Intrepid Ibex upgrade: Heads up for KDE users

If you use KDE 3 (the kubuntu packages) and want to do a dist-upgrade, then
you will wind up with KDE 4...whether you like it or not.

I found this out the hard way last night when I decided to test the beta on
my laptop. I use KDE3 with compiz and my own wallpaper, and I like it.
After the upgrade, I had KDE4, no compiz, and their wallpaper. If I wanted
to do that, I'd have done a clean install.

From some (after the fact) reading on ubuntuforums (while my backup was
restoring me to 8.04 and KDE3), I find that KDE3 is OUT, no longer
compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of convoluted things
to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them pretty much mean losing your
existing config and starting from scratch.

I'm sure KDE4 has a lot going for it, but I don't care for it...it's too
Vista-like.

Shame on you, Kubuntu, for getting rid of support for a popular desktop
that is usable to push a new POS that mostly isn't (behavior which is, now
that I think of it, also very Vista-like.)

And (somewhat less)shame on Ubuntu for not making it REALLY obvious that
the upgrade was going to do this. I'm sure if I paged through the entire
(1400+ packages) list of things that were going to be installed-
uninstalled-upgraded I would have caught on, but most people don't do
that...they want it to 'just work'. So, like me, thay click the 'go'
button and see what happens. If they'd put in a little pop-up box that
said "Hey, WARNING! You're going to lose KDE3 completely. Are you SURE?"
I'd have hit 'cancel'.

I guess I'm going to stick with 8.04 for a while, on my laptop at least.

GH

On 2008-10-11, Gomer Hauler <not@home.right.now> wrote:[color=blue]
> If you use KDE 3 (the kubuntu packages) and want to do a dist-upgrade, then
> you will wind up with KDE 4...whether you like it or not.
>
> I found this out the hard way last night when I decided to test the beta on
> my laptop. I use KDE3 with compiz and my own wallpaper, and I like it.
> After the upgrade, I had KDE4, no compiz, and their wallpaper. If I wanted
> to do that, I'd have done a clean install.
>
> From some (after the fact) reading on ubuntuforums (while my backup was
> restoring me to 8.04 and KDE3), I find that KDE3 is OUT, no longer
> compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of convoluted things
> to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them pretty much mean losing your
> existing config and starting from scratch.
>
> I'm sure KDE4 has a lot going for it, but I don't care for it...it's too
> Vista-like.
>
> Shame on you, Kubuntu, for getting rid of support for a popular desktop
> that is usable to push a new POS that mostly isn't (behavior which is, now
> that I think of it, also very Vista-like.)
>
> And (somewhat less)shame on Ubuntu for not making it REALLY obvious that
> the upgrade was going to do this. I'm sure if I paged through the entire
> (1400+ packages) list of things that were going to be installed-
> uninstalled-upgraded I would have caught on, but most people don't do
> that...they want it to 'just work'. So, like me, thay click the 'go'
> button and see what happens. If they'd put in a little pop-up box that
> said "Hey, WARNING! You're going to lose KDE3 completely. Are you SURE?"
> I'd have hit 'cancel'.
>
> I guess I'm going to stick with 8.04 for a while, on my laptop at least.[/color]

