Merrick Baldelli wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
> wrote:
>
>>> I guess that could be expanded to say "349 different types of
>>> vegetables" so select what you want, then compare heads of lettuce (i.e.
>>> different flavors or releases of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, ....) and
>>> use what you want to use.
>>>
>>> Having only one from which to choose is Micr0$lut's forced mentality
>>> isn't it?
>> Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
>> your pic, same crap different name.
>
> Surprisingly (and luckily) you forgot ME. And don't forget
> the flavors of 9x (OSR2 and SE), and NT that came in 3.51, 4.0 and
> 2000.
>
>> Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
>> decide on one ?
>
> No, but as a creature that likes following the path of least
> resistance, I would like to have chosen a flavor of Linux that would
> take the least amount of work to get up and running with all the
> hardware I've got in this box, have them all play nicely with each
> other and pretty much settle down to doing what I'm most familiar with
> in Windows.
> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
> I'm most familiar with Windows.
>



You just made your own point. If you want Windows stay with it. You
won't get Windows in Linux. Same ease of use definitely, but not windows.
Its like eating frog legs and then saying--- but it doesn't taste like
chicken.
caver1

* Confused Donkey peremptorily fired off this memo:

> Plus, of course, there is better support for windows (this is going to
> start an argument) in the sense that you have a lot of pc repairers, PC
> world, self employed etc. If you take your linux laptop to a shop, they
> dont know anything, and they assume "Your using linux and your asking us
> for help ? If your using linux you should know what your doing, shouldnt
> you ?"
>
> All you have for linux is (Great) forums etc, which is "Try this it worked
> for me.". You get what you pay for.

That's all the general consumer has for Windows, too. That, and their
friendly Linux-using neighbor.

--
Love is staying up all night with a sick child, or a healthy adult.

* Merrick Baldelli peremptorily fired off this memo:

> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>
>>Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
>>your pic, same crap different name.
>
> Surprisingly (and luckily) you forgot ME. And don't forget
> the flavors of 9x (OSR2 and SE), and NT that came in 3.51, 4.0 and
> 2000.

He also for Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista
Ultimate, and the Vista-downgrade-to-XP choice.

>>Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
>>decide on one ?
>
> No, but as a creature that likes following the path of least
> resistance, I would like to have chosen a flavor of Linux that would
> take the least amount of work to get up and running with all the
> hardware I've got in this box, have them all play nicely with each
> other and pretty much settle down to doing what I'm most familiar with
> in Windows.
> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
> I'm most familiar with Windows.

Why bother? Try a new paradigm and see if you like it.

For example, try fluxbox. It may be too lean for you, but try it. No
start button, no icons (though there is an icon menu). You can add all
that stuff, if you want to.

Anyway, it took me about a month to get comfortable with Linux, even
though it just felt like /fun/ right away.

--
Whatever it is, I fear Greeks even when they bring gifts.
-- Publius Vergilius Maro (Virgil)

On 2008-08-05, Confused Donkey hit the keyboard and wrote:
>
>>
>> I guess that could be expanded to say "349 different types of
>> vegetables" so select what you want, then compare heads of lettuce (i.e.
>> different flavors or releases of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, ....) and
>> use what you want to use.
>>
>> Having only one from which to choose is Micr0$lut's forced mentality
>> isn't it?
>
> Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
> your pic, same crap different name.
>
> Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
> decide on one ?

YES yes YES! I did when I came to GNU/Linux.

Suse, Caldera, RedHat, Slackware, "Progeny Debian" Debian proper,
Mandrake (Mandriva). They were tested in two years of time. Used
Caldera and Mandrake a lot first, tried Slackware (from it I got the
idea to install "Linux from Scratch) but it was just too much work
for me to set up. "Progeny Debian" (all what's left of this
installation is its "wallpaper") got me on the Debian bandwagon.

After I screwed up my working installation I decided on Ubuntu
(Studio -version).

Downloaded most of the distributions I tried (broad-band) and the
first Suse came from a magazine CD-ROM, Progeny too was a supplement
to a magazine.

Of course hundreds of distributions to choose from based on *rpm*
*deb* and what have you, but people can still ask and get some help
in trying to select the OS. With Live-CD's this shouldn't be such a
big problem.




