Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine - Ubuntu ; On 2008-07-14, Rockinghorse Winner wrote: > > There are really two classes of computer users, those who know what they're > doing (for the most part), and those that don't (for the most part). The > one needs the CLI ...

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Thread: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

  1. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-14, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
    >
    > There are really two classes of computer users, those who know what they're
    > doing (for the most part), and those that don't (for the most part). The
    > one needs the CLI if they're going to make full use of the OS and speed work
    > and maintenance. The other have a limited number of demands, that can be
    > counted on one hand -- mainly internet applications, multimedia, printing.
    > There is liable to be very little maintenance performed manually, other than
    > what is built into the system.
    >
    > For this reason, I believe Linux is the better OS for Mom & Dad, not to
    > mention grandpa and grandma, because the whole circle of hell know as
    > malware is entirely sidestepped. Their computers will not slow to a halt every
    > 3 weeks from spyware nececitating the kid to come over and *fix Dad's
    > computer.*
    >
    > If you're going to give a computer to your folks, you'd have to be cruel to
    > give them a Windows machine, IMO.


    I would whole-heartedly agree.

    When giving a system to someone of limited knowledge, it just makes
    sense to give them a machine with everything installed that they need,
    and not giving them access to any admin functions. Install ssh
    (securely) and open a firewall port so that you can log in remotely if
    they need some minor problem fixed, or if they need an additional app
    installed.

    They can get their e-mail, use the web, write their documents and
    print them, and so on. What they WON'T get is the viruses and
    spyware. They won't have to fear web sites that might be considered
    "dangerous". They won't have to be afraid of opening e-mails. They
    won't be able to install that great screensaver-virus that their
    friend gave them.

    Be kind to your parents, give them Linux...

    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

  2. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:
    > On 2008-07-14, Rockinghorse Winner wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >> There are really two classes of computer users, those who know what
    >> they're doing (for the most part), and those that don't (for the
    >> most part). The one needs the CLI if they're going to make full
    >> use of the OS and speed work and maintenance. The other have a
    >> limited number of demands, that can be counted on one hand --
    >> mainly internet applications, multimedia, printing. There is liable
    >> to be very little maintenance performed manually, other than what
    >> is built into the system.
    >>
    >> For this reason, I believe Linux is the better OS for Mom & Dad,
    >> not to mention grandpa and grandma, because the whole circle of
    >> hell know as malware is entirely sidestepped. Their computers will
    >> not slow to a halt every 3 weeks from spyware nececitating the kid
    >> to come over and *fix Dad's computer.*
    >>
    >> If you're going to give a computer to your folks, you'd have to be
    >> cruel to give them a Windows machine, IMO.

    >
    > I would whole-heartedly agree.
    >
    > When giving a system to someone of limited knowledge, it just makes
    > sense to give them a machine with everything installed that they
    > need, and not giving them access to any admin functions. Install ssh
    > (securely) and open a firewall port so that you can log in remotely
    > if they need some minor problem fixed, or if they need an additional
    > app installed.
    >
    > They can get their e-mail, use the web, write their documents and
    > print them, and so on. What they WON'T get is the viruses and
    > spyware. They won't have to fear web sites that might be considered
    > "dangerous". They won't have to be afraid of opening e-mails. They
    > won't be able to install that great screensaver-virus that their
    > friend gave them.
    >
    > Be kind to your parents, give them Linux...
    >


    I agree, with the exception of a significant middle class of
    parents/grandparents etc. who've become so accustomed to windows
    problems they refuse to risk the best days of their life being frittered
    away while adjusting to a purportedly superior technology that could be
    proven obsolete before their windows box has finished booting.

    Generally, if the parental hierarchy is anything like most of my peers,
    either no young upstart can convince them of very much at all, or
    they've long become accustomed to a richness of life many younger would
    be mentors haven't even recognised, let alone endeavoured to qualify for.

    --
    Bob
    Calling alcoholism 'a disease' is
    the politically correct substitute for 'a self induced insanity.'

  3. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:
    > On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution

    to so
    >> many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    >> You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    >> to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    >> Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the

    terminal
    >> command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    >> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    >> frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    >> purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    >> therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    >> solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    >> front-end for Chrissake.

