Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine - Ubuntu ; On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:04:17 +0000, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: > On 2008-06-25, davesurrey wrote: >> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:15:46 +0000, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote: >> >>> On 2008-06-25, Meat Plow wrote: >>>> On Wed, 25 Jun ...

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Thread: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

  1. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:04:17 +0000, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

    > On 2008-06-25, davesurrey wrote:
    >> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:15:46 +0000, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    >>
    >>> On 2008-06-25, Meat Plow wrote:
    >>>> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:55:54 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >>>>> Meat Plow illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Too much noise.
    >>>>
    >>>> Oooooooooooooooohhhh the IRONY.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Not enough substance from this particular poster.
    >>>>
    >>>> At least my substance is not to berate and embarrass new posters
    >>>> because they don't know what you know.
    >>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Ah what the matter? Don't like hearing the truth?
    >>>>
    >>>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't
    >>>> matter.
    >>>
    >>> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>>
    >>> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >>> keep re-posting it.
    >>>
    >>> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Chris,
    >> I hope you didn't mean this about Moog,

    >
    > Of course not. See the top attribution, which refers to the message I
    > was responding to.


    Chris,
    Whatever you mean by "see the top attribution" the fact is you did say
    "we know that" in reply to a diatribe against two folk including Moog.
    However, glad to hear you didn't mean it.
    Cheers

  2. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    davesurrey illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

    >
    >>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.

    >>
    >> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>
    >> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >> keep re-posting it.
    >>
    >> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Chris,
    > I hope you didn't mean this about Moog, as no sane person who has read
    > this group for a while could possibly call him a troll. If anyone has
    > kept a sane head with a bit of humour when things have got heated it's
    > Moog. And he has always been around to give good advice in a non-
    > confrontational way.
    > Good God. Compared with a lot of the folk here he's a bloody saint.
    > I think an apology is called for.


    Dave. Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. I was starting to
    wonder if I *was* a troll for a minute. ;-)

    Saying that though, I think Chris was responding to and has
    Meat Plow, not myself.

    --
    "When I wake up in the morning, I just can't get started until I've had
    that first, piping hot pot of coffee. Oh, I've tried other enemas..."

  3. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-06-25, Moog wrote:
    > davesurrey illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >
    >>
    >>>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.
    >>>
    >>> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>>
    >>> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >>> keep re-posting it.
    >>>
    >>> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Chris,
    >> I hope you didn't mean this about Moog, as no sane person who has read
    >> this group for a while could possibly call him a troll. If anyone has
    >> kept a sane head with a bit of humour when things have got heated it's
    >> Moog. And he has always been around to give good advice in a non-
    >> confrontational way.
    >> Good God. Compared with a lot of the folk here he's a bloody saint.
    >> I think an apology is called for.

    >
    > Dave. Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. I was starting to
    > wonder if I *was* a troll for a minute. ;-)
    >
    > Saying that though, I think Chris was responding to and has
    > Meat Plow, not myself.


    Indeed.

    I'm sorry if I gave any other impression.


    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, author |
    Shell Scripting Recipes: | My code in this post, if any,
    A Problem-Solution Approach | is released under the
    2005, Apress | GNU General Public Licence

  4. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine


    "Moog" wrote in message
    news:slrng65hkl.87i.efcmoog@hardy.invalid...
    > davesurrey illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >
    >>
    >>>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.
    >>>
    >>> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>>
    >>> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >>> keep re-posting it.
    >>>
    >>> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Chris,
    >> I hope you didn't mean this about Moog, as no sane person who has read
    >> this group for a while could possibly call him a troll. If anyone has
    >> kept a sane head with a bit of humour when things have got heated it's
    >> Moog. And he has always been around to give good advice in a non-
    >> confrontational way.
    >> Good God. Compared with a lot of the folk here he's a bloody saint.
    >> I think an apology is called for.

    >
    > Dave. Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. I was starting to
    > wonder if I *was* a troll for a minute. ;-)
    >
    > Saying that though, I think Chris was responding to and has
    > Meat Plow, not myself.
    >

    No probs.
    Dave



  5. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Chris F.A. Johnson illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    > On 2008-06-25, Moog wrote:
    >> davesurrey illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>>>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>>>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.
    >>>>
    >>>> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>>>
    >>>> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >>>> keep re-posting it.
    >>>>
    >>>> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Chris,
    >>> I hope you didn't mean this about Moog, as no sane person who has read
    >>> this group for a while could possibly call him a troll. If anyone has
    >>> kept a sane head with a bit of humour when things have got heated it's
    >>> Moog. And he has always been around to give good advice in a non-
    >>> confrontational way.
    >>> Good God. Compared with a lot of the folk here he's a bloody saint.
    >>> I think an apology is called for.

