Jr Unix Administrator - Unix

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  1. Jr Unix Administrator

    Hi, I leave in Fort Lee, NJ
    Right now I'm working as helpdesk. I support A&P stores and corporate
    users for all over US and Canada as a night shift support. I'm the
    only one at the helpdesk at that time and when I get a big problem
    ($$$$$) I have to figure out the best way to follow the problem. , and
    I don't like to call my supervisor. I troubleshoot stores application
    and jobs in an AIX environment. I unlock UNIX user that is the closes I
    get to manage UNIX accounts, but I have to use UNIX command to get
    around. I have experience with Active Directory, VPN, Microsoft
    exchange and more... I have a Mac OS X at home and for a couple of
    month I started playing around with UNIX on the Mac. Since that time,
    I'm hook up with UNIX. I consider my self a fast learner and in a week
    of learning UNIX I was able to write a small script application that
    store contacts in a file and give an option to search on it. I don't
    know if that is fast, but I think it is especially when I never took
    any programming classes. Right now I'm thinking to look for a Junior
    UNIX administrator Job. I not consider myself a UNIX geek because I
    only have like a year working in a UNIX environment and just have 4
    month really learning the OS. Like I said before I'm a fast learner
    and I think there is nothing that I can do. As well I fix a computer I
    can paint wall, put home tiles, fixing walls, fixing floors, do
    electrician job around my house. I always try to learn everything that
    surrounds me. "I don't know how to do it now, but I bet you I will
    do it tomorrow". My question is how hard is to get a Jr Unix job and
    when I get a job the employer will be expecting me to know a lot or
    they will expect that I will learned as I progress in the job. I
    don't like to lie on my resume and on my interview that is why I want
    to know if have the chance that a company hires me for that position.
    Any other suggestion will be appreciated.


  2. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :
    > Hi, I leave in Fort Lee, NJ
    > Right now I'm working as helpdesk. I support A&P stores and corporate
    > users for all over US and Canada as a night shift support. I'm the
    > only one at the helpdesk at that time and when I get a big problem
    > ($$$$$) I have to figure out the best way to follow the problem. , and
    > I don't like to call my supervisor. I troubleshoot stores application
    > and jobs in an AIX environment. I unlock UNIX user that is the closes I
    > get to manage UNIX accounts, but I have to use UNIX command to get
    > around. I have experience with Active Directory, VPN, Microsoft


    [ how to become unix admin ]

    Free suggestions:

    - Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    teach you more.

    - Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.

    - Include breaks in your contributions, to make it better
    readable for others

    Quite a few job announcements these days are a complete joke,
    looking for someone in the lines:

    - +10 years (certified) experience in all major unix[tm] and free
    *nix
    - Guru in Oracle/Informix DB, master of any commercial firewall
    app.
    - Fluently (certified) in IOS including BGP4 and other advanced stuff.
    - Deep (certified) programming skills in at least C, C++, Perl
    and twenty other languages!
    - Foreign experience of at least 3 years and 4-6 languages
    fluently is a must!
    - Full fledged University Degrees/etc. is a must!
    - Not older then 26!
    - Must come cheapo and willing to fix eXPensive PCs during his
    lunch time...

    Obviously there is none who is able to satisfy all off the above.

    Perhaps you need a little luck and a position as (junior) *nix
    admin and work on from there?

    Good luck

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 436: Daemon escaped from pentagram

  3. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Begin
    On 2006-09-12, Michael Heiming wrote:
    > In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :
    > [ how to become unix admin ]
    >
    > Free suggestions:
    >
    > - Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    > teach you more.


    A good book on unix in general helps as well. Especially if you start
    with linux, since while it does carry remnants of a lot of unix history,
    it often doesn't know what to do with it. The BSD descendants don't have
    that problem, of course. Still good to have a general unix book for the
    background.


    > - Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.
    >
    > - Include breaks in your contributions, to make it better
    > readable for others


    Also: RFC1855 would be a good read.