Dragomir Kollaric
--
This signature is licensed under the GPL and may be
freely distributed as long as a copy of the GPL is included... :-)

On 2008-08-05, Confused Donkey hit the keyboard and wrote:



> Plus, of course, there is better support for windows (this
> is going to start an argument) in the sense that you have
> a lot of pc repairers, PC world, self employed etc. If you
> take your linux laptop to a shop, they dont know anything,
> and they assume "Your using linux and your asking us for
> help ? If your using linux you should know what your
> doing, shouldnt you ?"

The *only* reason I ever brought a PC to a shop is for *failing*
Hardware and it makes little difference which OS was installed.


My old Lap-top never saw the shop again after I bought it,
and it got a new life when I put Slackware on it, because I
couldn't get from the OEM 24 floppies I'd need to but win
3.11 back on it.


>
> All you have for linux is (Great) forums etc, which is
> "Try this it worked for me.". You get what you pay for.

I come from Debian (settled on it after testing a few
others) and I find the Documentation to be good, man I can
imagine your rants and complaints, had you started to use
GNU/Linux at the same time as I did. BTW somehow I find the
"screen-name" you chose to be fitting indeed.



Dragomir Kollaric
--
This signature is licensed under the GPL and may be
freely distributed as long as a copy of the GPL is included... :-)

Linonut wrote:
> * Merrick Baldelli peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>>
>>> Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
>>> your pic, same crap different name.
>>>
>> Surprisingly (and luckily) you forgot ME. And don't forget
>> the flavors of 9x (OSR2 and SE), and NT that came in 3.51, 4.0 and
>> 2000.
>>
>
> He also for Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista
> Ultimate, and the Vista-downgrade-to-XP choice.


The whole point of using "Windows" as the example was a computer
purchaser used to be bound to that OS -- in all of its malforms -- and
had no choice.

Windows is all Windows, built on DOS, modified, hacked, etc. Still
Windows. Only the era changed. The NT filesystem was added, and usable
DOS removed, but Windows is still Windows.

Will Microsoft's Midori be a new distro, or just another new edition of
Windows? One thing is for sure, it will have "Microsoft" in the name,
and likely all of the other historical evil associated with Micr0$lut.
How many times does someone need to put their hand on a hot stove before
they learn to avoid it?

At least with a Unix-like OS you have:

Unix Sys-V (Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, etc.)
BSD (Free, Net, Open, SunOS, etc.)
Darwin (Mac OS-X, a trickled-down mix from Unix, BSD, Mach, NEXTSTEP,
and containing some Classic bloatability)
GNU/Linux -- Divide this anyway you want, maybe starting by listing the
DEB-based distros separately from the RPM-based distros, then each
distro (Debian, Ubuntu, ...), then each flavor (Ubuntu, Kubuntu,
Xubuntu, ...), then each architecture (i386, AMD64, PPC, ...), then each
edition (LiveCD, Alternate, Server), then each release version (7.10,
8.04, ...), etc.

I presume some will say that all of those are built on Unix too, but if
you go look at a timeline of Unix, it is huge and complicated, compared
to the basic straight line of Windows evolution. Describing all of the
Windows would seem to be simply different editions with several release
versions of the same-o.

Windows would fall all within one distro, which would likely be
dystrophy. ;-)