    >>
    >> Dave. Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated. I was starting to
    >> wonder if I *was* a troll for a minute. ;-)
    >>
    >> Saying that though, I think Chris was responding to and has
    >> Meat Plow, not myself.

    >
    > Indeed.
    >
    > I'm sorry if I gave any other impression.


    No problem. However, I understood you perfectly.


    --
    "So I was getting into my car, and this bloke says to me "Can you give
    me a lift?" I said "Sure, you look great, the world's your oyster, go
    for it.'" - Tim Vine

  6. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:33:23 +0000, davesurrey wrote:

    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:15:46 +0000, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    >
    >> On 2008-06-25, Meat Plow wrote:
    >>> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:55:54 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >>>> Meat Plow illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Too much noise.
    >>>
    >>> Oooooooooooooooohhhh the IRONY.
    >>>
    >>>> Not enough substance from this particular poster.
    >>>
    >>> At least my substance is not to berate and embarrass new posters
    >>> because they don't know what you know.
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Ah what the matter? Don't like hearing the truth?
    >>>
    >>> Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    >>> shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So
    >>> you don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.

    >>
    >> We know that. We don't need you to keep telling us.
    >>
    >> We have Dan C killfiled and wouldn't see his rubbish if you didn't
    >> keep re-posting it.
    >>
    >> Your own signal-to-noise ration is little better than Dan C's.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Chris,
    > I hope you didn't mean this about Moog, as no sane person who has read
    > this group for a while could possibly call him a troll. If anyone has kept
    > a sane head with a bit of humour when things have got heated it's Moog.
    > And he has always been around to give good advice in a non-
    > confrontational way.
    > Good God. Compared with a lot of the folk here he's a bloody saint. I
    > think an apology is called for.


    Moog trolls. He's an antagonist. I've been reading his crud long enough to
    know where he is coming from. He needs to come down off that mightier than
    thow pedestal he's perched himself atop as it has no business in a group
    frequented by new Ubuntu users. As far as the plonkers, I really don't
    give a flying **** who reads me and who doesn't so it doesn't empower
    anyone to do so. People fear the truth about themselves and like to hide
    their head in the sand but my posts still get posted.




  7. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:16:39 +0000, davesurrey wrote:

    >>> I hope you didn't mean this about Moog,


    >> Of course not. See the top attribution, which refers to the message I
    >> was responding to.


    > Whatever you mean by "see the top attribution" the fact is you did say
    > "we know that" in reply to a diatribe against two folk including Moog.
    > However, glad to hear you didn't mean it.


    Looks like you need some reading comprehension lessons. Did you have to
    repeat 4th grade?


    --
    "Bother!" said Pooh, as he wondered why he bothered to answer.


  8. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On Wednesday 25 Jun 2008 21:09 Meat Plow licked a pencil and jotted:

    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:55:54 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >
    >> Meat Plow illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Too much noise.

    >
    > Oooooooooooooooohhhh the IRONY.
    >
    >> Not enough substance from this particular poster.

    >
    > At least my substance is not to berate and embarrass new posters
    > because they don't know what you know.
    >
    >>

    >
    > Ah what the matter? Don't like hearing the truth?
    >
    > Moog and Dan C both troll .ubuntu. Both have HUGE chips on their
    > shoulders. Both are petulant hypocrites. Both pick on new posters. So you
    > don't see it but you already know who you are so it doesn't matter.


    Have to take you to task about Moog. He was the most regularly helpful
    poster to many (most) of my n00b questions.

    You are talking out of your arse.

    David
    --
    Knowledge is of two kinds: we know a subject ourselves, or we know where we
    can find information upon it. (Samuel Johnson)
    Only the mediocre are always at their best. (Jean Giraudoux)
    (Reply address genuine - Checked occasionally)

  9. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Baldylocks-Ubuntu illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

    >
    > Have to take you to task about Moog. He was the most regularly helpful
    > poster to many (most) of my n00b questions.
    >
    > You are talking out of your arse.


    Thanks David.

    --
    People always ask me, "Where were you when Kennedy was shot?" Well, I
    don't have an alibi." ~ Emo Philips

  10. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Dan C wrote:

    > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:29:36 +1000, Julian Cann wrote:
    >
    >> Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any Linux distro, I am sure they
    >> are fantastic at what they do, but per-lease, don't pretend the public
    >> will ever take them up.