    > Quite a few job announcements these days are a complete joke,
    > looking for someone in the lines:


    Ok, let's see.


    > - +10 years (certified) experience in all major unix[tm] and free
    > *nix


    Only uhm eight or so. Not certified.


    > - Guru in Oracle/Informix DB, master of any commercial firewall
    > app.


    Err. PostgreSQL or MySQL, can support ipf and ipfw. Others? Where's the
    manual?


    > - Fluently (certified) in IOS including BGP4 and other advanced stuff.


    Do know about BGP4 but wouldn't know the details of IOS routers without
    the manual. Oh dear.


    > - Deep (certified) programming skills in at least C, C++, Perl
    > and twenty other languages!


    Not the mythical ``C/C++'' language? I'm surprised!

    C and C++ (and yes, I do know the difference), awk+sed+shell+friends,
    if I have to perl, java, pascal, python, assembly, soon lisp and maybe
    forth again. Fall short by only half. Oh and no paperwork. Ho hum.


    > - Foreign experience of at least 3 years and 4-6 languages
    > fluently is a must!


    Good English, and two other languages. I had schooling in three more in
    high school, including latin and greek for a (short) while. Does that
    count?


    > - Full fledged University Degrees/etc. is a must!


    Pfft. I'll order one online.

    Especially since AFAIK there are no useful college or university level
    sysadmin courses, and the stuff they do teach you in CS is at best good
    enough for enterprise-y (see thedailywtf) environments. And anyway,
    ordering degrees from UoBOS or WTFU seems to be very popular in the us
    gummint anyway, so that should be ok.


    > - Not older then 26!


    What do they do? Sell time machines?

    Oh well, I failed the reqs already. Seems I won't be starting at that
    place then. Who else failed and wants to go for a beer? ;-)


    > - Must come cheapo and willing to fix eXPensive PCs during his
    > lunch time...


    Or worse, ``unix sysadmin with windows affinity''. Why'd you think I
    specialise in running unix systems? Because I like to click icons?
    Hello?


    > Obviously there is none who is able to satisfy all off the above.


    On the other hand, some people (across the pond from me, actually)
    were trying to hire a programmer, but got people who claim university
    education in the subject then fail to remember what a variable
    assignment is or does. And that while the recruiter claimed to vet his
    applicants list. I wonder for what, exactly.


    > Perhaps you need a little luck and a position as (junior) *nix
    > admin and work on from there?


    Yes, altough ``luck'' might not be how I'd define it. Then again, it
    could be a step up from Nth line phone support and babysitting windows
    boxes. It's no improvement in stress levels, though.

    Coming back to the comments at the top: People well versed in unix also
    seem to have an interest and often reasonable competency in the use of
    their human language(s). Of course, people who use unix tend to care for
    good documentation and often enough need to write themselves. Nevermind
    reading it. Then again, the more technical USENET groups do tend to
    frown upon sloppy writing.

    So, if the OP is serious about digging into unix, it might not be a bad
    time to start reading. Lots. :-)


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  4. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    amb1s1 wrote:
    >
    > Right now I'm working as helpdesk...
    > My question is how hard is to get a Jr Unix job ...


    Promotion from Help Desk technicians to UNIX engineers is one
    way folks enter the field. Talk to the managers of the UNIX SA
    team and start lobbying for a promotion.

    Work on your writing skills. Think paragraphs. Technicians
    take notes; engineers write docs. Don't use my lunatic
    abbreviated posting grammar as anything to mimic, either!


  5. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In comp.unix.admin jpd :
    > Begin
    > On 2006-09-12, Michael Heiming wrote:
    >> In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :
    >> [ how to become unix admin ]


    >> Free suggestions:


    >> - Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    >> teach you more.


    > A good book on unix in general helps as well. Especially if you start
    > with linux, since while it does carry remnants of a lot of unix history,
    > it often doesn't know what to do with it. The BSD descendants don't have
    > that problem, of course. Still good to have a general unix book for the
    > background.