--
John

No Microsoft, Apple, AT&T, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

"John F. Morse" wrote in message
news:g7cgtn$qib$1@optima7.xanadu-bbs.net...
> Linonut wrote:
>> * Merrick Baldelli peremptorily fired off this memo:
>>
>>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>>>
>>>> Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
>>>> your pic, same crap different name.
>>>>
>>> Surprisingly (and luckily) you forgot ME. And don't forget
>>> the flavors of 9x (OSR2 and SE), and NT that came in 3.51, 4.0 and
>>> 2000.
>>
>> He also for Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista
>> Ultimate, and the Vista-downgrade-to-XP choice.
>
>
> The whole point of using "Windows" as the example was a computer purchaser
> used to be bound to that OS -- in all of its malforms -- and had no
> choice.
>
> Windows is all Windows, built on DOS, modified, hacked, etc. Still
> Windows. Only the era changed. The NT filesystem was added, and usable DOS
> removed, but Windows is still Windows.
>
> Will Microsoft's Midori be a new distro, or just another new edition of
> Windows? One thing is for sure, it will have "Microsoft" in the name, and
> likely all of the other historical evil associated with Micr0$lut. How
> many times does someone need to put their hand on a hot stove before they
> learn to avoid it?
>
> At least with a Unix-like OS you have:
>
> Unix Sys-V (Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, etc.)
> BSD (Free, Net, Open, SunOS, etc.)
> Darwin (Mac OS-X, a trickled-down mix from Unix, BSD, Mach, NEXTSTEP, and
> containing some Classic bloatability)
> GNU/Linux -- Divide this anyway you want, maybe starting by listing the
> DEB-based distros separately from the RPM-based distros, then each distro
> (Debian, Ubuntu, ...), then each flavor (Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, ...),
> then each architecture (i386, AMD64, PPC, ...), then each edition (LiveCD,
> Alternate, Server), then each release version (7.10, 8.04, ...), etc.
>
> I presume some will say that all of those are built on Unix too, but if
> you go look at a timeline of Unix, it is huge and complicated, compared to
> the basic straight line of Windows evolution. Describing all of the
> Windows would seem to be simply different editions with several release
> versions of the same-o.
>
> Windows would fall all within one distro, which would likely be dystrophy.
> ;-)
>
> --
> John
What a lying piece of **** moron

"Man-wai Chang ToDie (33.6k)" wrote in message
news:4860c4bd$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
>
> ... and then offer Emerge as an alternative to Apt?
>
> --
> @~@ Might, Courage, Vision, SINCERITY.
> / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and Farce be with you!
> /( _ )\ (Xubuntu 8.04) Linux 2.6.25.8
> ^ ^ 17:55:01 up 7:41 1 user load average: 1.00 1.03 1.03
> ? ? (CSSA):
> http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...ub_addressesa/

What if you weren't such a f*cking moron

On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:30:41 -0700, Tejas Kokje wrote:

> Man-wai Chang ToDie (33.6k) wrote:
>>
>> ... and then offer Emerge as an alternative to Apt?
>>
>
> Why ? Target audience for Ubuntu and Gentoo are different.


Yep, Ubuntu is more newbie distrom whereas Gentoo is more upper
intimediate to advanced.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:43:17 -0400, Linonut
wrote:

>* Merrick Baldelli peremptorily fired off this memo:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>>
>>>Actually you have Win 1.x, Win 3.x, win 95, 98, NT, XP, Vista etc, take
>>>your pic, same crap different name.
>>
>> Surprisingly (and luckily) you forgot ME. And don't forget
>> the flavors of 9x (OSR2 and SE), and NT that came in 3.51, 4.0 and
>> 2000.
>
>He also for Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, Vista
>Ultimate, and the Vista-downgrade-to-XP choice.

*nods* True.

>>>Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
>>>decide on one ?
>>
>> No, but as a creature that likes following the path of least
>> resistance, I would like to have chosen a flavor of Linux that would
>> take the least amount of work to get up and running with all the
>> hardware I've got in this box, have them all play nicely with each
>> other and pretty much settle down to doing what I'm most familiar with
>> in Windows.
>> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
>> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
>> I'm most familiar with Windows.
>
>Why bother? Try a new paradigm and see if you like it.

I've stuck to Canonical's products at the moment. Liked
Ubuntu (Gnome) and have been sticking with it so far. Tried Xubuntu
and was like, "whah?" Tried Kubuntu and while it was closer to
Windows, I felt like slitting my wrists on the known issue of the
ADD/Remove Stalling/being extremely slow when mass adding programs.

>For example, try fluxbox. It may be too lean for you, but try it. No
>start button, no icons (though there is an icon menu). You can add all
>that stuff, if you want to.

Thanks for the recommendation. I might keep that one in mind
when I get all my problems with Ubuntu fixed and running properly and
I'm ready to move to something more intermediate or advanced.

>Anyway, it took me about a month to get comfortable with Linux, even
>though it just felt like /fun/ right away.

I've been and on and off Ubuntu user since about July of last
year. Stories to tell there, believe me.

