Wes Groleau wrote:
> John F. Morse wrote:
>> I want you to learn how and where to find information, instead of
>> relying on spoon-feeding, which may be something you don't like.
>
> A commendable goal/attitude. However, I'm sure
> you won't deny that the only motive of many who
> post "RTFM" and the like is merely to insult.
>


Yes I agree.

I see three possible motives:

1. The troll, who logically cannot be explained.

2. The impatient, perhaps busy person, who likes to help, but quickly
tires of the student's perceived inability to grasp what is offered.

3. Those who have learned to control the above problems.

I would consider myself somewhere in the 2-3 classification. Just where
would depend from which side of the bed I arose, the bills I received in
the mail that day, and all kinds of other calamities. ;-)

--
John

No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

Todd wrote:
> "John F. Morse" wrote:
>
>> Nobody has said they didn't want you here. I made a statement that if
>> you liked so-and-so on Windows better, then why aren't you using Windows.
>
> Vista.
>
> Actually, I like Windows XP, but I don't like Bill Gates, and I
> despise Microsoft.
>
> I hoped OS2 would take off, but I knew, especially when they had to
> sell it as OS2 *for Windows*, that it was doomed.
>
>
I had OS/2 working nicely in 1995, along with an early Linux, and DOS
with windows 3.1. Then I made the mistake of putting a windows 95 CD in
my computer and it ran a scandisk /f on all my drives and killed about a
years worth of work and data. I almost frisbeed the CD into a wall but
managed to exchange it for a Warp 4 CD, but that version of OS/2 was
just the death throes, last gasp, for Os/2.
That was the day when I truly started hating the evil empire and Bill Gates.
They may have suckered corporations into buying Vista, but after trying
to use it, how many have quietly gone back to XP?
The command line was a great thing with DOS, and Linux has more stuff to
play with, so I am happy learning all the little things like sudo
apt-???? whatever but also learning I can commit computer suicide.
The upside is that even my mistakes aren't as bad as what windows does
to me sometimes.
How many windows users even know there is a command line with FTP,
IPCONFIG, etc.., available to them?
I think we are stuck with GUI's, but they should be on top of Linux, and
not be the operating system like windows. Without graphics we could all
be happy with 300 baud modems. That's about 240 words per minute in
typing terms, so very adequate for actual text communications.
Ramble mode off.
Bill Baka

John F. Morse wrote:
> Wes Groleau wrote:
>> John F. Morse wrote:
>>> I want you to learn how and where to find information, instead of
>>> relying on spoon-feeding, which may be something you don't like.
>>
>> A commendable goal/attitude. However, I'm sure
>> you won't deny that the only motive of many who
>> post "RTFM" and the like is merely to insult.
>>
>
>
> Yes I agree.
>
> I see three possible motives:
>
> 1. The troll, who logically cannot be explained.

Teenager with too much time?
>
> 2. The impatient, perhaps busy person, who likes to help, but quickly
> tires of the student's perceived inability to grasp what is offered.

There is also the fact that computers are so pervasive that you may have
posts ranging from the Forrest Gump level to the occasional Einstein type.
>
> 3. Those who have learned to control the above problems.
>
> I would consider myself somewhere in the 2-3 classification. Just where
> would depend from which side of the bed I arose, the bills I received in
> the mail that day, and all kinds of other calamities. ;-)
>
Very true for me too. As one of the token 'adults' here (only 59.9) I
try not to waste time on flaming and tolerate most of what comes and
goes. What I got out of college wasn't so much memorizing but more of a
learn where to look for an answer. A legitimate question can usually be
answered here and save the poster from wasting hours flailing around and
not knowing where to look.
Telling someone to RTFM is an attitude taken by those with too high an
opinion of themselves (usually not justified).
Bill Baka

Bill wrote:
> Todd wrote:
>> "John F. Morse" wrote:
>>
>> I hoped OS2 would take off, but I knew, especially when they had to
>> sell it as OS2 *for Windows*, that it was doomed.

Heh..

>>
>>
> I had OS/2 working nicely in 1995, along with an early Linux, and DOS
> with windows 3.1.

Me too.....didn't bother with the Windows side though.

> Then I made the mistake of putting a windows 95 CD in
> my computer and it ran a scandisk /f on all my drives and killed about a
> years worth of work and data. I almost frisbeed the CD into a wall but

OUCH!!

> How many windows users even know there is a command line with FTP,
> IPCONFIG, etc.., available to them?

IMHO, that may be changing slightly. Seems a lot of the fixes being put
forth these days, concern at least some commandline operations (at least
that's what I am seeing in various Windows related newsgroups).

> I think we are stuck with GUI's, but they should be on top of Linux, and
> not be the operating system like windows. Without graphics we could all
> be happy with 300 baud modems. That's about 240 words per minute in
> typing terms, so very adequate for actual text communications.