    Supported, while you are in front of your Linux/*BSD/Solaris x86
    installation it could come in handy.

    The one that looks most used on my bookshelf "Unix in a
    Nutshell", though not directly a beginners book a must have.

    [..]

    >> - Not older then 26!


    > What do they do? Sell time machines?


    > Oh well, I failed the reqs already. Seems I won't be starting at that
    > place then. Who else failed and wants to go for a beer? ;-)


    Sure anyone fails somewhere, that is just a trick to drop down
    prices...

    >> - Must come cheapo and willing to fix eXPensive PCs during his
    >> lunch time...


    > Or worse, ``unix sysadmin with windows affinity''. Why'd you think I
    > specialise in running unix systems? Because I like to click icons?
    > Hello?


    Might be just added by HR stuff, as the usual seen M$ Office
    requirements?

    [..]

    > So, if the OP is serious about digging into unix, it might not be a bad
    > time to start reading. Lots. :-)


    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 253: We've run out of licenses

  6. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Begin
    On 2006-09-12, Michael Heiming wrote:
    > In comp.unix.admin jpd :
    >> Or worse, ``unix sysadmin with windows affinity''. Why'd you think I
    >> specialise in running unix systems? Because I like to click icons?
    >> Hello?

    >
    > Might be just added by HR stuff, as the usual seen M$ Office
    > requirements?


    In that case, no. That was the title of the ad, and it went downhill
    from there.

    As a sidenote: ``usual'' micros~1 requirements that some HR depts do
    seem to like to add should earn them a new one, as that is actively
    detrimental to filling the position. Sure, they don't know. Surely,
    they could have asked instead of adding changes behind the backs of
    those who do know? Why didn't they write all of the requirements in
    the first place? Because they apparently realised they don't know what
    such requirements should say. Then it follows that they can't assume
    additions made by them aren't harmful, failing to ask whether they can
    make those desired changes amounts to inviting Murphy. Then again, logic
    is a stranger to many people, and if it wasn't a stranger to HR they'd
    not be in HR. Still, this is something to take up with them.


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  7. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    I'd give it up. I can't imagine anyone hiring someone with such poor
    writing skills (even accounting for the possibility of English as a
    second language) in a job which requires attention to detail.

    That said, hardly anyone cares about Mac OS. Get a PC and install one
    of the BSDs and put it on the internet as some kind of server. Then
    do it again using Linux. Then Solaris. That will give you a starting
    point. Pick one application (say webmail) and learn all the ins and
    outs that you can.

    -frank

    On 11 Sep 2006 22:37:51 -0700 "amb1s1" wrote:
    > Hi, I leave in Fort Lee, NJ
    > Right now I'm working as helpdesk. I support A&P stores and corporate
    > users for all over US and Canada as a night shift support. I'm the
    > only one at the helpdesk at that time and when I get a big problem
    > ($$$$$) I have to figure out the best way to follow the problem. , and
    > I don't like to call my supervisor. I troubleshoot stores application
    > and jobs in an AIX environment. I unlock UNIX user that is the closes I
    > get to manage UNIX accounts, but I have to use UNIX command to get
    > around. I have experience with Active Directory, VPN, Microsoft
    > exchange and more... I have a Mac OS X at home and for a couple of
    > month I started playing around with UNIX on the Mac. Since that time,
    > I'm hook up with UNIX. I consider my self a fast learner and in a week
    > of learning UNIX I was able to write a small script application that
    > store contacts in a file and give an option to search on it. I don't
    > know if that is fast, but I think it is especially when I never took
    > any programming classes. Right now I'm thinking to look for a Junior
    > UNIX administrator Job. I not consider myself a UNIX geek because I
    > only have like a year working in a UNIX environment and just have 4
    > month really learning the OS. Like I said before I'm a fast learner
    > and I think there is nothing that I can do. As well I fix a computer I
    > can paint wall, put home tiles, fixing walls, fixing floors, do
    > electrician job around my house. I always try to learn everything that
    > surrounds me. "I don't know how to do it now, but I bet you I will
    > do it tomorrow". My question is how hard is to get a Jr Unix job and
    > when I get a job the employer will be expecting me to know a lot or
    > they will expect that I will learned as I progress in the job. I
    > don't like to lie on my resume and on my interview that is why I want
    > to know if have the chance that a company hires me for that position.
    > Any other suggestion will be appreciated.