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:27:17 -0400, caver1
wrote:

>Merrick Baldelli wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> I guess that could be expanded to say "349 different types of
>>>> vegetables" so select what you want, then compare heads of lettuce (i.e.
>>>> different flavors or releases of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, ....) and
>>>> use what you want to use.
>>
>>> Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
>>> decide on one ?
>>
>> No, but as a creature that likes following the path of least
>> resistance, I would like to have chosen a flavor of Linux that would
>> take the least amount of work to get up and running with all the
>> hardware I've got in this box, have them all play nicely with each
>> other and pretty much settle down to doing what I'm most familiar with
>> in Windows.
>> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
>> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
>> I'm most familiar with Windows.
>
>You just made your own point. If you want Windows stay with it. You
>won't get Windows in Linux. Same ease of use definitely, but not windows.
>Its like eating frog legs and then saying--- but it doesn't taste like
>chicken.

If you're going to play armchair debater, then you're right
that I make my own point on the surface; but there's almost always
more than the surface, isn't there?

There are several reasons why I've been considering getting my
feet wet when it comes to Linux. First is that there's a Tier II and
III job that requires a working knowledge of Linux that I'm aiming
for. The other is that I haven't been happy with the state of the
business with Microsoft and Windows since the release of Windows
Vista.
Then, I could swap out to Mac, but my experience with
Mac-o-philes has been for lack of a better word: horrifying. They
make the Zealots of the Holy Wars look sane by comparison. Not to
mention that I'm not in the mood to E-Bay all my PC equipment and then
spend upward to 40% up-charge for purchasing Mac equipment.

Thanks no.

My equipment is currently working, I like XP for the moment,
don't want Vista at all, and I'm not banking on the next version of
Windows being the replacement to XP. So what's left once XP's reaches
it's twilight in 2010 - 2012?

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity

On 2008-08-08, Merrick Baldelli hit the keyboard and wrote:



> I've stuck to Canonical's products at the moment. Liked
> Ubuntu (Gnome) and have been sticking with it so far.
> Tried Xubuntu and was like, "whah?"

Yeah the *default* setting are rather *boring*. :-)

I'm a ICE-WM and XFCE user for a few years now, and even
though I could easily run Gnome, I stick with XFCE. (used in
my old AMD K-6 with about 500MB or so.)

Just a different "wall-paper" can make a difference:
"http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh272/D_kollaric/XFCE-01.jpg"

Also the choice cycle trough many worspaces is a feature I
like, and it's because I'm used to the short-cuts is another
reason why I don't want to change.

This is what I like "choice" and I'm sure this will get even
more people to switch over to Gnu/Linux.... :-)





Dragomir Kollaric
--
This signature is licensed under the GPL and may be
freely distributed as long as a copy of the GPL is included... :-)

Merrick Baldelli wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 08:27:17 -0400, caver1
> wrote:
>
>> Merrick Baldelli wrote:
>>> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:50:46 +0100, Confused Donkey
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I guess that could be expanded to say "349 different types of
>>>>> vegetables" so select what you want, then compare heads of lettuce (i.e.
>>>>> different flavors or releases of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, ....) and
>>>>> use what you want to use.
>>>> Plus is a newbie REALLY going to try out X number of distro's before they
>>>> decide on one ?
>>> No, but as a creature that likes following the path of least
>>> resistance, I would like to have chosen a flavor of Linux that would
>>> take the least amount of work to get up and running with all the
>>> hardware I've got in this box, have them all play nicely with each
>>> other and pretty much settle down to doing what I'm most familiar with
>>> in Windows.
>>> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
>>> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
>>> I'm most familiar with Windows.
>> You just made your own point. If you want Windows stay with it. You
>> won't get Windows in Linux. Same ease of use definitely, but not windows.
>> Its like eating frog legs and then saying--- but it doesn't taste like
>> chicken.
>
> If you're going to play armchair debater, then you're right
> that I make my own point on the surface; but there's almost always
> more than the surface, isn't there?
>
> There are several reasons why I've been considering getting my
> feet wet when it comes to Linux. First is that there's a Tier II and
> III job that requires a working knowledge of Linux that I'm aiming
> for. The other is that I haven't been happy with the state of the
> business with Microsoft and Windows since the release of Windows
> Vista.
> Then, I could swap out to Mac, but my experience with
> Mac-o-philes has been for lack of a better word: horrifying. They
> make the Zealots of the Holy Wars look sane by comparison. Not to
> mention that I'm not in the mood to E-Bay all my PC equipment and then
> spend upward to 40% up-charge for purchasing Mac equipment.
>
> Thanks no.
>
> My equipment is currently working, I like XP for the moment,
> don't want Vista at all, and I'm not banking on the next version of
> Windows being the replacement to XP. So what's left once XP's reaches
> it's twilight in 2010 - 2012?
>


