"Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
news:8y3bn4d9qqy2.1qe2lgsxb4jyu$.dlg@40tude.net:

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>
>> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> OK, now I know why we needed yet another audio system:
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Idiot.
>
> No he's not an idiot Linonut.
> You know full well that Audio under linux is a clusterfsck.
> Everyone in the Linux community knows this and the user knows it as
> soon as he boots his system for the first time and gets no audio.
> Then the person goes crazy trying to figure out why.
> Usually it's the volume slider too low.

So what you are saying here, in other words, is the majority of the time,
the audio works just fine.

> Other times it's the various systems fighting with each other.
>
> Sorry, but that chart accurately decribes the mess that audio under
> Linux has become.
>
> And true to form, just like with Linux in general, you boobs don't fix
> what you already have, like ALSA for example, no that would be too
> easy.

I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked properly
from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen, multi-media
programs...everything I've tried that has sound.

Oh yeah, I forgot, you didn't believe me when I said all of that worked
out-of-the-box.

So I guess the audio subsystem always 'just works' in Windows ?

I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
figure out.

However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.

i

On 2008-07-23, Ignoramus12000 wrote:
> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
> figure out.
>
> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.

I am not so sure that multi-user sound is such a good thing.

OTOH, I can get multiple streams of audio working just fine with
pre-pulseaudio distros. The result is nothing that you would ever
listen to but you can certainly achieve the desired result.

--
Negligence will never equal intent, no matter how you
attempt to distort reality to do so. This is what separates |||
the real butchers from average Joes (or Fritzes) caught up in / | \
events not in their control.

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In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH

wrote
on Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:40:14 -0500
:
> On 2008-07-23, Ignoramus12000 wrote:
>> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
>> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
>> figure out.
>>
>> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
>> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.
>
> I am not so sure that multi-user sound is such a good thing.

I have no idea how one would even set that up on a
standard desktop. Ideally, admittedly, sound would act
much like X Windows drawing instructions do: the client
would send requests to a library that would convert them
into packets, sending them to the user's box and playing
the sounds there somehow.

However, at the time X Windows was initially designed,
the most sophisticated expectation was apparently a
workstation beep.

(This is not to say programs can't open /dev/dsp directly;
many do. Of course that plays sounds on the server,
and can't be remoted without a lot of work.)

>
> OTOH, I can get multiple streams of audio working just fine with
> pre-pulseaudio distros. The result is nothing that you would ever
> listen to but you can certainly achieve the desired result.
>

Maybe if there are multiple audio cards in the machine. ;-)
The result would appear, at least to me, to look like some
sort of weird octopus (N-opus?) grabbing everyone's ears.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Been there, done that, didn't get the T-shirt.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On 2008-07-23, JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On 2008-07-23, Ignoramus12000 wrote:
>> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
>> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
>> figure out.
>>
>> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
>> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.
>
> I am not so sure that multi-user sound is such a good thing.

It definitely is. Or, more exactly, the fact that I have a stopped
yourube video in my browser, on my locked screen, does not prevent my
son from playing his game under his account.

Same applies to me watching other movies while youtube video is
paused, etc.

> OTOH, I can get multiple streams of audio working just fine with
> pre-pulseaudio distros. The result is nothing that you would ever
> listen to but you can certainly achieve the desired result.

I would not dismiss it so easily. It is a great feature if used
properly.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On 2008-07-23, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, JEDIDIAH
>
> wrote
> on Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:40:14 -0500
>:
>> On 2008-07-23, Ignoramus12000 wrote:
>>> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
>>> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
>>> figure out.
>>>
>>> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
>>> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.
>>
>> I am not so sure that multi-user sound is such a good thing.

[deletia]

>> OTOH, I can get multiple streams of audio working just fine with
>> pre-pulseaudio distros. The result is nothing that you would ever
>> listen to but you can certainly achieve the desired result.
>>
>
> Maybe if there are multiple audio cards in the machine. ;-)
> The result would appear, at least to me, to look like some
> sort of weird octopus (N-opus?) grabbing everyone's ears.

Well... up to a certain point, I can see the point of mixing.

Having a main user channel and a system channel seems to have
some utility. Once you get past that you do end up with
something that sounds like much.

I am not convinced that yet another sound system is required
in order to enable sharing of the soundcard (by multiple apps
or users).

--
Negligence will never equal intent, no matter how you
attempt to distort reality to do so. This is what separates |||
the real butchers from average Joes (or Fritzes) caught up in / | \
events not in their control.