    >
    > That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    >
    > For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >
    > Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    > Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    > and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    > vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    > through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.
    >
    > Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >
    > sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >
    > Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    >
    > Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    > end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    >
    > Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    > install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    > or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    > tool.
    >
    > This isn't windows.
    >
    >


    It might not be Windows, but some distros like Ubuntu are trying to make
    themselves as viable a Windows alternative for the everyman as possible.
    It's for those people who tools like Synaptic and Yum Extender were made
    for, and those people who are going to do it. Yes, if you know how to do
    it you can very quickly in the CLI. Assume for a second that tools like
    Yumex and Synaptic don't exist. For the everyman using Linux, they can
    turn to a forum or Usenet to find a solution. When they're given a
    command line instruction to paste into the terminal, that can be a bit
    intimidating and for the everyman, a bit of a turn-off. Most people who
    come to Linux from the Windows OS are usually used to being able to do
    nigh everything in the GUI, and for the vast majority of people looking
    for a free replacement for Windows, that's what they want to be able to
    do in Linux. They usually don't have the patience to learn to use the
    terminal as fluently as most power users can, and probably don't want to
    have to turn to forums and Usenet for a solution for the rest of their
    lives. If they can quickly learn to use Synaptic and it feels like what
    they're used to, good. If someone is a power user used to using the CLI
    for everything, good for them, and more power to them, too. But IMO,
    it's not for intimidating new users switching from Windows, especially
    when they can be taught very quickly to use Synaptic or Yumex and it
    feels just like Windows.

  4. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-14, Ben wrote:
    > Joe wrote:
    > > On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    > >> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution

    > to so
    > >> many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    > >> You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    > >> to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    > >> Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the

    > terminal
    > >> command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    > >> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    > >> frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    > >> purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    > >> therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    > >> solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    > >> front-end for Chrissake.

    > >
    > > That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    > >
    > > For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    > >
    > > Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    > > Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    > > and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    > > vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    > > through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.
    > >
    > > Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    > >
    > > sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    > >
    > > Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    > >
    > > Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    > > end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    > >
    > > Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    > > install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    > > or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    > > tool.
    > >
    > > This isn't windows.
    > >
    > >

    >
    > It might not be Windows, but some distros like Ubuntu are trying to make
    > themselves as viable a Windows alternative for the everyman as possible.
    > It's for those people who tools like Synaptic and Yum Extender were made
    > for, and those people who are going to do it. Yes, if you know how to do
    > it you can very quickly in the CLI. Assume for a second that tools like
    > Yumex and Synaptic don't exist. For the everyman using Linux, they can
    > turn to a forum or Usenet to find a solution. When they're given a
    > command line instruction to paste into the terminal, that can be a bit
    > intimidating and for the everyman, a bit of a turn-off. Most people who
    > come to Linux from the Windows OS are usually used to being able to do
    > nigh everything in the GUI, and for the vast majority of people looking
    > for a free replacement for Windows, that's what they want to be able to
    > do in Linux. They usually don't have the patience to learn to use the
    > terminal as fluently as most power users can, and probably don't want to
    > have to turn to forums and Usenet for a solution for the rest of their
    > lives. If they can quickly learn to use Synaptic and it feels like what
    > they're used to, good. If someone is a power user used to using the CLI
    > for everything, good for them, and more power to them, too. But IMO,
    > it's not for intimidating new users switching from Windows, especially
    > when they can be taught very quickly to use Synaptic or Yumex and it
    > feels just like Windows.


    OK, so you are being intentionally obtuse.

    It has already been explained to you why such answers are given, and
    will continue to be given. If you don't like those answers, I guess
    you should move back to Windows.

    I don't care if a Majority of Windows users are used to being able to
    do anything from a GUI. They move to Linux because they are not happy
    with some aspect of Windows. If they like Windows, they will stay
    with it. When they move to Linux, if they are incapable of
    understanding how to copy and paste, they should probably not be here
    anyhow, or even using a computer in the first place.

    It is incredibly ****y to come to a forum to ask for help, then bitch
    about the form of the help. But don't worry, because you'll be hard
    pressed to find any anyhow, considering your attitude...