Not sure, exactly, what you are complaining about. You upgraded to a
new distribution, and that means you get everything in that
distribution. KDE4 is the current Desktop Environment for Ibex, so it
upgraded you to KDE4. That's the expected behavior. It also probably
upgrades a lot of other packages, and doesn't ask your permission
first. If it did, the upgrade would be a royal pain in the ass...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Gomer Hauler schreef:[color=blue]
> If you use KDE 3 (the kubuntu packages) and want to do a dist-upgrade, then
> you will wind up with KDE 4...whether you like it or not.
>
> I found this out the hard way last night when I decided to test the beta on
> my laptop. I use KDE3 with compiz and my own wallpaper, and I like it.
> After the upgrade, I had KDE4, no compiz, and their wallpaper. If I wanted
> to do that, I'd have done a clean install.
>
> From some (after the fact) reading on ubuntuforums (while my backup was
> restoring me to 8.04 and KDE3), I find that KDE3 is OUT, no longer
> compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of convoluted things
> to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them pretty much mean losing your
> existing config and starting from scratch.
>
> I'm sure KDE4 has a lot going for it, but I don't care for it...it's too
> Vista-like.
>
> Shame on you, Kubuntu, for getting rid of support for a popular desktop
> that is usable to push a new POS that mostly isn't (behavior which is, now
> that I think of it, also very Vista-like.)
>
> And (somewhat less)shame on Ubuntu for not making it REALLY obvious that
> the upgrade was going to do this. I'm sure if I paged through the entire
> (1400+ packages) list of things that were going to be installed-
> uninstalled-upgraded I would have caught on, but most people don't do
> that...they want it to 'just work'. So, like me, thay click the 'go'
> button and see what happens. If they'd put in a little pop-up box that
> said "Hey, WARNING! You're going to lose KDE3 completely. Are you SURE?"
> I'd have hit 'cancel'.
>
> I guess I'm going to stick with 8.04 for a while, on my laptop at least.
>
> GH[/color]

Well first of all Hardy is a LTS, meaning you still have 2.5 years of
support to go. So you are able to use KDE3 2.5 more years.

Beside that, almost all distributions are dropping KDE3 by now. So it's
not Ubuntu specific.

Cheers

--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
|_|_|0| [url]http://ml2mst.googlepages.com[/url]
|0|0|0| [url]http://osgeex.blogspot.com[/url]

ml2mst schrieb:
[color=blue]
> Well first of all Hardy is a LTS, meaning you still have 2.5 years of
> support to go. So you are able to use KDE3 2.5 more years.[/color]


Well, Kubuntu Hardy is definitely NOT LTS.

KH

ml2mst <ml2mst@gmail.com> wrote in news:gcp9qd$sd4$1@news.albasani.net:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> longer compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of
>> convoluted things to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them pretty
>> much mean losing your existing config and starting from scratch.
>>[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Beside that, almost all distributions are dropping KDE3 by now. So
> it's not Ubuntu specific.
>[/color]


Just read in the openSuse newsgroup who experienced the same thing.

Karl-Heinz Künzel schreef:
[color=blue]
> ml2mst schrieb:
>[color=green]
>> Well first of all Hardy is a LTS, meaning you still have 2.5 years of
>> support to go. So you are able to use KDE3 2.5 more years.[/color]
>
>
> Well, Kubuntu Hardy is definitely NOT LTS.
>[/color]

Correct Karl-Heinz, my mistake :/

However will KDE3 not be supported on "general" (Gnome based) Ubuntu
8.04 LTS for the next 2.5 years?

IIRC KDE3 will still be further developed in 2008.

--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
|_|_|0| [url]http://ml2mst.googlepages.com[/url]
|0|0|0| [url]http://osgeex.blogspot.com[/url]

propman schreef:
[color=blue]
> ml2mst <ml2mst@gmail.com> wrote in news:gcp9qd$sd4$1@news.albasani.net:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> longer compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of
>>> convoluted things to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them pretty
>>> much mean losing your existing config and starting from scratch.
>>>[/color][/color]
>[color=green]
>> Beside that, almost all distributions are dropping KDE3 by now. So
>> it's not Ubuntu specific.
>>[/color]
>
>
> Just read in the openSuse newsgroup who experienced the same thing.[/color]

Why should I? SUSE is dead for me.

SuSE and later openSUSE was my favorite distribution since their 6.1
release.

Then SuSE GMBH got acquired by Novell and unfortunately Novell finally
sold out to the Evil Empire of Redmond.

This is exactly why I am using a home brew MONO-free spin off of Ubuntu.

I understand the OP's concerns, but hey, technology is about progress.
Let's move on.

IMHO KDE4 is great... Don't look back ;-)

Cheers

--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin
|_|_|0| [url]http://ml2mst.googlepages.com[/url]
|0|0|0| [url]http://osgeex.blogspot.com[/url]

In <gcq2p2$nj5$1@news.albasani.net> ml2mst:

[Snip...]
[color=blue]
> However will KDE3 not be supported on "general" (Gnome based) Ubuntu
> 8.04 LTS for the next 2.5 years?[/color]

I tried finding something about this, but it wasn't clear to me at all what
the future is for 3.x vs. 4.x as regards to KDE or Canonical support.