I agree with you about moving away from MS. But if you want a
replacement for MS that is MS like then you might as well give up
because it ain't going to happen.
If you are willing to do research for what you need then you will get
somewhere with Linux.
Everyone's needs are different. I personally have had no problems with
Ubuntu. Has always just worked for me. From Dapper now on to Hardy.
If you remember back things just didn't work in windows either it was a
learning process.
It just gets my dander up when people complain about Linux doesn't work
just like windows.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
You will find good help from Linux users.
caver1

* Merrick Baldelli wrote in alt.os.linux.ubuntu:

> So far, Ubuntu makes some of the grade, but it and I still
> have a long way to get to getting the Linux partition running the way
> I'm most familiar with Windows.

What is missing in Ubuntu for you? I am sure you will get plenty of things
to tryout if you post your needs.

--
David

On 2008-08-08, Dragomir Kollaric wrote:
>
> This is what I like "choice" and I'm sure this will get even
> more people to switch over to Gnu/Linux.... :-)

Sadly, I think all the choice is what keeps more people from using
linux. The masses are not used to thinking for themselves anymore,
and would prefer others to make simple choices for them. So, most
people LIKE that Bill Gates is ramming **** down thier throat. It
just makes it easier...


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Joe wrote:

> On 2008-08-08, Dragomir Kollaric wrote:
>>
>> This is what I like "choice" and I'm sure this will get even
>> more people to switch over to Gnu/Linux.... :-)
>
> Sadly, I think all the choice is what keeps more people from using
> linux.

Just like it keeps them from buying cars.



Florian
--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
** Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature, please! **
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:22:35 -0400, caver1
wrote:

>I agree with you about moving away from MS. But if you want a
>replacement for MS that is MS like then you might as well give up
>because it ain't going to happen.

Well yeah, I don't expect it to be exactly like Windows if it
were we'd be seeing litigation up one side and down the other against
Linux from Windows, the same as years and years ago when Mac went
after Microsoft (shows ya' how old I am, huh? *grins*).

>If you are willing to do research for what you need then you will get
>somewhere with Linux.

So far I am, but I have to admit that getting used to knowing
how to ask the correct questions in forums, and hitting the search
engines and getting the answers I'm needing has been the most
frustrating. Asking about Ubuntu+SAA7130 ends up pulling information
on Gentoo, Puppy or even Red Hat. Hell, I've even pulled help on
Mandrake/Mandriva Distros for that card.
That to men says, "too many flavors..." and too many people
making comparisons when they're supporting a distro and the problem
someone is looking for help with something not working.

>Everyone's needs are different. I personally have had no problems with
>Ubuntu. Has always just worked for me. From Dapper now on to Hardy.

Heh, I changed several pieces of hardware between Gutsy and
Hardy. Namely Video Card, DVD drive, Soundcard, added a TV Card, and
Webcam. Canonical changed sound controls from ALSA to Pulse (or
whatever it's called), and that changes the dynamics of the problems
experiences..
The good side was that the video card was a breeze, and I like
the new controls for it in Hardy that didn't rely on Envy, and the
ability to change the conf file made me really happy.
The soundcard... heh, well you're getting a feel of my pain.
>If you remember back things just didn't work in windows either it was a
>learning process.

True... But there's a definitely a different feel when it
comes to support (between Windows and Linux). And I'm not entirely
sure I'm going to describe this well; so bear with me on this...

When I go in search of help for something in Windows, I can
invariably find the answer that I'm looking for within no more than 10
minutes of hits to the search results. Looking for help for some of
the issues that I've got going with Ubuntu is like a webwork of links
to links to links to links, all half-helping with some part of an
issue or not even remotely related to the problem that I've had going.
Back last year when I was searching for issues with hardware for
Gutsy, I usually ended up seeing what that troll MB described not so
affectionately called "Linux Nutjobs"... who in the middle of helping
ended up not solving the problem for the individual, simply added
after troubleshooting through 45% of it, ended up posting something
along the lines of "well it works for me..." or better still would
quote back to an issue that seemed remotely related, that didn't solve
the problem at all. Heh, in one instance, the cross-referenced
information provided made the issue worse, and I ended up reverting
from backups to stop the problem that it had created.