    >
    >
    > ___________________
    > /| /| | |
    > ||__|| | Please do |
    > / O O\__ NOT |
    > / \ feed the |
    > / \ \ trolls |
    > / _ \ \ ______________|
    > / |\____\ \ ||
    > / | | | |\____/ ||
    > / \|_|_|/ \ __||
    > / / \ |____| ||
    > / | | /| | --|
    > | | |// |____ --|
    > * _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
    > *-- _--\ _ \ // |
    > / _ \\ _ // | /
    > * / \_ /- | - | |
    > * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________
    >
    >
    >


    Good enough for me...


    --

    Jerry McBride (jmcbride@mail-on.us)

  11. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    My mother is 70 years young and I could not keep Windows XP running for her
    without having viruses, popups, and constant updates causing her confusion.
    I installed Linux (Linspire 5.0) and she has no problems with being on the
    internet now. No virus, popups and constant updates.
    I'm hoping to update her to a newer version of Linux soon.



    Jerry McBride wrote:

    > Dan C wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:29:36 +1000, Julian Cann wrote:
    >>
    >>> Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any Linux distro, I am sure they
    >>> are fantastic at what they do, but per-lease, don't pretend the public
    >>> will ever take them up.

    >>
    >>
    >> ___________________
    >> /| /| | |
    >> ||__|| | Please do |
    >> / O O\__ NOT |
    >> / \ feed the |
    >> / \ \ trolls |
    >> / _ \ \ ______________|
    >> / |\____\ \ ||
    >> / | | | |\____/ ||
    >> / \|_|_|/ \ __||
    >> / / \ |____| ||
    >> / | | /| | --|
    >> | | |// |____ --|
    >> * _ | |_|_|_| | \-/
    >> *-- _--\ _ \ // |
    >> / _ \\ _ // | /
    >> * / \_ /- | - | |
    >> * ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c____________
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Good enough for me...
    >
    >



  12. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Julian Cann wrote:
    > Whenever I read a Linux newbie (like me) complain about the need to use
    > command line, every man and his dog comes out of the woodwork to say how
    > secure the system is and how they must learn how it all works in order
    > to run it properly.
    > Now I really believe that this is true.
    > I also believe that this is just fine, and suits many people who love to
    > get down and dirty with there Op. Sys. and learn a huge amount of code.
    >
    > I guess I take issue with the development of fancy GUI's and the
    > pretence that these distros can actually be used by mum and dad. At
    > first sight they appear to be as user friendly as that "other" OS, but
    > in reality are never going to tread that territory.
    >
    > Giving people 95% GUI is worse than giving them none, because it can
    > still only be functional if you are a command line aficionado, and want
    > to learn a whole new language.
    >
    > Like many Windows people I have become curious about the Linux
    > phenomenon and have spent weeks with first Ubuntu 7.10/8.04, and more
    > recently Mandriva 2008...both running under VirtualBox.
    > They install beautifully and look fantastic. Internet configs itself,
    > email is a breeze...hey this is really cool.
    >
    > Then I try to play an audio CD...!
    >
    > Initially Ubuntu popped it onto the desktop and fired up a CD
    > player...perfect. Unfortunately it's never done it again since. It has
    > also never done it ever with Mandriva.
    > OK I'll Google a fix. Lots and lots of command line ways to achieve my
    > end, and I've tried so many of them my head is
    > spinning...permissions...mounting/unmounting...attached folders etc.
    > None have worked ever, and each helpful person gives different code to
    > the last one..!
    >
    > You see it's that 5% that will never allow mum & dad access to these
    > OS's.
    >
    > Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking any Linux distro, I am sure they
    > are fantastic at what they do, but per-lease, don't pretend the public
    > will ever take them up.
    >
    > So why bother with a GUI? Pure deception if you ask me. Leave it all on
    > the terminal and let the code boys have their fun. Just stop pretending
    > it will compete with Windows.
    >
    > I can easily play a CD under DOS...Windows...OS/2...eCS...you name it,
    > but Linux?
    >
    > I hope the people who sell these distros pre-installed onto laptops
    > point this out to their prospective buyers? They could be very pissed
    > off, otherwise.
    >
    > regards
    >


    People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution to so
    many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the terminal
    command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    front-end for Chrissake.

  13. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Ben wrote:

    > People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution to
    > so many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the
    > like. You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going
    > to have to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no
    > point in Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you
    > the terminal command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a
    > general purpose application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled
    > entirely from a GUI frontend (I'm not including things like compiling
    > programs in general purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad
    > would use) and therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw
    > command line solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly,
    > just use a front-end for Chrissake.



    Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, I and the others who know
    the power of the CLI, are not your mum and dad?

    Maybe some of us do not even know of any GUI method for many maintenance
    problems.

    There is a place and many points for using the CLI just like there is a
    place for the GUI. You have not yet been using Unix/Linux long enough to
    make such statements.

    So, if you want someone else to fix your problem, you take their advice,
    say "thanks" and then go do your own thing.

    Or stop asking for help.

    Or were you? Maybe just trolling for a rebuttal?


    --
    John

    No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

    The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

  14. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >
    > People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution to so
    > many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    > You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    > to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    > Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the terminal
    > command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    > application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    > frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    > purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    > therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    > solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    > front-end for Chrissake.


    That's the hard way to give a simple answer...

    For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...

    Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.

    Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:

    sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc

    Type your user password, and allow it to run.

    Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?

    Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    tool.

    This isn't windows.


    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

  15. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:
    > On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >
    >> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution to so
    >> many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    >> You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    >> to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    >> Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the terminal
    >> command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    >> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    >> frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    >> purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    >> therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    >> solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    >> front-end for Chrissake.
    >>

    >
    > That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    >
    > For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >
    > Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    > Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    > and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    > vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    > through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.
    >
    > Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >
    > sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >
    > Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    >
    > Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    > end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    >
    > Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    > install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    > or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    > tool.
    >
    > This isn't windows.



    Good post, Joe.

    Ben apparently only understands what is in front of him, without
    considering what others prefer. Can't see the trees for the forest, eh?

    For instance, you gave a good "step-by-step" in Option #1 for a normal
    Ubuntu GNOME desktop environment, which Ben is likely using since he
    mentions Synaptic.

    However Ben may not realize even your Option #1 is not common for a
    Kubuntu user, who may prefer Adept if using KDE.

    So another option must be provided for that possibility.

    Then there are the Xubuntu users, and those using other slimmer desktop
    environments and desktop managers. How many Option #1s would Ben like to
    see?

    One simple "apt-get install so-and-so-program" covers everything,
    regardless what the inquiring user uses. It gets programs installed for
    mum and dad much easier -- and quicker -- than using all the bells,
    whistles and other GUI glitz that is useful for surfing, photo editing, etc.

    Even if the user isn't using Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu, but one of the
    following:

    AbulÉdu, Adamantix, Amber, ANTEMIUM, Arabbix, ASLinux, Auditor,
    Augustux, B2D, BeatrIX, BEERnix, Biadix, BIG LINUX, Bioknoppix,
    BlackRhino, Bluewall, Bonzai, BrlSpeak, Càtix, Clusterix,
    ClusterKNOPPIX, Condorux, Damn Small, Danix, DeadCD, Debian, DebXPde,
    Defender, Demudi, Dizinha, Edubuntu, eduKnoppix, ERPOSS, ESware,
    Euronode, Evinux, FAMELIX, Feather, Flonix, FoRK, Freeduc, Freeduc-Sup,
    GEOLivre, Gibraltar, GNIX, Gnoppix, gnuLinEx, GNUstep, grml, Guadalinex,
    Helix, Hikarunix, Hiweed, Impi, IndLinux, INSERT, Julex, K-DEMar,
    Kaella, Kalango, KANOTIX, Kinneret, KlusTriX, knopILS, Knoppel, Knoppix,
    Knoppix 64, Knoppix STD, KnoppiXMAME, KnoppMyth, KnoSciences, Kurumin,
    LAMPPIX, L.A.S., Libranet, LIIS, LinEspa, Linspire, Linuxin, Livux,
    LLGP, Loco, Luinux, Luit, MAX, Medialinux, MEPIS, MIKO GNYO, MoLinux,
    Morphix, Munjoy, Mythbuntu, Nature's, NordisKnoppix, OGo Knoppix,
    Omoikane, Oralux, Overclockix, PaiPix, ParallelKnoppix, Parsix,
    Pequelin, Penguin Sleuth, PHLAK, Pilot, Progeny, Quantian, Rays,
    ROSLIMS, Salvare, Santa Fe, Skolelinux, Slavix, Slix, Slo-Tech, Soyombo,
    SphinxOS, SULIX, Tablix, Tilix, TupiServer, UbuntuCE, UbuntuME, Ubuntu
    Studio, UserLinux, WHoppiX, Xarnoppix, X-evian, Xfld, Xandros, Zen,
    ZoneCD, Zopix, ....

