Jr Unix Administrator - Unix

This is a discussion on Jr Unix Administrator - Unix ; In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion : > In article , > Michael Heiming wrote: >>In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion : >>> In article , >>> Michael Heiming wrote: >>>>In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 : >>[ how to become unix admin ] >>>>Free suggestions: >>>>- ...

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Thread: Jr Unix Administrator

  1. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion :
    > In article <5s28v3-sfo.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
    > Michael Heiming wrote:
    >>In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion :
    >>> In article ,
    >>> Michael Heiming wrote:
    >>>>In comp.unix.admin amb1s1 :


    >>[ how to become unix admin ]


    >>>>Free suggestions:


    >>>>- Use some *nix OS like Linux/*BSD on your desktop, nothing will
    >>>> teach you more.


    >>>>- Use a real newsreader, any serious ISP provides one for free.


    >>> If he uses *BSD or Linux he has choices of many newsreaders.


    >>Sure, seems I left out "nntp server" which most ISP provide, in
    >>the heat of the moment...
    >>[..]


    > If he doesn't need much he can run his own newsserver - I have
    > 40 groups in my active file and run c-news, becuase I don't need
    > anything stronger. I get the news article via fetchmail. It's
    > simple [at least for me] than setting up nntp - particulary when I
    > don't need too many groups.


    You'd need some kind of SMTP <-> nntp gateway to use fetchmail?

    Personally use leafnode with the nntp server of my ISP, to speed
    up things, enable to run my box weekly stats for a few groups and
    enjoy the powerful kill-filling capabilities leafnode offers
    without depending on any nntp reader. In short, leafnode rocks!
    ;-)

    [..]

    >>So they wanted an admin but hired a programmer? ;-)


    > But the people there [an educational institution] didn't understand
    > that simple difference - and they never asked anyone who might
    > know. Asking seems to be a sign of weakness.


    Indeed, a general problem!

    > And most of the CS grads I've known went on to work for HW or SW
    > manufacturers - not in the business world. But computer operations
    > are [or at least were] so foreign to many in business they assumed
    > what they wanted was a person with a CS degree - when they'd be
    > better of with someone like an MBA who understood computing.


    Being German, I am not that aware about the differences of your
    educational system. But there although is some sort of general
    confusion about those things over here. So it doesn't surprise me
    that much...

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 270: Someone has messed up the kernel pointers

  2. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    >> Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >> > Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    >> > certified in surgery?


    >Renato Golin wrote:
    >> Surgeons only became surgeons after years of cleaning bandages at
    >> hospitals. Certified IT professionals can take their tests with zero
    >> real knowledge.


    Doug Freyburger wrote:
    >Which repeats my point on having a board.


    No. His point is about knowledge and skill gained through experience, not
    about credentialism.

    Would you rather have a surgeon who passed all the tests but has never
    performed a real operation on a living human, or a surgeon who's performed
    hundreds of successful operations but never taken the test?

    I know my answer.
    --
    Mark Rafn dagon@dagon.net

  3. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    Mark Rafn wrote:
    > >Renato Golin wrote:
    > >> Doug Freyburger wrote:

    >
    > >> > Would you agree to surgery by a doctor who wasn't board
    > >> > certified in surgery?

    >
    > >> Surgeons only became surgeons after years of cleaning bandages at
    > >> hospitals. Certified IT professionals can take their tests with zero
    > >> real knowledge.

    >
    > >Which repeats my point on having a board.

    >
    > No.


    Yes. A review board is a group of people who go out and inspect
    work as it is being done. A test is not a board. The difference is
    a humungous difference in quality. This is why the CCIE does
    get respect, because it's done as a review board on work as it
    is being done. As with CCIE the only way to get board approved
    as a surgeon is to do the work while being inspected by a board
    member. As with CCIE there's a bunch of class work to be
    allowed to go before the board.

    > His point is about knowledge and skill gained through experience, not
    > about credentialism.


    Which is why review boards are about the work being done not
    going to some test.