I'll admit, troubleshooting on the Ubuntu forums this year has
improved. However, I still get the impression too many people are
trying to help that should in no uncertain terms, sftu, sit down let
those with more experience actually answer the questions.

Linux has been around about 1991 (about the same time as
Windows 3.x). I would think that with computers basically functioning
the same way, formulating a question should therefore produce the
answers you're looking for. While Syntax to correcting the problem
will naturally be different, the results from broken to working should
be the same: logical, easy to find, use, continue if not working,
until fixed, or user discretion comes into play to replace to
something that will work. Instead, I read through the problems, get
half-assed answers that seem to be more often times shots in the dark,
references to semi-related problems that don't address the issue I'm
seeing, or end up dead-ended with phrases like, "works for me, try
your luck elsewhere."

Is it because Linux's core has changed that much in that time?
Or is it something else?

>It just gets my dander up when people complain about Linux doesn't work
>just like windows.
>Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Don't worry about it. I know I was asking for trouble when it
came to posting in this particular thread. It's got troll tattooed
all over it. Anyone that's going to comment here is going to take
time to mark friend or troll.

>You will find good help from Linux users.
>caver1

Looking forward to it here. Maybe here I'll make more sense
of things than what I've been experiencing at Ubuntu's forums. I know
there are plenty of experienced people using Linux and Ubuntu that can
teach this old dog new tricks, it's just I've found my patience of
sorting through the gaggle of chatty-cathys on the forums to find the
experienced people has been taxed enough.
At least here and with this reader (Windows I know, forgive
me) I can mark readers and check for answers to questions that much
more quickly.
--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity

> So far I am, but I have to admit that getting used to knowing
> how to ask the correct questions in forums, and hitting the search
> engines and getting the answers I'm needing has been the most
> frustrating. Asking about Ubuntu+SAA7130 ends up pulling information
> on Gentoo, Puppy or even Red Hat. Hell, I've even pulled help on
> Mandrake/Mandriva Distros for that card.
> That to men says, "too many flavors..." and too many people
> making comparisons when they're supporting a distro and the problem
> someone is looking for help with something not working.




Once you start to learn where the proper help is, or who to listen to,
your time spent looking will be cut drastically.
Personally I find the best first through Google then the
Ubuntuforums.org. Lastly here as these newsgroups have alot of noise and
to me seem to be more for entertainment.


>> Everyone's needs are different. I personally have had no problems with
>> Ubuntu. Has always just worked for me. From Dapper now on to Hardy.
>
> Heh, I changed several pieces of hardware between Gutsy and
> Hardy. Namely Video Card, DVD drive, Soundcard, added a TV Card, and
> Webcam. Canonical changed sound controls from ALSA to Pulse (or
> whatever it's called), and that changes the dynamics of the problems
> experiences..
> The good side was that the video card was a breeze, and I like
> the new controls for it in Hardy that didn't rely on Envy, and the
> ability to change the conf file made me really happy.
> The soundcard... heh, well you're getting a feel of my pain.
>> If you remember back things just didn't work in windows either it was a
>> learning process.



You can still use Alsa in Hardy if you want. I also have oem Audigy
cards that I am still using.


> True... But there's a definitely a different feel when it
> comes to support (between Windows and Linux). And I'm not entirely
> sure I'm going to describe this well; so bear with me on this...
>
> When I go in search of help for something in Windows, I can
> invariably find the answer that I'm looking for within no more than 10
> minutes of hits to the search results. Looking for help for some of
> the issues that I've got going with Ubuntu is like a webwork of links
> to links to links to links, all half-helping with some part of an
> issue or not even remotely related to the problem that I've had going.
> Back last year when I was searching for issues with hardware for
> Gutsy, I usually ended up seeing what that troll MB described not so
> affectionately called "Linux Nutjobs"... who in the middle of helping
> ended up not solving the problem for the individual, simply added
> after troubleshooting through 45% of it, ended up posting something
> along the lines of "well it works for me..." or better still would
> quote back to an issue that seemed remotely related, that didn't solve
> the problem at all. Heh, in one instance, the cross-referenced
> information provided made the issue worse, and I ended up reverting
> from backups to stop the problem that it had created.