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On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:09:42 +0000 (UTC), DanS wrote:

> "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
> news:8y3bn4d9qqy2.1qe2lgsxb4jyu$.dlg@40tude.net:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>
>>> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>
>>>> OK, now I know why we needed yet another audio system:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Idiot.
>>
>> No he's not an idiot Linonut.
>> You know full well that Audio under linux is a clusterfsck.
>> Everyone in the Linux community knows this and the user knows it as
>> soon as he boots his system for the first time and gets no audio.
>> Then the person goes crazy trying to figure out why.
>> Usually it's the volume slider too low.
>
> So what you are saying here, in other words, is the majority of the time,
> the audio works just fine.

It depends.
Multiple sounds at once are a problem depending upon the sound system used.
Plugins in browsers are another one.

>> Other times it's the various systems fighting with each other.
>>
>> Sorry, but that chart accurately decribes the mess that audio under
>> Linux has become.
>>
>> And true to form, just like with Linux in general, you boobs don't fix
>> what you already have, like ALSA for example, no that would be too
>> easy.
>
> I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked properly
> from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen, multi-media
> programs...everything I've tried that has sound.

Oh course not.....
You are the exception by far...
Most people DO have problems.


> Oh yeah, I forgot, you didn't believe me when I said all of that worked
> out-of-the-box.

Of course it did....

> So I guess the audio subsystem always 'just works' in Windows ?

Yep..
It just works....


--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:54:29 -0500, Ignoramus12000 wrote:

> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
> figure out.
>
> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.
>
> i

The latency must be insanely ridiculous in that case if you are doing any
kind of professional type recording.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

"Moshe Goldfarb." writes:

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:09:42 +0000 (UTC), DanS wrote:
>
>> "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
>> news:8y3bn4d9qqy2.1qe2lgsxb4jyu$.dlg@40tude.net:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>>
>>>> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>
>>>>> OK, now I know why we needed yet another audio system:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Idiot.
>>>
>>> No he's not an idiot Linonut.
>>> You know full well that Audio under linux is a clusterfsck.
>>> Everyone in the Linux community knows this and the user knows it as
>>> soon as he boots his system for the first time and gets no audio.
>>> Then the person goes crazy trying to figure out why.
>>> Usually it's the volume slider too low.
>>
>> So what you are saying here, in other words, is the majority of the time,
>> the audio works just fine.
>
> It depends.
> Multiple sounds at once are a problem depending upon the sound system used.
> Plugins in browsers are another one.
>
>>> Other times it's the various systems fighting with each other.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but that chart accurately decribes the mess that audio under
>>> Linux has become.
>>>
>>> And true to form, just like with Linux in general, you boobs don't fix
>>> what you already have, like ALSA for example, no that would be too
>>> easy.
>>
>> I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked properly
>> from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen, multi-media
>> programs...everything I've tried that has sound.
>
> Oh course not.....
> You are the exception by far...
> Most people DO have problems.

As usual it meets his "needs". I wonder if realplayer works when hes
using mplayer etc etc? And if it DOES "all just work" maybe someone
should tell the pulseaudio guys.

>
>
>> Oh yeah, I forgot, you didn't believe me when I said all of that worked
>> out-of-the-box.
>
> Of course it did....
>
>> So I guess the audio subsystem always 'just works' in Windows ?
>
> Yep..
> It just works....

It generally does. But lets face it, it has a far bigger install base so
problems are ironed out quicker.


--
"Yes, I am a nymshifting troll. I used to be called Rafael, but since the operation I prefer to be called Robin T Cox."
High Plains Shifter, COLA.

On 2008-07-26, Hadron wrote:
> "Moshe Goldfarb." writes:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:09:42 +0000 (UTC), DanS wrote:
>>
>>> "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
>>> news:8y3bn4d9qqy2.1qe2lgsxb4jyu$.dlg@40tude.net:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, now I know why we needed yet another audio system:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
[deletia]
>>> I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked properly
>>> from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen, multi-media
>>> programs...everything I've tried that has sound.
>>
>> Oh course not.....
>> You are the exception by far...
>> Most people DO have problems.

This is a big load of bull****.

It's simply wishful thinking. Perhaps just FUD meant as such.

The claim of "most" is probably not even supportable at all.

>
> As usual it meets his "needs". I wonder if realplayer works when hes
> using mplayer etc etc? And if it DOES "all just work" maybe someone
> should tell the pulseaudio guys.

I think the pulseaudio guys already freely admitted that they
have more demanding requirements than just "mixing a few streams
together for basic desktop use".