    > Would you rather have a surgeon who passed all the tests but has never
    > performed a real operation on a living human, or a surgeon who's performed
    > hundreds of successful operations but never taken the test?


    And still it's worth the effort to improve tests - CPA, PE, law. Yet
    each and every one of those professions has a face to face review
    board of experienced seniors who go out to make judgements. No
    matter how much a test is improved it never gets to the point where
    it has value absent a review board composed of seniors who go out
    and view the work as it is being done.

    Is there a single vendor cert that includes a review board of seniors
    who will go out and inspect work as it is being done and pull a
    license? It's the only hope for any of them and there is an economic
    incentive against doing so.

    At the moment the only professional society cert I know within IT
    is the SAGE tests and they lack a review board. Until there's a
    review board they can't be improved beyond some point. But with
    SAGE the economic incentive does work in the correct direction.
    A SAGE review board would want to pull licenses from the worst
    for the betterment of the profession.


  4. Re: Jr Unix Administrator

    In article <1cgav3-0gd.ln1@news.heiming.de>,
    Michael Heiming wrote:
    >In comp.unix.admin Bill Vermillion :


    [ huge snip - wjv]

    I had said:

    >> And most of the CS grads I've known went on to work for HW or SW
    >> manufacturers - not in the business world. But computer operations
    >> are [or at least were] so foreign to many in business they assumed
    >> what they wanted was a person with a CS degree - when they'd be
    >> better of with someone like an MBA who understood computing.


    >Being German, I am not that aware about the differences of your
    >educational system. But there although is some sort of general
    >confusion about those things over here. So it doesn't surprise me
    >that much...


    Just by observation the educational system in the US has gone
    downhill over the years. I did some outside work at a small
    educational system and I heard one of the advisors telling a
    student to tell the prospective employer what they wanted to hear -
    and to me it implied lying to get the job.

    When I grew up you were supposed to learn all about something so
    that they could throw any question asked at you and you'd had a
    very good shot at getting right.

    Now the emphasis seems to be on passing the tests - and from
    my POV they train to that goal so you don't really know all about
    the subject you are being tested upon.

    And learning the lowest details is how often I'm able to walk
    in and fix things that 'certified' people can't handle. There is
    only one real clue you need to get things done and that is how to
    read manuals - thoroughly - and understand it.

    At one place where I had been doing 'fitit' work for about 10
    years, only when they called, as the systems were really stable,
    they hired a new gruop and one guy kept saying "I'm a computer
    professional" and he criticized the way I had set things up.

    I told him that I didn't set any of the network up, I just picked
    up the pieces over the years after other people had come and gone.
    And then when he was trying to get something set up in a
    neighboring city he asked what the IP of the router was. I said
    there was none, as it was a bridge. And he kept wanting to know
    about the IP address of the router. He had absolutely no clue
    of what a bridge was or hwo it worked. And his company wanted to
    junk the over $500US VPN routers/filters and put in some low-end PC
    oriented devices - at about $80 each - because they knew how to set
    them up.

    The upshot in the end was that there was a conference with
    all the principals of the company that needed the work, 3 people
    from the new company that wanted to provide the service, myself,
    and a stenographer to take down all sides of the converstation.
    The wannabe new provider wound up getting a $60,000 check canceled,
    and they were history. But all along they insisted they were
    computer professionals. But then I guess a successful bank robber
    could also be called a professionl :-)

    In many ways it's a pretty sad state of affairs. I cam to
    computers later - it was my 3rd career. First broadcasting - with
    a license to operate/repair and broadcast transmitter in the US.
    Second career was as a recording engineer. All that technical
    background led me into computers. And I still have sitting
    somewhere a memory board that I bought bare, and assembled with
    about 80 chips on it - 64 chips for 32K of memory - and the rest
    the glue chips that made it all work.

    Now it's just all SW to me - and I almost never leave home -
    working on systems everywhere - including one about 12,000 miles
    away. I've gotten to dislike the physical side even though I can
    handle it - but it goes against my lazy mature :-)

    Bill


    --
    Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com

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