    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

  5. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Ben wrote:

    > It might not be Windows, but some distros like Ubuntu are trying to
    > make themselves as viable a Windows alternative for the everyman as
    > possible. It's for those people who tools like Synaptic and Yum
    > Extender were made for, and those people who are going to do it. Yes,
    > if you know how to do it you can very quickly in the CLI. Assume for a
    > second that tools like Yumex and Synaptic don't exist. For the
    > everyman using Linux, they can turn to a forum or Usenet to find a
    > solution. When they're given a command line instruction to paste into
    > the terminal, that can be a bit intimidating and for the everyman, a
    > bit of a turn-off. Most people who come to Linux from the Windows OS
    > are usually used to being able to do nigh everything in the GUI, and
    > for the vast majority of people looking for a free replacement for
    > Windows, that's what they want to be able to do in Linux. They usually
    > don't have the patience to learn to use the terminal as fluently as
    > most power users can, and probably don't want to have to turn to
    > forums and Usenet for a solution for the rest of their lives. If they
    > can quickly learn to use Synaptic and it feels like what they're used
    > to, good. If someone is a power user used to using the CLI for
    > everything, good for them, and more power to them, too. But IMO, it's
    > not for intimidating new users switching from Windows, especially when
    > they can be taught very quickly to use Synaptic or Yumex and it feels
    > just like Windows.



    Somehow I sense you are one of those about whom you speak. IOW, unable
    or too lazy to learn anything new?

    If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    knowledge and every use.

    In that case, would you mind so terribly if I asked for your assistance
    in providing me the winning Power Ball number?

    I promise to split with you.


    --
    John

    No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

    The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

  6. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:
    > On 2008-07-14, Ben wrote:
    >> Joe wrote:
    >>> On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >>>> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution

    >> to so
    >>>> many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    >>>> You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    >>>> to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    >>>> Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the

    >> terminal
    >>>> command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    >>>> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    >>>> frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    >>>> purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    >>>> therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    >>>> solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    >>>> front-end for Chrissake.
    >>> That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    >>>
    >>> For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >>>
    >>> Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    >>> Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    >>> and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    >>> vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    >>> through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.
    >>>
    >>> Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >>>
    >>> sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >>>
    >>> Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    >>>
    >>> Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    >>> end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    >>>
    >>> Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    >>> install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    >>> or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    >>> tool.
    >>>
    >>> This isn't windows.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> It might not be Windows, but some distros like Ubuntu are trying to make
    >> themselves as viable a Windows alternative for the everyman as possible.
    >> It's for those people who tools like Synaptic and Yum Extender were made
    >> for, and those people who are going to do it. Yes, if you know how to do
    >> it you can very quickly in the CLI. Assume for a second that tools like
    >> Yumex and Synaptic don't exist. For the everyman using Linux, they can
    >> turn to a forum or Usenet to find a solution. When they're given a
    >> command line instruction to paste into the terminal, that can be a bit
    >> intimidating and for the everyman, a bit of a turn-off. Most people who
    >> come to Linux from the Windows OS are usually used to being able to do
    >> nigh everything in the GUI, and for the vast majority of people looking
    >> for a free replacement for Windows, that's what they want to be able to
    >> do in Linux. They usually don't have the patience to learn to use the
    >> terminal as fluently as most power users can, and probably don't want to
    >> have to turn to forums and Usenet for a solution for the rest of their
    >> lives. If they can quickly learn to use Synaptic and it feels like what
    >> they're used to, good. If someone is a power user used to using the CLI
    >> for everything, good for them, and more power to them, too. But IMO,
    >> it's not for intimidating new users switching from Windows, especially
    >> when they can be taught very quickly to use Synaptic or Yumex and it
    >> feels just like Windows.

    >
    > OK, so you are being intentionally obtuse.
    >
    > It has already been explained to you why such answers are given, and
    > will continue to be given. If you don't like those answers, I guess
    > you should move back to Windows.
    >
    > I don't care if a Majority of Windows users are used to being able to
    > do anything from a GUI. They move to Linux because they are not happy
    > with some aspect of Windows. If they like Windows, they will stay
    > with it. When they move to Linux, if they are incapable of
    > understanding how to copy and paste, they should probably not be here
    > anyhow, or even using a computer in the first place.
    >
    > It is incredibly ****y to come to a forum to ask for help, then bitch
    > about the form of the help. But don't worry, because you'll be hard
    > pressed to find any anyhow, considering your attitude...
    >
    >


    Firstly, I'm not being obtuse.