I remember them rascals.....rather watch paint dry to tell ya the truth! :-)

propman wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>> Todd wrote:
>>> "John F. Morse" wrote:
>>>
>>> I hoped OS2 would take off, but I knew, especially when they had to
>>> sell it as OS2 *for Windows*, that it was doomed.
>
> Heh..
>
>>>
>>>
>> I had OS/2 working nicely in 1995, along with an early Linux, and DOS
>> with windows 3.1.
>
> Me too.....didn't bother with the Windows side though.
>
>> Then I made the mistake of putting a windows 95 CD in my computer and
>> it ran a scandisk /f on all my drives and killed about a years worth
>> of work and data. I almost frisbeed the CD into a wall but
>
> OUCH!!
>
>> How many windows users even know there is a command line with FTP,
>> IPCONFIG, etc.., available to them?
>
> IMHO, that may be changing slightly. Seems a lot of the fixes being put
> forth these days, concern at least some commandline operations (at least
> that's what I am seeing in various Windows related newsgroups).
>
>> I think we are stuck with GUI's, but they should be on top of Linux,
>> and not be the operating system like windows. Without graphics we
>> could all be happy with 300 baud modems. That's about 240 words per
>> minute in typing terms, so very adequate for actual text communications.
>
> I remember them rascals.....rather watch paint dry to tell ya the truth!
> :-)
>
>
Think 1978. I brought home an acoustic modem terminal to dial the
mainframe at work to get all text, all green, and do some work at home
in between playing the Star Trek game against the mainframe.
My wife got hooked on chasing Klingons.
Bill Baka

"propman" wrote in message
news:xNl%j.318$i74.165@edtnps91...
> Bill wrote:
>> Todd wrote:
>>> "John F. Morse" wrote:
>>>
>>> I hoped OS2 would take off, but I knew, especially when they had to
>>> sell it as OS2 *for Windows*, that it was doomed.
>
> Heh..
>
>>>
>>>
>> I had OS/2 working nicely in 1995, along with an early Linux, and DOS
>> with windows 3.1.
>
> Me too.....didn't bother with the Windows side though.
>
>> Then I made the mistake of putting a windows 95 CD in my computer and it
>> ran a scandisk /f on all my drives and killed about a years worth of work
>> and data. I almost frisbeed the CD into a wall but
>
> OUCH!!
>
>> How many windows users even know there is a command line with FTP,
>> IPCONFIG, etc.., available to them?
>

The fact that so many people DON'T NEED TO should say a lot all in itself.

Sorry. I guess I'll be labeled a troll now. I just want an OS that works...
i.e. gets done what I need to do. The less cryptic commands I need to know,
the better. Linux (so far for me) is interesting but it is a PITA to work
with... like taking a step back in time. I've been on computers since the
HP3000 I first used. Then on to VAX. Then on to various home systems
(along with the VAX.) I bought my first PC in '84 or '85. I bought it
because the company was going to go that way eventually and the guys that
knew how to use it were going to keep their jobs. I'm one of those that
appreciates the gui. It's evolved into a natural interface and more time is
spent getting work accomplished than decyphering commands. When push comes
to shove, I can get it done in Linux but typically as an exercise in
perseverence because I've already gotten the job done on another system.
And to top that, when you ask a question about Windows, you get a stinking
answer... not a half dozen geeks telling you to google it or RTFM or some
similar response.

Again, sorry for the outburst. After the week long showering of rebuttals
and namecallings, I'll be back to just reading but something about the
vitriolic venom about hating MS and Bill Gates having the mark of the beast
on his forehead just turns my stomach. It's just an OS. Get over it. If
Windows doesn't do what you want... move on, use something else.

Ed




> IMHO, that may be changing slightly. Seems a lot of the fixes being put
> forth these days, concern at least some commandline operations (at least
> that's what I am seeing in various Windows related newsgroups).
>
>> I think we are stuck with GUI's, but they should be on top of Linux, and
>> not be the operating system like windows. Without graphics we could all
>> be happy with 300 baud modems. That's about 240 words per minute in
>> typing terms, so very adequate for actual text communications.
>
> I remember them rascals.....rather watch paint dry to tell ya the truth!
> :-)
>
>