    The Fink project has ported APT to Mac OS X for some of its own package
    management tasks, and APT is also available in OpenSolaris (included in
    Nexenta OS distribution).

    I'm sure there are programs, like Alien, to convert other package
    systems to DEB. From native package managers like RPM, up2date, apt4rpm,
    urpmi, YUM, YaST, ipkg, pkgutils, PISI, Emerge, Portage, LSB, Solaris
    ..pkg, Stampede .slp, Slackware .tgz slapt-get, slackpkg and swaret,
    Pacman, .... Plus there's APT-RPM (now SPM) for ALT, Ark, ASP, CLE,
    Conectiva, Lorma, PLD, Vine, Yellow Dog.

    So we could add those, plus the following:

    ADIOS, Ankur Bangla, APODIO, Asianux, Aurora, Aurox, Ayrsoft, Basilisk,
    Bayanihan, Berry, BioBrew, blackPanther, BLAG, Boten, Caixa Magica,
    cAos, CCux, CentOS, Chinese 2000, ClarkConnect, Cobind, Cool, Cosix,
    CPUBuilders, Eadem, EduLinux, ELX, EnGarde, e-smith, Fedora, Fermi, FoX,
    Freedows, FTOSX, Gelecek, Haansoft, Hakin9, Hancom, Happy Mac, Haydar,
    HispaFuentes, HKLPG, Holon, IDMS, Ignalum, K12LTSP, kmLinux, Kore, KRUD,
    Linare, Lineox, Linpus, Linux+, LinuxConsole, LINUXO, LinuxTLE, Linux
    XP, Lorma, Lycoris, Magic, Mandows, Mandrake, MCNLive, Media Lab,
    Miracle, MIZI, Momonga, MSC.Linux, Novell, NuxOne, Octoz, OpenDesktop,
    OpenNA, OpenSLS, Openwall, PCLinuxOS, Peanut, PHP Sol, Pie Box, Plan-B,
    PLD, QiLinux, Red Flag, Red Hat, redWall, Resala, Rocks Cluster, SAM,
    Scientific, SCO, SOT, StartCom, Sun JDS, SUSE, Tao, Tech, TFM, Thiz,
    tinysofa, Trustix, Turbolinux, Turkix, vnlinuxCD, Voodoo, White Box,
    WOW, X/OS, Xteam, Yoper, YourESale, AL-AMLUG, Arch, AUSTRUMI, BearOps,
    Blin, Buffalo, Burapha, College, CRUX, DARKSTAR, Definity, DeLi, Devil,
    DNALinux, Drinou, Flash, Freepia, Frugalware, gNOX, GoblinX, GoboLinux,
    JoLinux, Litrix, LiveCD Router, Minislack, Netwosix, OpenLab, Phayoune,
    Plamo, Project dEv, Puppy, RIP, ROOT, RUNT, Sentinix, Slackware, SLAX,
    STUX, Vector, Gentoo, Gentoox, iBox, Jollix, Knopperdisk, Navyn OS,
    Pardus, Shark, SystemRescue, Ututo, Vidalinux, ZerahStar, ....

    The CLI vs. GUI question then becomes whether you want to mouse around
    all day looking for a menu, or do you want to install software? ;-)

    --
    John

    No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

    The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

  16. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    John F. Morse wrote:
    > Joe wrote:
    >> On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >>
    >>> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a
    >>> solution to so many things and just tell them how to do it in
    >>> Synaptic and the like. You're right, there's no point in having a
    >>> GUI if you're going to have to resort to the command line every 5
    >>> seconds. There's also no point in Ubuntu having Synaptic if
    >>> people are just going to give you the terminal command for
    >>> installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    >>> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a
    >>> GUI frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in
    >>> general purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would
    >>> use) and therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw
    >>> command line solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit
    >>> silly, just use a front-end for Chrissake.
    >>>

    >>
    >> That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    >>
    >> For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >>
    >> Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    >> Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll
    >> down and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also,
    >> select vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and
    >> continue through the prompts to allow the selections to be
    >> installed.
    >>
    >> Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >>
    >> sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >>
    >> Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    >>
    >> Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    >> end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    >>
    >> Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    >> install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install
    >> apps or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more
    >> efficient tool.
    >>
    >> This isn't windows.

    >
    >
    > Good post, Joe.
    >
    > Ben apparently only understands what is in front of him, without
    > considering what others prefer. Can't see the trees for the forest,
    > eh?


    Hey, that's /exactly/ what happens to me @ cli!