  8. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.unix.admin, in article
    , Michael Heiming wrote:

    >In comp.unix.admin jpd :


    >> Or worse, ``unix sysadmin with windows affinity''. Why'd you think I
    >> specialise in running unix systems? Because I like to click icons?
    >> Hello?

    >
    >Might be just added by HR stuff, as the usual seen M$ Office
    >requirements?


    We had to use The Wire Brush Of Enlightenment on a newbie in HR who tried
    to pull that stunt - except it was only MSTurd rather than MSOrfice. It was
    pointed out to her that the word processor she was using was OO. She was
    not aware of the difference (no one in our org runs windoze, even the winners
    in HR). She left the company to pursue other opportunities shortly afterwards.

    >> So, if the OP is serious about digging into unix, it might not be a bad
    >> time to start reading. Lots. :-)


    Absolutely agree.

    Old guy

  9. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In comp.unix.admin Moe Trin :
    > On Tue, 12 Sep 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.unix.admin, in article
    > , Michael Heiming wrote:


    >>In comp.unix.admin jpd :


    >>> Or worse, ``unix sysadmin with windows affinity''. Why'd you think I
    >>> specialise in running unix systems? Because I like to click icons?
    >>> Hello?


    >>Might be just added by HR stuff, as the usual seen M$ Office
    >>requirements?


    > We had to use The Wire Brush Of Enlightenment on a newbie in HR who tried
    > to pull that stunt - except it was only MSTurd rather than MSOrfice. It was
    > pointed out to her that the word processor she was using was OO. She was
    > not aware of the difference (no one in our org runs windoze, even the winners
    > in HR). She left the company to pursue other opportunities shortly afterwards.


    Not unlikely, can remember some user who got a LTSP thin client
    (running KDE) and asked some time later what cool new doze
    version his new computer would run?

    Others just figured out how to run the installed/configured
    citrix client in full screen mode, so they could click around
    happily.

    Or people using exceed from doze to redirect a complete X session
    from some server just to open a single xterm.;(

    In reality there is nothing obvious enough...

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 441: Hash table has woodworm

  10. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In article ,
    Michael Heiming wrote:
    >In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :
    >> Hi, I leave in Fort Lee, NJ
    >> Right now I'm working as helpdesk. I support A&P stores and corporate
    >> users for all over US and Canada as a night shift support. I'm the
    >> only one at the helpdesk at that time and when I get a big problem
    >> ($$$$$) I have to figure out the best way to follow the problem. , and
    >> I don't like to call my supervisor. I troubleshoot stores application
    >> and jobs in an AIX environment. I unlock UNIX user that is the closes I
    >> get to manage UNIX accounts, but I have to use UNIX command to get
    >> around. I have experience with Active Directory, VPN, Microsoft

    >
    >[ how to become unix admin ]
    >
    >Free suggestions:


    >- Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    > teach you more.


    >- Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.


    If he uses *BSD or Linux he has choices of many newsreaders.

    >- Include breaks in your contributions, to make it better
    > readable for others


    And the tools in the above will do that for you - depending upon
    which ones you use.

    >Quite a few job announcements these days are a complete joke,
    >looking for someone in the lines:


    >- +10 years (certified) experience in all major unix[tm] and free
    > *nix
    >- Guru in Oracle/Informix DB, master of any commercial firewall
    > app.
    >- Fluently (certified) in IOS including BGP4 and other advanced stuff.
    >- Deep (certified) programming skills in at least C, C++, Perl
    > and twenty other languages!
    >- Foreign experience of at least 3 years and 4-6 languages
    > fluently is a must!
    >- Full fledged University Degrees/etc. is a must!
    >- Not older then 26!
    >- Must come cheapo and willing to fix eXPensive PCs during his
    > lunch time...