    Secondly, ok, so let's back up a little bit. People consider switching
    from Windows to Linux, usually Ubuntu, because yes, for whatever reason
    they see a problem with Windows, be it that they dislike Microsoft's
    business practices or a somewhat more technical aspect of the OS, or
    they're just financially restricted. Ubuntu markets itself as an easy
    replacement for a Windows OS. It has software like Synaptic to make it
    easier for people to make that leap. Remember, one of the main reasons
    why people refuse to try Linux is a fear of inertia, and I think Ubuntu,
    when used as it was designed, mitigates that inertia quite a lot.

    When Ubuntu's developers created graphical frontends for most
    administration jobs in the OS, I don't think they had advanced users who
    have been with Linux for 10+ years and can perform most administration
    jobs using the CLI in their sleep in mind.

    Thirdly, yes it is very easy for a beginner user to copy/paste from a
    forum into the CLI. But barking CLI instructions at them doesn't do much
    in the way of developing their ability to use the OS independently, does
    it? A user with a relatively low experience of Linux will come to
    Ubuntu, seeing how it's been marketed as a very user-friendly OS and
    then quickly become disillusioned once they see that nearly everything
    is done in the CLI in practice. They may be able to keep asking for help
    every time they have a problem, but unless they're already pretty
    skilled in computing they're not going to be learning to do this
    themselves any time soon. An average user doesn't always care how much
    faster the CLI might be at doing something, they just want to get the
    job done as quickly as possible and in a way they understand and can
    repeat, memorise and generalise to anything in that field, which is what
    a GUI usually does.

    Fourthly, I'm not the one seeking help on forums; I've used Linux since
    I was 14 years old, which is a fair number of years now (I'm not stating
    exactly how many because that would give away my age now ). However,
    I can speak from the experience of knowing several people who have tried
    Ubuntu and then switched back to Windows, because they were intimidated
    by the CLI and doubting they'd ever learn it, and not wanting to rely on
    forums whenever they want to do something with the OS for the rest of
    their lives. I've also known people who have been outright intimidated
    by the OS at first glance and not wanted to give it a try because it
    seems too technical, period. In both instances they've loosened up to
    trying the OS when I've shown them through doing everything on Ubuntu
    they need through the GUI, which is what these features were designed
    for, after all.

  7. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    John F. Morse wrote:
    > If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    > All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    > knowledge and every use.


    Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible and
    less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems a
    rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et cetera
    invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like doing
    things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from Windows,
    don't.

  8. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Ben wrote:
    > John F. Morse wrote:
    >> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the
    >> answers. All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's
    >> computer knowledge and every use.

    >
    > Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible
    > and less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems
    > a rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et
    > cetera invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like
    > doing things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from
    > Windows, don't.


    Thanks for verifying my suspicions. I spoke for myself, but you are
    still speaking for, "a lot of newbies switching from Windows," as you
    put it above.

    Oh, your understanding of my likes and dislikes is inaccurate as well. I
    spend probably 95% of my time on the Internet, using Thunderbird, in GNOME.

    I use a terminal (CLI or "command line") for maintenance, usually
    remotely, via ssh.

    I believe in using the proper tool for doing any job.

    You and your Windows n00bs wouldn't be as involved in maintenance and
    administration, so the GUI is fitting for your use.

    --
    John

    No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

    The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

  9. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    John F. Morse wrote:
    > Ben wrote:
    >> John F. Morse wrote:
    >>> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the
    >>> answers. All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's
    >>> computer knowledge and every use.

    >>
    >> Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible
    >> and less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems
    >> a rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et
    >> cetera invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like
    >> doing things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from
    >> Windows, don't.