    >> For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >>
    >> Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    >> Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll
    >> down and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also,
    >> select vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and
    >> continue through the prompts to allow the selections to be
    >> installed.
    >>
    >> Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >>
    >> sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >>


    From Synaptic to cli with Add/Remove in between, my own wide fingers and
    narrow memory aside, if not for Add/Remove, there *are* valid pros for
    Synaptic

    By default, Synaptic teaches *where to start searching* and the
    complexity-simplicity of dependencies, plus an early and easy
    acclimatisation to administrative options I would have missed had I
    been spoon fed at cli.

    Sans the opinion expressed by the OP, must confess I have felt
    intimidated the way some people have thrown command lines at me. and
    even if wrong, it's too easy to feel they want to keep the why to
    themselves while deigning to grant me the how.

    Gradually, I've learned to deeply appreciate those who can give rapid
    cli solutions for a unique problem. However I started with a 1k Sinclair
    and cassette recorder and know less now than I did then so didn't
    migrate as a virgin from microsoft.

    Thanks for the opportunity to have my say.

    Bob

    >
    > For instance, you gave a good "step-by-step" in Option #1 for a
    > normal Ubuntu GNOME desktop environment, which Ben is likely using
    > since he mentions Synaptic.
    >
    > However Ben may not realize even your Option #1 is not common for a
    > Kubuntu user, who may prefer Adept if using KDE.
    >
    > So another option must be provided for that possibility.
    >
    > Then there are the Xubuntu users, and those using other slimmer
    > desktop environments and desktop managers. How many Option #1s would
    > Ben like to see?
    >
    > One simple "apt-get install so-and-so-program" covers everything,
    > regardless what the inquiring user uses. It gets programs installed
    > for mum and dad much easier -- and quicker -- than using all the
    > bells, whistles and other GUI glitz that is useful for surfing, photo
    > editing, etc.
    >
    > Even if the user isn't using Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu, but one of the
    > following:
    >
    > AbulÉdu, Adamantix, Amber, ANTEMIUM, Arabbix, ASLinux, Auditor,
    > Augustux, B2D, BeatrIX, BEERnix, Biadix, BIG LINUX, Bioknoppix,
    > BlackRhino, Bluewall, Bonzai, BrlSpeak, Càtix, Clusterix,
    > ClusterKNOPPIX, Condorux, Damn Small, Danix, DeadCD, Debian, DebXPde,
    > Defender, Demudi, Dizinha, Edubuntu, eduKnoppix, ERPOSS, ESware,
    > Euronode, Evinux, FAMELIX, Feather, Flonix, FoRK, Freeduc,
    > Freeduc-Sup, GEOLivre, Gibraltar, GNIX, Gnoppix, gnuLinEx, GNUstep,
    > grml, Guadalinex, Helix, Hikarunix, Hiweed, Impi, IndLinux, INSERT,
    > Julex, K-DEMar, Kaella, Kalango, KANOTIX, Kinneret, KlusTriX,
    > knopILS, Knoppel, Knoppix, Knoppix 64, Knoppix STD, KnoppiXMAME,
    > KnoppMyth, KnoSciences, Kurumin, LAMPPIX, L.A.S., Libranet, LIIS,
    > LinEspa, Linspire, Linuxin, Livux, LLGP, Loco, Luinux, Luit, MAX,
    > Medialinux, MEPIS, MIKO GNYO, MoLinux, Morphix, Munjoy, Mythbuntu,
    > Nature's, NordisKnoppix, OGo Knoppix, Omoikane, Oralux, Overclockix,
    > PaiPix, ParallelKnoppix, Parsix, Pequelin, Penguin Sleuth, PHLAK,
    > Pilot, Progeny, Quantian, Rays, ROSLIMS, Salvare, Santa Fe,
    > Skolelinux, Slavix, Slix, Slo-Tech, Soyombo, SphinxOS, SULIX, Tablix,
    > Tilix, TupiServer, UbuntuCE, UbuntuME, Ubuntu Studio, UserLinux,
    > WHoppiX, Xarnoppix, X-evian, Xfld, Xandros, Zen, ZoneCD, Zopix, ....
    >
    > The Fink project has ported APT to Mac OS X for some of its own
    > package management tasks, and APT is also available in OpenSolaris
    > (included in Nexenta OS distribution).
    >
    > I'm sure there are programs, like Alien, to convert other package
    > systems to DEB. From native package managers like RPM, up2date,
    > apt4rpm, urpmi, YUM, YaST, ipkg, pkgutils, PISI, Emerge, Portage,
    > LSB, Solaris ..pkg, Stampede .slp, Slackware .tgz slapt-get, slackpkg
    > and swaret, Pacman, .... Plus there's APT-RPM (now SPM) for ALT, Ark,
    > ASP, CLE, Conectiva, Lorma, PLD, Vine, Yellow Dog.
    >
    > So we could add those, plus the following:
    >
    > ADIOS, Ankur Bangla, APODIO, Asianux, Aurora, Aurox, Ayrsoft,
    > Basilisk, Bayanihan, Berry, BioBrew, blackPanther, BLAG, Boten, Caixa
    > Magica, cAos, CCux, CentOS, Chinese 2000, ClarkConnect, Cobind, Cool,
    > Cosix, CPUBuilders, Eadem, EduLinux, ELX, EnGarde, e-smith, Fedora,
    > Fermi, FoX, Freedows, FTOSX, Gelecek, Haansoft, Hakin9, Hancom, Happy
    > Mac, Haydar, HispaFuentes, HKLPG, Holon, IDMS, Ignalum, K12LTSP,
    > kmLinux, Kore, KRUD, Linare, Lineox, Linpus, Linux+, LinuxConsole,
    > LINUXO, LinuxTLE, Linux XP, Lorma, Lycoris, Magic, Mandows, Mandrake,
    > MCNLive, Media Lab, Miracle, MIZI, Momonga, MSC.Linux, Novell,
    > NuxOne, Octoz, OpenDesktop, OpenNA, OpenSLS, Openwall, PCLinuxOS,
    > Peanut, PHP Sol, Pie Box, Plan-B, PLD, QiLinux, Red Flag, Red Hat,
    > redWall, Resala, Rocks Cluster, SAM, Scientific, SCO, SOT, StartCom,
    > Sun JDS, SUSE, Tao, Tech, TFM, Thiz, tinysofa, Trustix, Turbolinux,
    > Turkix, vnlinuxCD, Voodoo, White Box, WOW, X/OS, Xteam, Yoper,
    > YourESale, AL-AMLUG, Arch, AUSTRUMI, BearOps, Blin, Buffalo, Burapha,
    > College, CRUX, DARKSTAR, Definity, DeLi, Devil, DNALinux, Drinou,
    > Flash, Freepia, Frugalware, gNOX, GoblinX, GoboLinux, JoLinux,
    > Litrix, LiveCD Router, Minislack, Netwosix, OpenLab, Phayoune, Plamo,
    > Project dEv, Puppy, RIP, ROOT, RUNT, Sentinix, Slackware, SLAX, STUX,
    > Vector, Gentoo, Gentoox, iBox, Jollix, Knopperdisk, Navyn OS, Pardus,
    > Shark, SystemRescue, Ututo, Vidalinux, ZerahStar, ....
    >
    > The CLI vs. GUI question then becomes whether you want to mouse
    > around all day looking for a menu, or do you want to install
    > software? ;-)
    >