> I'll admit, troubleshooting on the Ubuntu forums this year has
> improved. However, I still get the impression too many people are
> trying to help that should in no uncertain terms, sftu, sit down let
> those with more experience actually answer the questions.


I locked up a few installs following half solutions. Finally I started
figuring out not to do that.
There are still alot out there. I found that the Linux Cookbook helped
tremendously. Its by Carla Schroder published by O'Reilly.
I try to keep my mouth shut unless I know for a fact that what I am
giving works.



> Linux has been around about 1991 (about the same time as
> Windows 3.x). I would think that with computers basically functioning
> the same way, formulating a question should therefore produce the
> answers you're looking for. While Syntax to correcting the problem
> will naturally be different, the results from broken to working should
> be the same: logical, easy to find, use, continue if not working,
> until fixed, or user discretion comes into play to replace to
> something that will work. Instead, I read through the problems, get
> half-assed answers that seem to be more often times shots in the dark,
> references to semi-related problems that don't address the issue I'm
> seeing, or end up dead-ended with phrases like, "works for me, try
> your luck elsewhere."


Sometimes the works for me is some that are trying to show that it maybe
something specific to your system. Which doesn't really help unless you
also say what that system is so you can compare. Some blame their
problems on Linux when it is actually something else. Maybe hardware or
a conflict between programs. No different than in other OS's.

> Is it because Linux's core has changed that much in that time?
> Or is it something else?
>
>> It just gets my dander up when people complain about Linux doesn't work
>> just like windows.
>> Sorry if I misunderstood you.
>
> Don't worry about it. I know I was asking for trouble when it
> came to posting in this particular thread. It's got troll tattooed
> all over it. Anyone that's going to comment here is going to take
> time to mark friend or troll.
>
>> You will find good help from Linux users.
>> caver1
>
> Looking forward to it here. Maybe here I'll make more sense
> of things than what I've been experiencing at Ubuntu's forums. I know
> there are plenty of experienced people using Linux and Ubuntu that can
> teach this old dog new tricks, it's just I've found my patience of
> sorting through the gaggle of chatty-cathys on the forums to find the
> experienced people has been taxed enough.
> At least here and with this reader (Windows I know, forgive
> me) I can mark readers and check for answers to questions that much
> more quickly.

Most of the time I don't even look to see what a person is posting with.
You will find that if you want answers here try not to just blindly put
the blame on Linux. When you do you are just asking for trouble.
caver1

On Sat, 09 Aug 2008 10:05:29 -0400, caver1
wrote:

>Once you start to learn where the proper help is, or who to listen to,
>your time spent looking will be cut drastically.

I think the other problem that I'm having when searching out
for help on the Ubuntu forums has been that the index there follows an
entirely different set of rules that I'm familiar with hitting Yahoo
and Google. Type in a specific error message, and voila, I've got the
solution at my fingertips. Type the same issue and you end up getting
non-related solutions for non-related problems.

Take for example a slight annoyance that I had at one point.
When in Themes and customizing it, all the preview icons for folder
and drive icons disappeared and were replaced with the lovely X file
icon instead.

In Windows, that's an easy enough fix.. Pick up TweakXP. In
Ubuntu Forums, you get half-hearted explanation of uninstalling the
misbehaved icon set and reinstalling.
That didn't fix my problem at all.
Looked for a tweak program for Ubuntu... Didn't seem to
exist.

Eventually I just reinstalled the OS.. It was the fastest way
of solving the three other problems that I had cropped up along the
way.

Still don't think I've found an adequate answer, and the two
threads on Ubuntu Forums that I posted the question to seems not to
have yielded any answers whatsoever.

>Personally I find the best first through Google then the
>Ubuntuforums.org. Lastly here as these newsgroups have alot of noise and
>to me seem to be more for entertainment.

Still trying to get the hang of Google/Linux. Ubuntu Forums
I'm finding I'm getting rapidly tired of putting in the question
multiple ways, and getting the same non-answer results. Surprisingly
I've found at least one answer here on the forums that I'm willing to
give a try in (installing TTF fonts). And this one which I'm saving
and have questions on.

>You can still use Alsa in Hardy if you want. I also have oem Audigy
>cards that I am still using.