    >
    > Thanks for verifying my suspicions. I spoke for myself, but you are
    > still speaking for, "a lot of newbies switching from Windows," as you
    > put it above.
    >
    > Oh, your understanding of my likes and dislikes is inaccurate as well. I
    > spend probably 95% of my time on the Internet, using Thunderbird, in GNOME.
    >
    > I use a terminal (CLI or "command line") for maintenance, usually
    > remotely, via ssh.
    >
    > I believe in using the proper tool for doing any job.
    >
    > You and your Windows n00bs wouldn't be as involved in maintenance and
    > administration, so the GUI is fitting for your use.
    >


    *rolls eyes* Read my parallel post responding to Joe above. Your
    suspicions that I'm a "Windows n00b" and a "Linux n00b" are quite wrong,
    I've used Linux since I was 14 and I can remember the days of Red Hat
    Linux, FYI.

    But yeah, read my response to Joe. You might be able to learn something
    from it yourself. Or perhaps not, depending on how you approach it.

  10. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Ben wrote:
    > John F. Morse wrote:
    >> Ben wrote:
    >>> John F. Morse wrote:
    >>>> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the
    >>>> answers. All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all
    >>>> other's computer knowledge and every use.
    >>>
    >>> Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible
    >>> and less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which
    >>> seems a rather impossible feat here, even with software like
    >>> Synaptic et cetera invented for exactly that purpose. I understand
    >>> that you like doing things from the command line, a lot of newbies
    >>> switching from Windows, don't.

    >>
    >> Thanks for verifying my suspicions. I spoke for myself, but you are
    >> still speaking for, "a lot of newbies switching from Windows," as you
    >> put it above.
    >>
    >> Oh, your understanding of my likes and dislikes is inaccurate as
    >> well. I spend probably 95% of my time on the Internet, using
    >> Thunderbird, in GNOME.
    >>
    >> I use a terminal (CLI or "command line") for maintenance, usually
    >> remotely, via ssh.
    >>
    >> I believe in using the proper tool for doing any job.
    >>
    >> You and your Windows n00bs wouldn't be as involved in maintenance and
    >> administration, so the GUI is fitting for your use.
    >>

    >
    > *rolls eyes* Read my parallel post responding to Joe above. Your
    > suspicions that I'm a "Windows n00b" and a "Linux n00b" are quite
    > wrong, I've used Linux since I was 14 and I can remember the days of
    > Red Hat Linux, FYI.
    >
    > But yeah, read my response to Joe. You might be able to learn
    > something from it yourself. Or perhaps not, depending on how you
    > approach it.



    Using Linux since you were knee-high to a grasshopper means nothing,
    Ben. What is important is how many total hours you have invested. Then
    in those hours, how many were spent doing something other than playing a
    game. And how good are you on comprehension and memory, or are all of
    your hours like the "monkey see, monkey do" education? Only you know,
    but you may not know how to determine what it really means.

    You specify you've "used" Linux since you were 14. Now the question is,
    how old are you today? You could be 15, making you an "advanced n00b." ;-)

    If you started using "Linux" when it was first available, in 1991, you
    would have 17 years of "Linux" experience, and you would be 31 --
    exactly half my age. You would also be far more "active" in the CLI
    terminal than even I am, since that is all there was back then.

    I just don't buy your complete story Ben. You make some good points, but
    there is that cloud, or smell, hanging over the total offering. Joe
    senses this as well as probably most any of the more experienced users
    of this newsgroup. I use "experienced" as opposed to "aged" users.

    An employer might be a better gauge to your knowledge, but he also
    figures in other things like speed in production, ability to get along
    with others, dedication, absences, ability to take and follow orders,
    ..... Very complicated, and IMHO, unreliable for judging someone's real
    technical abilities. Many bright stars in computerdom were early
    law-breakers and school dropouts. Many know-nothings today have an
    impeccable educational record, and have never received even a parking
    ticket.

    Don't take that the wrong way because I'm not pointing any finger at you
    or your use. Only at your misunderstanding that some number of years
    makes one an expert. You can sleep with "Linux for Dummies" under your
    bed for 14 years and not know one thing about Linux.

    I read what you said to Joe, and completely understand it. It is a
    different view than what I presented. You cannot see all of the trees
    from one edge of the forest, let alone be expected to identify all of them.

    For instance, I have Red Hat 5.2 running on a server in my basement, as
    well as Mandrake 8.0. That takes me back to around 1998 IIRC. Then
    there's my Unix experience when I worked for Southwestern Bell Telephone
    Company from 1968 until 1988. I used but wasn't "into" Unix during that
    period though, since it was "only a job." At quitting time it was Miller
    Time.