    And I've seen many that post requirements that have nothing to do
    with the job - but since the requirements were set by those who
    don't know what they are doing - things go downhill in a hurry.

    I was an outside-consultant at one place. They needed a person
    to work with the PCs and some Unix type machines. One requirement
    was a CS degree. They hired one with a degree. All he did was
    grouse about hating to work with end-users and wanted to write
    software. He wound up working for a company that specialiazed
    in tape drives writing software. But the PTB that wrote the spec
    >assumed< that a CS degree was what was needed. Boy were they

    wrong.

    As to certifications - I've gone in and fixed things that
    'certified' people broke. So many cert programs just teach you to
    pass the tests :-(

    Bill
    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  11. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >
    > As to certifications - I've gone in and fixed things that
    > 'certified' people broke. So many cert programs just teach you to
    > pass the tests :-(


    Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    certified in surgery? I say certifications can be improved to
    that level and that they should be improved to that level.
    Rhetoric about how poor they are at this point (ACE Certified
    mechanics, right?) don't move them in that direction.

    If there were a UNIX certification worth taking, what would it
    entail to you? I'd like a review board by senior folks in the
    field who work on formalizing real reviews. Of course, the
    initial members couldn't possibly be "senior" by anything
    other than claiming it and having others who also claim it
    not laugh once they examine each others' reputation in the
    field.


  12. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion :
    > In article ,
    > Michael Heiming wrote:
    >>In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :


    [ how to become unix admin ]

    >>Free suggestions:


    >>- Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    >> teach you more.


    >>- Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.


    > If he uses *BSD or Linux he has choices of many newsreaders.


    Sure, seems I left out "nntp server" which most ISP provide, in
    the heat of the moment...
    [..]

    >>- +10 years (certified) experience in all major unix[tm] and free
    >> *nix
    >>- Guru in Oracle/Informix DB, master of any commercial firewall
    >> app.
    >>- Fluently (certified) in IOS including BGP4 and other advanced stuff.
    >>- Deep (certified) programming skills in at least C, C++, Perl
    >> and twenty other languages!
    >>- Foreign experience of at least 3 years and 4-6 languages
    >> fluently is a must!
    >>- Full fledged University Degrees/etc. is a must!
    >>- Not older then 26!
    >>- Must come cheapo and willing to fix eXPensive PCs during his
    >> lunch time...


    > And I've seen many that post requirements that have nothing to do
    > with the job - but since the requirements were set by those who
    > don't know what they are doing - things go downhill in a hurry.


    Some people can't value work if results aren't in some form of M$
    document, usually .ppt. Kept as simple as possible...

    > I was an outside-consultant at one place. They needed a person
    > to work with the PCs and some Unix type machines. One requirement
    > was a CS degree. They hired one with a degree. All he did was
    > grouse about hating to work with end-users and wanted to write
    > software. He wound up working for a company that specialiazed
    > in tape drives writing software. But the PTB that wrote the spec
    > >assumed< that a CS degree was what was needed. Boy were they

    > wrong.


    So they wanted an admin but hired a programmer? ;-)

    [..]

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 192: runaway cat on system.

  13. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    >Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >> As to certifications - I've gone in and fixed things that
    >> 'certified' people broke. So many cert programs just teach you to
    >> pass the tests :-(


    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    >certified in surgery?


    Under the right circumstances, absolutely. The AMA and certifying boards are
    more about protection than standards. I fully expect to have some of my
    surgeries over the next 50 years performed by non-US-certified doctors,
    probably in other countries. They'll likely be certified by SOMEONE, but
    that's because certification is cheap and there's no reason not to have it,
    not because certification causes or guarantees competence. They'll be
    certified by my insurance company, and by me, which is all I can do.