  17. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Joe wrote:

    > On 2008-07-12, Ben wrote:
    >>
    >> People need to stop throwing the command line around as a solution to so
    >> many things and just tell them how to do it in Synaptic and the like.
    >> You're right, there's no point in having a GUI if you're going to have
    >> to resort to the command line every 5 seconds. There's also no point in
    >> Ubuntu having Synaptic if people are just going to give you the terminal
    >> command for installing everything. I haven't yet seen a general purpose
    >> application in Ubuntu which can't be controlled entirely from a GUI
    >> frontend (I'm not including things like compiling programs in general
    >> purpose, I'm just talking about stuff mum and dad would use) and
    >> therefore, I think the way a lot of Ubuntu users throw command line
    >> solutions to everything in people's faces is a bit silly, just use a
    >> front-end for Chrissake.

    >
    > That's the hard way to give a simple answer...
    >
    > For instance, you come here and ask how to install vlc...
    >
    > Option 1: Open System | Administration | Synaptic Package Manager.
    > Click search and type vlc in the search box, hit enter. Scroll down
    > and right-click on vlc, click "Mark for Installation". Also, select
    > vlc-plugin-pulse and mozilla-plugin-vlc. Click "Apply", and continue
    > through the prompts to allow the selections to be installed.
    >
    > Option 2: Open a terminal, copy and paste the following:
    >
    > sudo apt-get install vlc vlc-plugin-pulse mozilla-plugin-vlc
    >
    > Type your user password, and allow it to run.
    >
    > Option 2 is easier to type, and much easier to follow for the
    > end-user, so why would I bother typing out the first load of crap?
    >
    > Synaptic is fine for searching for packages, and you can easily
    > install them from there. But if I am helping someone to install apps
    > or troubleshoot a problem, the command line is a much more efficient
    > tool.
    >
    > This isn't windows.
    >
    >