    My real learning started in 1978 when I bought an Apple ][ computer,
    learned 6502, assembler, Pascal, FORTRAN, etc., including some nasty
    COBOL which my mother programmed for the USDA.

    The point, Ben, is there are different strokes for different folks.
    COBOL is still used by many people. Too many still use Windows, and it
    is because they know no better and are gullible to Micr0$lut's lies.
    Some are downright lazy and won't try to learn another OS (like they
    really know hardly anything about Windows anyway). A PC to them is
    simply an Internet Appliance and nothing else.

    If you took away their Windows and gave then Ubuntu, they would go
    through every day on the Internet as usual -- except they wouldn't be
    plagued with all the nasties that Windows "provides."

    This is a newsgroup in which participants should be asking for Ubuntu
    help, and for those who have answers, they should be providing Ubuntu
    help. There are other newsgroups for advocacy, and for Windows people.
    Their troubles should be aired there. We don't want them. Most of us
    have escaped that bondage and do not wish to reminisce.


    --
    John

    No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

    The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

  11. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    in 63687 20080715 041713 Ben wrote:
    >John F. Morse wrote:
    >> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    >> All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    >> knowledge and every use.

    >
    >Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible and
    >less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems a
    >rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et cetera
    >invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like doing
    >things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from Windows,
    >don't.


    The CLI is more intuitive and natural to human beings. When you go into a
    shop which would you prefer : to say "I would like x please" or to struggle
    with a GUI of list boxes, entry boxes, radio buttons, check buttons etc etc?

  12. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Bob Martin wrote:
    snip

    >
    > The CLI is more intuitive and natural to human beings. When you go
    > into a shop which would you prefer : to say "I would like x please"
    > or to struggle with a GUI of list boxes, entry boxes, radio buttons,
    > check buttons etc etc?


    Hey, Bob. If you'd like to join a cli V gui conversation in
    a.o.l.advocacy, I've now subscribed there; just to see if cli alchemy
    can turn two bob into at a quid.

    --
    Bob
    Calling alcoholism 'a disease' is
    the politically correct substitute for 'a self induced insanity.'

  13. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-15, Ben wrote:
    >
    > Firstly, I'm not being obtuse.


    Yes, you are...

    >
    > Secondly, ok, so let's back up a little bit. People consider switching
    > from Windows to Linux, usually Ubuntu, because yes, for whatever reason
    > they see a problem with Windows, be it that they dislike Microsoft's
    > business practices or a somewhat more technical aspect of the OS, or
    > they're just financially restricted. Ubuntu markets itself as an easy
    > replacement for a Windows OS. It has software like Synaptic to make it
    > easier for people to make that leap. Remember, one of the main reasons
    > why people refuse to try Linux is a fear of inertia, and I think Ubuntu,
    > when used as it was designed, mitigates that inertia quite a lot.


    Which version of Ubuntu?

    >
    > When Ubuntu's developers created graphical frontends for most
    > administration jobs in the OS, I don't think they had advanced users who
    > have been with Linux for 10+ years and can perform most administration
    > jobs using the CLI in their sleep in mind.


    Again, no need...

    >
    > Thirdly, yes it is very easy for a beginner user to copy/paste from a
    > forum into the CLI. But barking CLI instructions at them doesn't do much
    > in the way of developing their ability to use the OS independently, does
    > it? A user with a relatively low experience of Linux will come to
    > Ubuntu, seeing how it's been marketed as a very user-friendly OS and
    > then quickly become disillusioned once they see that nearly everything
    > is done in the CLI in practice. They may be able to keep asking for help
    > every time they have a problem, but unless they're already pretty
    > skilled in computing they're not going to be learning to do this
    > themselves any time soon. An average user doesn't always care how much
    > faster the CLI might be at doing something, they just want to get the
    > job done as quickly as possible and in a way they understand and can
    > repeat, memorise and generalise to anything in that field, which is what
    > a GUI usually does.


    If they are average users, they don't plan on doing these things
    repeatedly, anyhow, so no need to really learn them. The commands
    that are given to them are generally very easy to understand, and
    remove a fair bit of generalization.

    sudo apt-get install vlc

    Works in Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu. It works in Debian. It works in
    Mint. It works in pretty much *ANY* debian-based install. Synaptic
    does not exist in many of those. This forum is for the support of any
    Ubuntu distro.

