files by
    removing the ability to enforce the permissions. The permissions
    reappeared, for the most part, on the data files once I took ownership.

    As far as reliability, the sp3 fix shows either a public request or a
    fix. No doubt the YMMV is in affect.

    > > For RIS images this doesn't bother me so much (you could even
    > > use DFS for more reliability (Q273594) but for actual data it scares me.

    >
    > Yes, well, DFS has its own remote backup problems with Backup Exec. My DFS
    > linked folders are 'invisible' to the BE adminstrative console. I check the
    > folder, but BE thinks it is empty. (I am not talking about backing up through
    > DFS shares or the DFS root folder - a perfectly normal backup through the
    > administrative share exhibits this problem on any underlying folder *additionally*
    > linked in DFS). Remove the link to DFS - voila! everthing works again. But
    > that is a different post.


    Yeah, I'm not impressed with BE's inability to see non-local 'drives'.

    >
    > >>BTW, the only way that I could backup all the data in the SIS using
    > >>ntbackup was to uninstall RIS and reboot. Prior to that the files would

    > >
    > >>not select.

    >
    > So NTBackup does not know how to use the SIS driver locally? That's pathetic.
    >


    My guess was that it's a safety thing so that the groveler, SIS storage,
    and data extraction don't fight over the same items.


    > >>....So, no I don't think this is a common problem. However, it would make
    > >>more sense to me that the groveler only grovels the RemoteInstall
    > >>folder.

    >
    > SERVICE PACK 3!!!
    >
    > THANKS FOR ALL THE INFORMATION, Howie. You have helped me a lot.
    >

    No worries, that's what I love about newsgroups. Thanks again for the
    heads up on RIS behavior with sp3.

    **Hopefully Veritas will come through with some info on the issue--soon!

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  10. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore - OFFICIAL RESPONSE --long

    In article ,
    notlikely@anywhere.com says...
    > Veritas email support said "We are presently working on this issue. We
    > will get back to you as soon as possible. Inconvenience caused is
    > regretted."
    >

    Official response to how to backup RIS followed by my ensuing questions.
    Last two paragraphs of this post may be the most important.

    ***
    Begin Official Response
    ***
    Thanks for your patience.

    Firstly, BackupExec invokes the SISbkup.dll during the backup.

    Secondly, the procedure in MSKB Q299873 is required when you want to
    restore the backup to non SIS drive.

    We have simulated following scenario in our lab to recover the SIS
    volume and it works successfully.

    1. Installed the RIS server on system having two hard drives. 2. Created
    RIS volume on the second HDD (D drive). 3. Created two images. 4.
    Performed the backup of second HDD (D$) with "Backup files and
    directories by following junction points".
    5. Formatted the D$.
    6. Performed the risetup -check as given in MSKB Q263027.
    7. Restored complete "D" drive.
    8. We found that, OS can be installed from restored image (D$).

    Please check if this satisfies your issue.
    Please feel free to revert to us if you need further assistance.
    ***
    End Official Response
    ***

    ***
    Begin My Response
    ***
    Thank you for letting me know that SISbkup.dll is invoked by BE.

    However, there are two questions remaining.
    1) Does BE _ ACTUALLY EXTRACT_ the data for each file when "Backup files
    and directories by following junction points" is selected or are only
    the reparse points backed up? In your scenario you backed up the whole D
    drive.
    I) **What happens if you backup just the images?**
    ii) **Will the data files restore correctly without having the
    SIS--on the volume or even if the SIS is non-existent?**

    The reason that this is an important point is because there are
    occasions that other data may be on the volume that is not part of RIS
    (although some of this behavior is modified by w2k sp3). In this case it
    may be desirable to backup the non-RIS data (that has been groveled and
    is a part of the SIS database) and restore it elsewhere or at a later
    date.

    **If the data _FOR EACH FILE_ is not extracted and backed up separate
    from the SIS then the SIS must be archived for the same duration that
    the data is archived.** In fact, the SIS may even need to be backed up
    and archived multiple times in the event that the data on the SIS volume
    changes dramatically.

    2) Please confirm that RIS was still installed when you backed up 'D'.
    This behavior would differ from ntbackup.exe which could not backup the
    SIS until RIS was uninstalled.

    Thank you for your assistance.
    ***
    End My Response
    ***

    I'm assuming that the answer to my line of questioning was contained in
    their statement, "the procedure in MSKB Q299873 is required when you
    want to restore the backup to non SIS drive."

    This tells me that BE can NOT extract the data for each file that has
    been groveled!!!!!!!! Unless I hear differently from Veritas, BEWARE!!!!

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

  11. Re: SIS Volume backup/restore - MORE Official Response

    In article ,
    notlikely@anywhere.com says...
    > > Veritas email support said "We are presently working on this issue. We
    > > will get back to you as soon as possible. Inconvenience caused is
    > > regretted."
    > >

    > Official response to how to backup RIS followed by my ensuing questions.
    >

    *****
    Begin Veritas Support Email
    *****
    We have simulated this scenario in our lab.

    1. We found that if we perform a backup of DATA( non image) residing on
    the SIS volume, and if we restore it on the other volume ( Non existent
    SIS) then the actual data gets restored properly.

    We also formatted the SIS volume, and then restored the DATA ( backed
    from the SIS) on the other volume ( Non existent SIS) it worked
    properly.

    2. The RIS was installed when we backed up the SIS using Backup EXec.

    We request you to test it in your setup.
    *****
    End Veritas Support Email
    *****

    --
    Howie
    "The only way we can find peace in our own hearts...
    is by changing ourselves, not by changing the world."
    Ayya Khema

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