[deletia]

What never was established is why the Ubuntu guys thinks it's a good
thing to upset the applecart over.

--
Sure, I could use iTunes even under Linux. However, I have |||
better things to do with my time than deal with how iTunes doesn't / | \
want to play nicely with everyone else's data (namely mine). I'd
rather create a DVD using those Linux apps we're told don't exist.

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On 2008-07-26, Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:54:29 -0500, Ignoramus12000 wrote:
>
>> I spent a while fighting PulseAudio because it was outputting to spdif
>> and I was using analog output. (and got no output). Took me a while to
>> figure out.
>>
>> However, my machine is multiuser and with pulseaudio, I can get many
>> users use sound effectively. It is a good thing.
>
> The latency must be insanely ridiculous in that case if you are doing any
> kind of professional type recording.
>

I am not doing any such thing. So I would not know. As of now, after
fixing the spdif issue, I have zero problems with pulse, many apps
using sound, many users using sound, etc.

Since our network is gigabit (most of it, anyway) we could remotely
watch videos with sound streamed, though I cannot see why we would
need such a thing. Currently we run mplayer locally, getting movies
from a network share.

By the way, at work we are now replacing windows servers with Linux
servers, and due to performance improvements we replace about 5-8
Windows servers with one Linux server. Also, in addition, we are
improving reliability, introducing real time replication, hot standby
backups, etc.

i
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 22:18:33 +0200, Hadron wrote:

> "Moshe Goldfarb." writes:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:09:42 +0000 (UTC), DanS wrote:
>>
>>> "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
>>> news:8y3bn4d9qqy2.1qe2lgsxb4jyu$.dlg@40tude.net:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:43:06 -0400, Linonut wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, now I know why we needed yet another audio system:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> No he's not an idiot Linonut.
>>>> You know full well that Audio under linux is a clusterfsck.
>>>> Everyone in the Linux community knows this and the user knows it as
>>>> soon as he boots his system for the first time and gets no audio.
>>>> Then the person goes crazy trying to figure out why.
>>>> Usually it's the volume slider too low.
>>>
>>> So what you are saying here, in other words, is the majority of the time,
>>> the audio works just fine.
>>
>> It depends.
>> Multiple sounds at once are a problem depending upon the sound system used.
>> Plugins in browsers are another one.
>>
>>>> Other times it's the various systems fighting with each other.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but that chart accurately decribes the mess that audio under
>>>> Linux has become.
>>>>
>>>> And true to form, just like with Linux in general, you boobs don't fix
>>>> what you already have, like ALSA for example, no that would be too
>>>> easy.
>>>
>>> I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked properly
>>> from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen, multi-media
>>> programs...everything I've tried that has sound.
>>
>> Oh course not.....
>> You are the exception by far...
>> Most people DO have problems.
>
> As usual it meets his "needs". I wonder if realplayer works when hes
> using mplayer etc etc? And if it DOES "all just work" maybe someone
> should tell the pulseaudio guys.
>
>>
>>
>>> Oh yeah, I forgot, you didn't believe me when I said all of that worked
>>> out-of-the-box.
>>
>> Of course it did....
>>
>>> So I guess the audio subsystem always 'just works' in Windows ?
>>
>> Yep..
>> It just works....
>
> It generally does. But lets face it, it has a far bigger install base so
> problems are ironed out quicker.

I've seen professional audio engineers take Linux systems and literally
thow them in the trash because they couldn;t get Jack/Alsa/Ardour/etc to
work properly with low latency and with reliability.

It's a total mess and the solution is NOT to keep releasing the sound
system of the week.

The solution is to make ALSA the ONLY, ONE AND ONLY, sound system and if
your application does not work with ALSA, too bad...re-write it so it does.

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

"Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in
news:1kqv8mm5bet81$.1vhosp1tpounk$.dlg@40tude.net:

>> I've had no problems at all with ALSA under Ubuntu. It worked
>> properly from day one, and works fine with Jack, Ardour, Hydrogen,
>> multi-media programs...everything I've tried that has sound.
>
> Oh course not.....
> You are the exception by far...
> Most people DO have problems.
>> Oh yeah, I forgot, you didn't believe me when I said all of that
>> worked out-of-the-box.
>
> Of course it did....

Yep. It did.

>
>> So I guess the audio subsystem always 'just works' in Windows ?
>
> Yep..
> It just works....

Then all these people having problems are imagining it ?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c....mozilla%3Aen-
US%3Aofficial&hs=2vQ&q=%2Bvista+%22no+sound%22+OR+%22no+audio%22
&btnG=Search