    Ask it the other way: does anyone pay as much for employing, insuring, and
    continuing the education of a system administrator as they do for a surgeon?
    If you were hiring, would you want the extra expense of a rigorous, expensive
    certificate over someone cheaper, but competent and diligent?

    >I say certifications can be improved to that level and that they should
    >be improved to that level.


    I say they cannot be "improved" to that level, as the protectionism and
    monopoly of provider doesn't exist that allows that expense to be incurred.
    Employers can't be forced to use guild-approved admins, so won't pay for it.

    I say they also SHOULD not be "improved" to that level, because people should
    be free to choose whatever admin (and surgeon) they prefer.

    >Rhetoric about how poor they are at this point (ACE Certified
    >mechanics, right?) don't move them in that direction.


    No, it moves it in the opposite, and correct direction: toward the knowledge
    that certification is not competence, it's career protectionism.

    >If there were a UNIX certification worth taking, what would it
    >entail to you? I'd like a review board by senior folks in the
    >field who work on formalizing real reviews.


    Distinguish courses and information from certification and credentialism.
    You'll get a lot farther.
    --
    Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net

  14. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Begin <1159815515.745937.152520@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups. com>
    On 2006-10-02, Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > Vendor vs professional association. [and how it works in the USA]


    And it works along the same lines but differently elsewhere.


    > Our professional society's tests are stuningly underused and
    > so lack funds to further their development.


    Ok. So, how about... putting a specialised orgnaisation behind it? A
    company would contradict what I'd said earlier, so would a college do?
    I don't have contacts at SAGE ATM. Wouldn't mind looking into Stuff,
    though.


    >> It sports a much larger body of knowledge

    > I'm going to be a bit dubious on this point. A good sysadmin
    > can't get away with being a jack of all IT. We've got to be
    > masters of all the aspects we've used.


    Yes, but I'm going to weasel out and say I was talking about the average
    vendor-created certification compared to professional accreditations in
    other fields. That is how I ment it, if not actually said it.


    >> The trouble with your question is that until it has been around in
    >> the wild for a while it's only theoretically answerable.

    >
    > Before SAGE first started working on theirs I thought that
    > too. Now I kick myself for not donating to SAGE instead.


    There's the getting started bit, of course. I do wonder about wheter a
    sa-school.edu type organisation would be viable. Outside the USofA too,
    of course.


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  15. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    > Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    > certified in surgery?


    Surgeons only became surgeons after years of cleaning bandages at
    hospitals. Certified IT professionals can take their tests with zero
    real knowledge.

    Pass the surgeon tests is much easier than actually do a surgery on an
    alive person, the same with IT tests. The difference is that IT
    certifications don't require experience, just money.

    Do you trust doctors that just got out of college? I don't.

    --renato

  16. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    On 2006-10-03, Renato Golin wrote:
    >> Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    >> certified in surgery?

    > Do you trust doctors that just got out of college? I don't.

    Reason?

    --
    Damian Szuberski

  17. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Damian 'legion' Szuberski wrote:
    >> Do you trust doctors that just got out of college? I don't.

    > Reason?


    Real experience. They have much to watch and learn in all areas,
    professional and personal. Treating real patients is quite different
    than opening dead bodies.

    And most of them say things they're not really sure of what can your
    problem be and are still experimenting on you. They'll not kill you, but
    doing more than enough (more tablets, more exams, more chit chat) is
    quite usual.

    It's the same with IT admins, they tend to overdo, rewrite things that
    are already done, over engineering things that were supposed to be
    simple etc.

    That's why a unix admin with 2+ years of experience can be responsible
    for some of his actions and a fresh college guy/gal cannot.

    --renato

    --
    Reclaim your digital rights, eliminate DRM, learn more at
    http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm

  18. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Renato Golin wrote:
    > Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >
    > > Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    > > certified in surgery?

    >
    > Surgeons only became surgeons after years of cleaning bandages at
    > hospitals. Certified IT professionals can take their tests with zero
    > real knowledge.


    Which repeats my point on having a board.