    >
    > Fourthly, I'm not the one seeking help on forums; I've used Linux since
    > I was 14 years old, which is a fair number of years now (I'm not stating
    > exactly how many because that would give away my age now ). However,
    > I can speak from the experience of knowing several people who have tried
    > Ubuntu and then switched back to Windows, because they were intimidated
    > by the CLI and doubting they'd ever learn it, and not wanting to rely on
    > forums whenever they want to do something with the OS for the rest of
    > their lives. I've also known people who have been outright intimidated
    > by the OS at first glance and not wanted to give it a try because it
    > seems too technical, period. In both instances they've loosened up to
    > trying the OS when I've shown them through doing everything on Ubuntu
    > they need through the GUI, which is what these features were designed
    > for, after all.


    Sure it is, but it is not the most effiecient, or necessarily the best
    way to do many things. It is slower, harder to convey through text,
    and usually does not have all of the options that the cli version will
    have.


    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

  14. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-15, Ben wrote:
    >
    > *rolls eyes* Read my parallel post responding to Joe above. Your
    > suspicions that I'm a "Windows n00b" and a "Linux n00b" are quite wrong,
    > I've used Linux since I was 14 and I can remember the days of Red Hat
    > Linux, FYI.


    These are still the days of Red Hat Linux. It is alive and well, and
    quite common. Hell, in business, it is huge.

    >
    > But yeah, read my response to Joe. You might be able to learn something
    > from it yourself. Or perhaps not, depending on how you approach it.


    My fear is that you will not...


    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

  15. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-15, Bob Martin wrote:
    > in 63687 20080715 041713 Ben wrote:
    >>John F. Morse wrote:
    >>> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    >>> All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    >>> knowledge and every use.

    >>
    >>Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible and
    >>less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems a
    >>rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et cetera
    >>invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like doing
    >>things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from Windows,
    >>don't.

    >
    > The CLI is more intuitive and natural to human beings.


    That was confirmed by this study:
    .


    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, author |
    Shell Scripting Recipes: | My code in this post, if any,
    A Problem-Solution Approach | is released under the
    2005, Apress | GNU General Public Licence

  16. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:
    > On 2008-07-15, Ben wrote:


    >
    > If they are average users, they don't plan on doing these things
    > repeatedly, anyhow, so no need to really learn them. The commands
    > that are given to them are generally very easy to understand, and
    > remove a fair bit of generalization.
    >


    Still, they won't be independent, and they'll probably keep running to
    forums every time they re-install the OS, have a problem, or get a new PC.

    > sudo apt-get install vlc
    >
    > Works in Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu. It works in Debian. It works in
    > Mint. It works in pretty much *ANY* debian-based install. Synaptic
    > does not exist in many of those. This forum is for the support of any
    > Ubuntu distro.
    >


    Again, few of them will remember it by heart, and they're going to hit
    Google, or a forum, every time something goes wrong instead of just
    going through a graphical install wizard like they can with Windows.

    > Sure it is, but it is not the most effiecient, or necessarily the best
    > way to do many things. It is slower, harder to convey through text,
    > and usually does not have all of the options that the cli version will
    > have.
    >
    >


    The average user isn't usually going to notice that it's a bit slower,
    and often, just won't care as long as it doesn't take all day to do
    everything, and software like Synaptic etc. are pretty efficient,
    anyway, so taking all day isn't a concern.

  17. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    > On 2008-07-15, Bob Martin wrote:
    >> in 63687 20080715 041713 Ben wrote:
    >>> John F. Morse wrote:
    >>>> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    >>>> All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    >>>> knowledge and every use.
    >>> Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible and
    >>> less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems a
    >>> rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et cetera
    >>> invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like doing
    >>> things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from Windows,
    >>> don't.

    >> The CLI is more intuitive and natural to human beings.

    >
    > That was confirmed by this study:
    > .
    >
    >


    Ok, you're giving me a study saying that CLIs are more "natural" to
    humans than a GUI. Firstly, this study begs the question of the success
    of the GUI and why people choose it over using a CLI. Secondly, to quote
    the article:

    "The key thing to remember about these newbies that I taught is that
    they were not in any way stupid or slow. Many of them had mastered
    complex technical jobs and excelled in their chosen field."