    Well finding what is available is part of the problem, certainly. I can
    use either option, but I go with Synaptic because I'm a poor speller and I
    don't know all the programs that are available. With Synaptic, I just have
    to point and click and I don't have to memorise the spellings of program
    names or even remember what they are if there were a place to find them.
    It's all laid out in front of me. I used to be a senior
    programmer-analyst, but I'm getting lazy in my old age. There are lots of
    Linux users who were never programmers and they also want to point and
    click. It's a very useful tool, and the GUI is a much better interface for
    most people.

    --
    Peace,
    Fred
    (Remove FFFf from my email address to reply by email).

  18. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine


    There are really two classes of computer users, those who know what they're
    doing (for the most part), and those that don't (for the most part). The
    one needs the CLI if they're going to make full use of the OS and speed work
    and maintenance. The other have a limited number of demands, that can be
    counted on one hand -- mainly internet applications, multimedia, printing.
    There is liable to be very little maintenance performed manually, other than
    what is built into the system.

    For this reason, I believe Linux is the better OS for Mom & Dad, not to
    mention grandpa and grandma, because the whole circle of hell know as
    malware is entirely sidestepped. Their computers will not slow to a halt every
    3 weeks from spyware nececitating the kid to come over and *fix Dad's
    computer.*

    If you're going to give a computer to your folks, you'd have to be cruel to
    give them a Windows machine, IMO.

    *R* *H*

    --
    "His one secret thought, became like a chain, binding down his spirit, and,
    like a serpent, gnawing into his heart; and he was transformed into a sad
    and downcast, yet irritable man."

    Nathaniel Hawthorne, "Roger Malvin's Burial"

  19. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    Rockinghorse Winner wrote:

    >
    > There are really two classes of computer users, those who know what
    > they're
    > doing (for the most part), and those that don't (for the most part). The
    > one needs the CLI if they're going to make full use of the OS and speed
    > work
    > and maintenance. The other have a limited number of demands, that can be
    > counted on one hand -- mainly internet applications, multimedia, printing.
    > There is liable to be very little maintenance performed manually, other
    > than what is built into the system.
    >
    > For this reason, I believe Linux is the better OS for Mom & Dad, not to
    > mention grandpa and grandma, because the whole circle of hell know as
    > malware is entirely sidestepped. Their computers will not slow to a halt
    > every 3 weeks from spyware nececitating the kid to come over and *fix
    > Dad's computer.*
    >
    > If you're going to give a computer to your folks, you'd have to be cruel
    > to give them a Windows machine, IMO.
    >
    > *R* *H*
    >

    I changed my Mom (72 years old) over from Windows XP to Linspire years ago
    and eliminated viruses, mailware and pop-up problems she constantly had.
    She has none of those problems and has not need Windows for years.

  20. Re: Mum & Dad will never use a Linux machine

    On 2008-07-13, Fred wrote:
    >
    > Well finding what is available is part of the problem, certainly. I can
    > use either option, but I go with Synaptic because I'm a poor speller and I
    > don't know all the programs that are available. With Synaptic, I just have
    > to point and click and I don't have to memorise the spellings of program
    > names or even remember what they are if there were a place to find them.
    > It's all laid out in front of me. I used to be a senior
    > programmer-analyst, but I'm getting lazy in my old age. There are lots of
    > Linux users who were never programmers and they also want to point and
    > click. It's a very useful tool, and the GUI is a much better interface for
    > most people.
    >


    Like I said, Synaptic is fine if YOU are browsing around, trying to
    find things to install. But if you are on a forum or newsgroup,
    asking for an answer, the cli version of it is both easier to give,
    and easier to follow.

    You don't need to be able to spell, and your fingers can be as fat as
    Moog's. All you need to do is highlight, cut and paste. You will
    then have your problem solved.

    I use Synaptic all the time. It is good when I know what I want to
    do, but not the package I need to do it. But if I already know what I
    want, or if someone is telling me what to install, the command line
    solves it best.

    With Linux, there is no one right answer. Many people can have the
    same issue and find various ways to fix it. And if you ask for help,
    you should appreciate that whoever helps you is taking their time and
    sharing their knowledge and experience, rather than doing like Ben,
    and complaining about the form of the answer...


    --
    Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
    joe at hits - buffalo dot com
    "Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
    time..." - Danny, American History X

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