New Internet Forum for Unix Support - Unix

This is a discussion on New Internet Forum for Unix Support - Unix ; Begin On 2006-04-13, Barry Margolin wrote: > Since there are now a handful of standard forum implementations, which > most of these use, could they really be considered to be "reinventing" > anything? It has become a standard paradigm, it's ...

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Thread: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

  1. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    Begin
    On 2006-04-13, Barry Margolin wrote:
    > Since there are now a handful of standard forum implementations, which
    > most of these use, could they really be considered to be "reinventing"
    > anything? It has become a standard paradigm, it's not new any more.


    Yes, it is reinvented usenet, badly. ``Standard'' (and notoriously
    leaky) implementations don't change that a bit.


    >> - Use of my favorite editor

    >
    > That's more a limitation of web browsers than the forums. GUI
    > newsreaders also don't let you use your favorite editor, so Usenet is
    > not much different unless you happen to use a newsreader that allows you
    > to specify a particular editor. And the only reason there are
    > newsreaders that offer this option is because Usenet predates widespread
    > GUI availability, and the traditional text-based newsreaders haven't
    > died out.


    Not quite. You're right in the sense that browsers might develop
    pluggable or configurable edit fields, but that is not the whole of
    the problem. One other consideration on this level is that there are a
    multitude of usenet readers, including GUI ones, but browsers are still
    few and far between. It doesn't help that browser applications have done
    far too much and even now that mozilla's been split up, firefox still
    is doing far too much. In part because too many unrelated things have
    been webified for buzzword compliance if no other reason.

    Teh intarweb is the killer app of the great unwashed, and it sure is
    good at killing things, including itself. It is here to stay because
    it has enough momentum that people will keep it alive at all costs,
    including reinventing things out of ignorance to existing solutions.


    >> - No possibility to just pipe an article through whatever I like

    >
    > Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
    > issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
    > inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
    > order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
    > messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.


    It isn't just the extracting, but also that the 'web inherently carries
    with it presentation information that just isn't present in USENET.
    That is, the separation between presentation and content is blurred if
    not lost. A consequence is that you can't just separate out ``browser
    vs. newsreader'' because newsreaders do things to the raw data that if
    you get it from a forum server is already packed in unrelated crap that
    browsers don't know how to separate out of sheer lack of metadata, if
    not lack of implementation logic.

    You're right that you could use XML to add the necessairy metadata
    again. The benefit would be that the user can then toss away the crap
    surrounding the messages and have a client do the entire presentation
    thing. That all still counts as reinventing, and a serious loss of
    efficiency to the actual communication to boot.

    Then again, reinventing square wheels is the hallmark of the largest
    consumer s/w company on the planet so surprised at the practice I'm not.


    --
    j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
    This message was originally posted on Usenet in plain text.
    Any other representation, additions, or changes do not have my
    consent and may be a violation of international copyright law.

  2. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    In article ,
    Michael Heiming wrote:

    > In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    > > In article ,
    > > Michael Heiming wrote:
    > >> - Missing spell checking

    >
    > > Most forums offer this, I think.

    >
    > Didn't saw a single that did until today.
    >
    > >> - No or pretty lame kill filling capability

    >
    > > True.

    >
    > >> - No possibility to just pipe an article through whatever I like

    >
    > > Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
    > > issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
    > > inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
    > > order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
    > > messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.

    >
    > Perhaps, still dunno a single GUI browser allowing this, which
    > was my point.


    Kind of hypocritical to complain about the lack of spell checking in
    forums, and then not use it in Usenet. AFAIK, there's no such word as
    "dunno".

    If I wanted to pipe a forum article, I would just cut and paste it into
    the other application. Even back in the days when I used trn I didn't
    make much use of its piping ability -- maybe once every month or two.

    You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
    pipe any web page.

    --
    Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

  3. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    > In article ,
    > Michael Heiming wrote:


    >> In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    >> > In article ,
    >> > Michael Heiming wrote:
    >> >> - Missing spell checking

    >>
    >> > Most forums offer this, I think.