Be still my beating heart as it goes pitter-pat with
anticipation. Tell me -- did you completely disable Pulse in the
process? And what's been your success with the shared port between
mic/line-out?

I had originally followed the instructions from

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.p...PulseAudio+bug
Which is as follows:

1.

sudo apt-get install libc-dev

wget
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/140742...untu1_i386.deb
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/140742...untu1_i386.deb
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/143692...untu1_i386.deb

sudo dpkg -i libasound2_1.0.16-2ubuntu1_i386.deb
libasound2-dev_1.0.16-2ubuntu1_i386.deb
libasound2-plugins_1.0.16-1ubuntu1_i386.deb

2. Create a new file called "/etc/asound.conf", and paste the
following into it (if this file already exists, then make a backup and
delete its contents):

pcm.pulse {
type pulse
}

ctl.pulse {
type pulse
}

pcm.!default {
type pulse
}

ctl.!default {
type pulse
}

3.

sudo apt-get remove libflashsupport nspluginwrapper

wget
http://launchpadlibrarian.net/146298...untu1_i386.deb

sudo dpkg -i flashplugin-nonfree_10.0.1.218ubuntu1_i386.deb

sudo adduser $USER pulse-access

sudo adduser $USER pulse-rt

Enable the "hardy-proposed" repository via Synaptic and perform a
dist-upgrade to get kernel 2.6.24-17-generic. Hopefully it is not
necessary to describe this in detail; most people should be able to
figure it out.

Reboot to the new kernel and test to see if stuttering has reduced or
been eliminated.

(OPTIONAL) ONLY If the new kernel didn't help, and you wish to adjust
PulseAudio buffering to see if it helps stuttering, edit
"/etc/pulse/daemon.conf" and amend the lines marked in red:

Code:

; default-sample-format = s16le
; default-sample-rate = 48000
; default-sample-channels = 2

default-fragments = 8
default-fragment-size-msec = 5

Even with using this, I find that it occasionally skips where
it's not supposed to, and of course as it says, still doesn't play
entirely nice with Rhythmbox (as that's a GStreamer program).

Sure I might get 5.1 surround out of Pulse as well, but the
problem is that it's an emulated 5.1 and has limited control on the
speaker array. Not exactly the sort of thing I'm used to given that
I've got complete control in Windows (including EAX, Bass Management,
Bass Boost, Environmental Audio Effects, etc)

>Sometimes the works for me is some that are trying to show that it maybe
>something specific to your system. Which doesn't really help unless you
>also say what that system is so you can compare. Some blame their
>problems on Linux when it is actually something else. Maybe hardware or
>a conflict between programs. No different than in other OS's.

The thing about this is that it's not as though I'm running
any really bizarre hardware on my computer that could create a
conflict.

Soundblaster Audigy (LS according to Linux)
nVidia 6200 AGP
SAA7130 TV/Radio Card
ATA Memorex DVD/Blue Ray Drive
ATA CD/R Drive
Parallel Zip 100 Drive (heh, I know, it's a dinosaur, but it's
still runs after 11+ years and I'm half wanting to see how long it'll
last before the poor thing gives up the ghost).
Apple iPod 30 GB (last generation, and that's only run on
Windows only)
Motorola Razr 3 (Phonetools in Windows, KMobile in 'buntu)
Standard ATA/USB 30 GB Hard drive (important backups only,
mainly Windows only. Yep, I've had that drive now for almost 11 years
as well).
Various thumbdrives, new and not so.

All this hardware has drivers and support in Windows XP for
years, and has support from what I've been able to tell in 'buntu --
particularly given that I think the newest piece of hardware I have is
in fact the Blue-Ray.

>Most of the time I don't even look to see what a person is posting with.
>You will find that if you want answers here try not to just blindly put
>the blame on Linux. When you do you are just asking for trouble.

Blame? No. I don't see me wanting to plant the blame. Hard
to given that I'm still trying to get the hang of the OS.

At the same time, I find myself simultaneously surprised and
stymied that for an OS that's been around for about as long as XP and
a fork off from Debian that's been around since 3.x, it's still got a
lot to work out. Here's to hoping that it doesn't turn into a "you
get what you pay for"...

And thanks for the reference to the Linux Cookbook. I'm going
to be ordering it my next paycheck.

--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 `
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/ Who are these folks and why have they
/ / stopped taking their medication?
- Captain Infinity