BTW, It surprised to me to find such questions raised almost a year ago:

KDE 4 won't be mature enough -- it will only have been in stable
release for about three months when Hardy Heron is released -- to be
included in a version earmarked as "Long Term Support."

More:

[url]http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1005960[/url]

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
I toss GoogleGroup posts from gitgo ([url]http://improve-usenet.org[/url]).

ml2mst <ml2mst@gmail.com> wrote in news:gcq429$oq8$1@news.albasani.net:
[color=blue]
> propman schreef:
>[color=green]
>> ml2mst <ml2mst@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:gcp9qd$sd4$1@news.albasani.net:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>> longer compatible. I'm reading where you can do all manner of
>>>> convoluted things to get KDE3 to run on Ibex, but all of them
>>>> pretty much mean losing your existing config and starting from
>>>> scratch.
>>>>[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Beside that, almost all distributions are dropping KDE3 by now. So
>>> it's not Ubuntu specific.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>
>> Just read in the openSuse newsgroup who experienced the same thing.[/color][/color]

[color=blue]
>
> Why should I? SUSE is dead for me.
>[/color]


I meant to type that last comment as " I just read about a participant
in the openSuse newsgroup who experienced the same thing".

Sorry for the confusion. :-)

Hi,
[color=blue]
> If you use KDE 3 (the kubuntu packages) and want to do a dist-upgrade,
> then you will wind up with KDE 4...whether you like it or not.[/color]

I think that you have better chances of getting KDE 3 back into intrepid
if instead of complaining here, you'd file a bug report on

[url]https://bugs.launchpad.net/[/url]

asking for KDE 3 to be reintroduced on the basis that KDE itself
declares KDE 4.1 suitable for early adopters only:

"While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early
adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not
implemented yet."

[url]http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.1/[/url]

claudio
--
Claudio Nieder, Talweg 6, CH-8610 Uster, Tel +4179 357 6743,
[url]www.claudio.ch[/url]

Claudio Nieder <private@claudio.ch> wrote in news:ae207$48f4ebdd$d9a2a02f
$15295@news.hispeed.ch:
[color=blue]
> I think that you have better chances of getting KDE 3 back into intrepid
> if instead of complaining here, you'd file a bug report on
>
> asking for KDE 3 to be reintroduced on the basis that KDE itself
> declares KDE 4.1 suitable for early adopters only:
>
> "While KDE 4.1 aims at being the first release suitable for early
> adopting users, some features you are used to in KDE 3.5 are not
> implemented yet."
>
> claudio[/color]

Well, in the first place, this isn't a bug, it's a decision made by the
developers. It's a decision I don't agree with, but it's their call, not
mine.

In the second place, the point of the post was to give users, who might
otherwise be suprised by this, a warning before they make the same mis-step
that I did.

Apparently that point was lost on you, despite it being in the subject
line.

GH

Gomer Hauler wrote:
[color=blue]
> If you use KDE 3 (the kubuntu packages) and want to do a dist-upgrade,
> then you will wind up with KDE 4...whether you like it or not.
>
>[/color]

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll definitely make sure to make a full backup and
reading every readme before doing a dist upgrade!

I just went back to Kubuntu after a dark year or two with Vista, and the
first couple of installations I made (one on a new work laptop and one on
my desktop) were from the Hardy KDE4 discs, because I'd tried out KDE4
earlier, and frankly, it looks soooo good :)

But, after a couple of days with it, I just ditched it an reinstalled with
the KDE3 discs. I don't know if it were just my not getting things right
(if so, sorry for dissing where dissing is not called for), but for one I
couldn't do the simplest customizations, and it seemed that apps that are
absolutely central in my love for KDE - (Kontact, Konqueror) - where only
provided in KDE3 versions? Is that true?