    These people, while not having a clue when it comes to computers, are
    still technically-minded. They are engineers and the likes. Yes, things
    like a CLI will, with a bit of practice, come quickly to this kind of
    person.

    To re-iterate what I said before in this post, it begs the question of
    why the typical user turns to the eye-candy of Windows and Mac, where
    today using the CLI is almost always unnecessary for the average user,
    and why they refuse to consider OSs like Linux, which offer the CLI as a
    solution for nearly everything and seems to intimidate them. I can't
    imagine trying to teach the CLI to my boss at the youth centre I work
    at, which has a network of about 30 computers and a server, especially
    since he's the only person who can perform small admin jobs on the
    server and workstations while I'm away. The way it is with a GUI, he can
    quickly get the network back up in a couple of minutes most of the time
    when it goes down, and I get a call maybe once every 3 months when I'm
    not in work and something goes wrong that he can't fix. I dread to
    imagine what kind of look he'd give me if I tried to teach him to use
    the CLI to fix everything. I'd get a lot more phone calls asking for
    help, I can guarantee that.

  18. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine


    "Ben" wrote in message
    news:g5j440$b21$1@news.mixmin.net...

    > To re-iterate what I said before in this post, it begs the question of why
    > the typical user turns to the eye-candy of Windows and Mac, where today
    > using the CLI is almost always unnecessary for the average user, and why
    > they refuse to consider OSs like Linux, which offer the CLI as a solution
    > for nearly everything and seems to intimidate them.


    It's because the average user is much smarter than any linsux user. The
    linsuxers prove that point everytime they open their brown stained mouths



  19. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    WhKw wrote:
    > "Ben" wrote in message
    > news:g5j440$b21$1@news.mixmin.net...
    >
    >> To re-iterate what I said before in this post, it begs the question of why
    >> the typical user turns to the eye-candy of Windows and Mac, where today
    >> using the CLI is almost always unnecessary for the average user, and why
    >> they refuse to consider OSs like Linux, which offer the CLI as a solution
    >> for nearly everything and seems to intimidate them.

    >
    > It's because the average user is much smarter than any linsux user. The
    > linsuxers prove that point everytime they open their brown stained mouths
    >
    >


    No; the problem isn't with the OS, it has everything there. The problem
    is that people are coaxed into using the CLI when a GUI would be far
    better suited to their needs.

  20. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    In article , Ben wrote:
    >Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    >> On 2008-07-15, Bob Martin wrote:
    >>> in 63687 20080715 041713 Ben wrote:
    >>>> John F. Morse wrote:
    >>>>> If not, forgive me for not recognizing someone who has all the answers.
    >>>>> All-seeing and all-knowing in all the matters of all other's computer
    >>>>> knowledge and every use.
    >>>> Speak for yourself, I'm talking about making the OS more accessible and
    >>>> less intimidating to new users switching from Windows, which seems a
    >>>> rather impossible feat here, even with software like Synaptic et cetera
    >>>> invented for exactly that purpose. I understand that you like doing
    >>>> things from the command line, a lot of newbies switching from Windows,
    >>>> don't.
    >>> The CLI is more intuitive and natural to human beings.

    >>
    >> That was confirmed by this study:
    >> .


    >Ok, you're giving me a study saying that CLIs are more "natural" to
    >humans than a GUI. Firstly, this study begs the question of the success
    >of the GUI and why people choose it over using a CLI.


    1) it looks pretty ? I've seen reviews of 'games' which talk lots about the
    pretty graphics and hardly mention the crappy game.
    2) marketing ? The gui didn't take off until MS marketed it.
    3) it allows stupid people to apparently 'use' computers ? Now the question
    here should be, is this a good thing ?
    (snip)
    >. I dread to
    >imagine what kind of look he'd give me if I tried to teach him to use
    >the CLI to fix everything. I'd get a lot more phone calls asking for
    >help, I can guarantee that.


    ... and yet, if you did that, maybe he'd learn something and not call you so
    often ? Ah ... doing stuff. The way learning used to work.


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