    >>
    >> Didn't saw a single that did until today.
    >>
    >> >> - No or pretty lame kill filling capability

    >>
    >> > True.

    >>
    >> >> - No possibility to just pipe an article through whatever I like

    >>
    >> > Again, that's a browser vs newsreader problem, not a forum versus Usenet
    >> > issue. Although I admit that complex web pages, like web forums, may be
    >> > inherently harder to extract the message text from automatically in
    >> > order to pipe it. But if there are any standard XML tags for forum
    >> > messages, they could be used by browsers to do this.

    >>
    >> Perhaps, still dunno a single GUI browser allowing this, which
    >> was my point.


    > Kind of hypocritical to complain about the lack of spell checking in
    > forums, and then not use it in Usenet. AFAIK, there's no such word as
    > "dunno".


    Looks like I have configured the spell checker to accept the word
    "dunno", seems to me a common abbreviation of "do not know". ;-)

    > If I wanted to pipe a forum article, I would just cut and paste it into
    > the other application. Even back in the days when I used trn I didn't
    > make much use of its piping ability -- maybe once every month or two.


    > You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
    > pipe any web page.


    Really?
    lynx -dump http://www.heiming.de/ | grep Michael

    Seems to work for fine for me...

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 258: That's easy to fix, but I can't be bothered.

  4. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    In article ,
    Michael Heiming wrote:

    > In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    > > You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
    > > pipe any web page.

    >
    > Really?
    > lynx -dump http://www.heiming.de/ | grep Michael
    >
    > Seems to work for fine for me...


    OK, I guess I meant *most* web pages. Most of the web makes heavy use
    of frames and fancy layout, so getting at the specific URL that contains
    the stuff you want to pipe will be difficult.

    I'm sure you'll agree that your home page is quite atypical, so it's not
    much more than an academic refutation of my claim. The web would be
    great if you could pipe the output of a Google search, for instance, but
    good luck with that (you're probably better off piping the raw source to
    a tool that understands XML).

    --
    Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
    Arlington, MA
    *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
    *** PLEASE don't copy me on replies, I'll read them in the group ***

  5. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    > In article ,
    > Michael Heiming wrote:


    >> In comp.unix.admin Barry Margolin :
    >> > You might just as well complain about the entire web, since it's hard to
    >> > pipe any web page.

    >>
    >> Really?
    >> lynx -dump http://www.heiming.de/ | grep Michael
    >>
    >> Seems to work for fine for me...


    > OK, I guess I meant *most* web pages. Most of the web makes heavy use
    > of frames and fancy layout, so getting at the specific URL that contains
    > the stuff you want to pipe will be difficult.


    > I'm sure you'll agree that your home page is quite atypical, so it's not
    > much more than an academic refutation of my claim. The web would be
    > great if you could pipe the output of a Google search, for instance, but
    > good luck with that (you're probably better off piping the raw source to
    > a tool that understands XML).


    Unsure what you are talking about? According to you something
    like the following wouldn't be possible:

    wget -U MSIE6 -O - \
    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...2006\&safe=off \
    | sed -n -e "s/\(.*\)\(href=\"\/group\/\)\(.*\)\(\/browse.*\)/\3/p" -e "/*Results/s/<[^>]*b>//gp" |\
    sort | uniq -c | sed "1s/ ^\(.*\)\(Results.*\)/\2/" | sort -nr

    Sorry for over length line, URL is sad enough really 258 characters!

    --
    Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
    mail: echo zvpunry@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
    #bofh excuse 349: Stray Alpha Particles from memory packaging
    caused Hard Memory Error on Server.

  6. Re: New Internet Forum for Unix Support

    Dave (from the UK) wrote:
    > But what does it offer than a newsgroup does not?


    Maybe lack of flames?

    --
    Kind regards,
    Mogens V.


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