I'm not sure, but I couldn't figure it out, and I missed my KDE, so I went
for the KDE3 disc. OMG, KDE3 is so good :) It is just SO GOOD. I just had
to up the priority of Konqueror to get it back as default file manager, and
now everything is like I remember it, only 2 or 3 times better. No one
seems to sleep in the KDE developers world :) IIRC, last time I used KDE it
was also 3.5.something, and now it's 3.5.10, but it seems like it's 4 or 5,
every app just gets better and more advanced by the hour :)

Anyway, long rambling short, it's good to know that a dist up would remove
my KDE3, because I'd much rather run it in a vm for now, and adopt later
when all apps have transitioned and the quirks have been ironed out (like
Plasma still crashing frequently as we speak).

Cheers,
Daniel

Daniel Smedegaard Buus <daniel@danielsmedegaardbuus.dk> wrote in
news:48f79ba7$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk:
[color=blue]
> Thanks for the heads-up, I'll definitely make sure to make a full
> backup and reading every readme before doing a dist upgrade!
>[/color]
<snippage>[color=blue]
>
> Anyway, long rambling short, it's good to know that a dist up would
> remove my KDE3, because I'd much rather run it in a vm for now, and
> adopt later when all apps have transitioned and the quirks have been
> ironed out (like Plasma still crashing frequently as we speak).[/color]

I'm not as high on KDE as you are <G> but I do like it a lot, because
(and, oh, am I gonna get flamed for this) it a lot more like windows.

There is a lot NOT to like about windows (it's closed source,
proprietary,
virus-ridden, yada, yada, yada) but most of that has little to do with
the UI which is actually pretty good. At least, I like working with it.
(I'm talking 98 and XP, here. Vista makes me wanna puke)

So, when I'm trying to switch to a linux shop, I'm going to use the UI
that
is the most like what I'm comfortable with. Part of what there is to
like about linux is that you HAVE that freedom to make a personal choice.

One of the early things about KDE4 that turned me off of it was the
statement that they were migrating away from the idea of the desktop as a
folder. I LIKE the desktop being (as the late, great Carlin put it) 'a
place for my stuff'. If I use it often, I want it where I can get to it
quick.

If the KDE devs want to move away from that idea, it's their right,
they're doing the coding, not me. It is also MY right to 'vote with my
feet' and move on to another UI that is moving in a direction more
consistent with my desires.

Interestingly enough, as KDE is moving away from being 'windows-like', it
seems like gnome is moving in the direction of being MORE windows-like,
and I really do believe a lot of feedback from the Ubuntu community (and
others) is driving that. I've already upgraded one of my other machines
(that was already running gnome) to the new Ibex and I must say that,
overall, I'm pleased with a lot of the incremental changes that have been
made. However, my laptop is staying with Hardy, for now. I'm hoping
that the powers-that-be over at canonical decide to let upgraders keep
their KDE 3.5, but pending that I'm standing pat.

GH

Hi,
[color=blue]
> Well, in the first place, this isn't a bug, it's a decision made by the
> developers.[/color]

I would qualify a wrong decision as bug too. Of course with decisions
wrong or right depends on the point of view one has, e.g. here whether
having to support only KDE4 is more important then giving users the
choice to remain with KDE3 they know and offers all features they need.
[color=blue]
> Apparently that point was lost on you, despite it being in the subject[/color]
line.

Yes my mistake, I was more focused on your complaints that KDE3 has been
removed.

But maybe also because just a few weeks ago friend of mine working at an
Ubuntu booth rambled: "Why do people use KDE4 and then come here to
complain about features not working or not being there. It says in the
KDE 4.1 release notes, that it is not ready for the general public."

So I was very surprised seeing your posting about KDE3 removed from
Ubuntu 8.10 - I use Gnome currently - and had to think that given what my
friend said a bug report would be for you the right thing to do.

claudio
--
Claudio Nieder, Talweg 6, CH-8610 Uster, Tel +4179 357 6743,
[url]www.claudio.ch[/url]

Claudio Nieder <private@claudio.ch> wrote in
news:a4b82$48f8f234$d9a2a02f$9339@news.hispeed.ch:
[color=blue]
> So I was very surprised seeing your posting about KDE3 removed from
> Ubuntu 8.10 - I use Gnome currently - and had to think that given what
> my friend said a bug report would be for you the right thing to do.[/color]

Actually, I'm thinking a posting on Brainstorm.ubuntu.com might be a better
way to address the issue.

GH