    > Pass the surgeon tests is much easier than actually do a surgery on an
    > alive person, the same with IT tests. The difference is that IT
    > certifications don't require experience, just money.


    Which repeats my point on doing it via professional
    society not vendor.

    > Do you trust doctors that just got out of college? I don't.


    Actually, in the case of doctors rather than surgeons I often
    do. In other parts of the medical field I want the latest stuff.
    But when it comes down to someone cutting me open I want
    experience.

    Which switches my point from professional society to
    university but otherwise repeats it.


  19. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In article <1159807095.361538.185910@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.c om>,
    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >Bill Vermillion wrote:
    >>
    >> As to certifications - I've gone in and fixed things that
    >> 'certified' people broke. So many cert programs just teach you to
    >> pass the tests :-(


    >Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    >certified in surgery?


    There is a HUGE difference between that and the 'certifications'
    I've seen for people working with computers. I've seen some of the
    tests that really require you to give the WRONG answer to pass the
    test - as the test writers didn't understand what they were writing
    about.

    >I say certifications can be improved to
    >that level and that they should be improved to that level.


    Absolutely!!! Many places that 'guarantee' you a certification
    really only teach you how to pass the tests - which seems to be the
    norm in so much education in the US today I'm sorry to say.

    >Rhetoric about how poor they are at this point (ACE Certified
    >mechanics, right?) don't move them in that direction.


    >If there were a UNIX certification worth taking, what would it
    >entail to you?


    I took one of the ones at BrainBench?? It was a couple of years
    ago. I came out as 'expert' and was tied for the highest score in
    the state. However I know some realy gurus - they won't call
    themselves that - whose knowledge is immense.

    >I'd like a review board by senior folks in the
    >field who work on formalizing real reviews. Of course, the
    >initial members couldn't possibly be "senior" by anything
    >other than claiming it and having others who also claim it
    >not laugh once they examine each others' reputation in the
    >field.


    So what we need is knowledgable group who can certify the
    certifiers. The computer business really needs such things
    as in so many instances I've seen a person could get more respect
    by saying they were a used-car-salesman or a lawyer instead
    of computer 'professional'.

    I really wish you could trust the certifications.

    Given that - the few people I know who are Cicso CCIE's realy ARE
    good. But most other certs aren't that good IMO.

    Bill



    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

  20. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In article <5s28v3-sfo.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
    Michael Heiming wrote:
    >In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion :
    >> In article ,
    >> Michael Heiming wrote:
    >>>In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :


    >[ how to become unix admin ]


    >>>Free suggestions:


    >>>- Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    >>> teach you more.


    >>>- Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.


    >> If he uses *BSD or Linux he has choices of many newsreaders.


    >Sure, seems I left out "nntp server" which most ISP provide, in
    >the heat of the moment...
    >[..]


    If he doesn't need much he can run his own newsserver - I have
    40 groups in my active file and run c-news, becuase I don't need
    anything stronger. I get the news article via fetchmail. It's
    simple [at least for me] than setting up nntp - particulary when I
    don't need too many groups.

    ....

    >> I was an outside-consultant at one place. They needed a
    >> person to work with the PCs and some Unix type machines. One
    >> requirement was a CS degree. They hired one with a degree.
    >> All he did was grouse about hating to work with end-users and
    >> wanted to write software. He wound up working for a company
    >> that specialiazed in tape drives writing software. But the PTB
    >> that wrote the spec


    >> >assumed< that a CS degree was what was needed. Boy were they

    >> wrong.


    >So they wanted an admin but hired a programmer? ;-)


    But the people there [an educational institution] didn't understand
    that simple difference - and they never asked anyone who might
    know. Asking seems to be a sign of weakness.

    And most of the CS grads I've known went on to work for HW or SW
    manufacturers - not in the business world. But computer operations
    are [or at least were] so foreign to many in business they assumed
    what they wanted was a person with a CS degree - when they'd be
    better of with someone like an MBA who understood computing.

    Bill





    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

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