Ed Edelenbos wrote:
> "propman" wrote in message
> news:xNl%j.318$i74.165@edtnps91...
>> Bill wrote:
>>> Todd wrote:
>>>> "John F. Morse" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hoped OS2 would take off, but I knew, especially when they had to
>>>> sell it as OS2 *for Windows*, that it was doomed.
>> Heh..
>>
>>>>
>>> I had OS/2 working nicely in 1995, along with an early Linux, and DOS
>>> with windows 3.1.
>> Me too.....didn't bother with the Windows side though.
>>
>>> Then I made the mistake of putting a windows 95 CD in my computer and it
>>> ran a scandisk /f on all my drives and killed about a years worth of work
>>> and data. I almost frisbeed the CD into a wall but
>> OUCH!!
>>
>>> How many windows users even know there is a command line with FTP,
>>> IPCONFIG, etc.., available to them?
>
> The fact that so many people DON'T NEED TO should say a lot all in itself.
>
> Sorry. I guess I'll be labeled a troll now. I just want an OS that works...
> i.e. gets done what I need to do. The less cryptic commands I need to know,
> the better. Linux (so far for me) is interesting but it is a PITA to work
> with... like taking a step back in time. I've been on computers since the
> HP3000 I first used. Then on to VAX. Then on to various home systems
> (along with the VAX.) I bought my first PC in '84 or '85. I bought it
> because the company was going to go that way eventually and the guys that
> knew how to use it were going to keep their jobs. I'm one of those that
> appreciates the gui. It's evolved into a natural interface and more time is
> spent getting work accomplished than decyphering commands. When push comes
> to shove, I can get it done in Linux but typically as an exercise in
> perseverence because I've already gotten the job done on another system.
> And to top that, when you ask a question about Windows, you get a stinking
> answer... not a half dozen geeks telling you to google it or RTFM or some
> similar response.

You nailed it. The google it and RTFM's seem to be coming from the snot
nosed crowd who 'think' they know it all. In 10 years or so they will
realize (hopefully) how much they don't know. As for these kinds of
groups I believe the intent was friendly information exchange (??).
Some people can RTFM all week and not trip over the answer that should
be available with some degree of civility on this group. The word
'Mentor' should be explained to these brats.
>
> Again, sorry for the outburst. After the week long showering of rebuttals
> and namecallings, I'll be back to just reading but something about the
> vitriolic venom about hating MS and Bill Gates having the mark of the beast
> on his forehead just turns my stomach. It's just an OS. Get over it. If
> Windows doesn't do what you want... move on, use something else.
>
> Ed
>
>
I don't like the way Bill Gates got the initial DOS contract from IBM in
the first place, and I sure don't like the way he stabbed them in the
back, but that is the way business is run these days. People can be
idealistic (and poor) or shady (and rich), that's just the nature of
people, and I sure don't have a say in nature.

Bill (who can crash even Ubuntu) Baka

John F. Morse wrote:
> I see three possible motives:
>
> 1. The troll, who logically cannot be explained.
>
> 2. The impatient, perhaps busy person, who likes to help, but quickly
> tires of the student's perceived inability to grasp what is offered.
>
> 3. Those who have learned to control the above problems.
>
> I would consider myself somewhere in the 2-3 classification. Just where
> would depend from which side of the bed I arose, the bills I received in
> the mail that day, and all kinds of other calamities. ;-)

I am a fairly easy-going person. I rarely tire of inability.
I can quickly tire of unwillingness, though.

Either way, I figure that whenever someone succeeds in irritating
me, the most productive response is to direct a few keystrokes
at the killfile rather than the source of irritation.

--
Wes Groleau

Words of the Wild Wes(t) = http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW

Dan C illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:22:29 +0000, Moog wrote:
>
>> Is Ubuntu still *too* "brown" and "over-hyped" for you?
>
> It is for me.

Bugger off, Slackware Knuckledragger. ;-)

--
Moog

"The G is for the gnarled face of someone who's on ninety thousand
pounds a week who reckoned he should have had a throw in"

Bill wrote:
>
.... snip ...
>
> You nailed it. The google it and RTFM's seem to be coming from
> the snot nosed crowd who 'think' they know it all. In 10 years or
> so they will realize (hopefully) how much they don't know. As for
> these kinds of groups I believe the intent was friendly
> information exchange (??). Some people can RTFM all week and not
> trip over the answer that should be available with some degree of
> civility on this group. The word 'Mentor' should be explained to
> these brats.

You may not like some peoples manners, but you don't have to listen
to them. Nor do they have to offer any help. It's all purely
voluntary. Someone may be very helpful one day, and off their feed
on the next. Some peoples 'help' is totally worthless, and you
have to learn to tell them apart.

--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]:
Try the download section.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On 2008-05-29, Moog wrote:
> Dan C illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
>> On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:22:29 +0000, Moog wrote:
>>
>>> Is Ubuntu still *too* "brown" and "over-hyped" for you?
>>
>> It is for me.
>
> Bugger off, Slackware Knuckledragger. ;-)

Hey I resemble that :-). But seriously it is a great experience to be
running _both_ slackware and ubuntu. The brown is still not my
favoured colour but it certainly definitively screams 'Ubuntu'! Not
sure what the 'signature' of slackware is, perhaps the tux + pipe?

Andrew
--
Howto: Duplicate Audio CDs using cdrdao
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=795181

Wes Groleau wrote:
> John F. Morse wrote:
>> I see three possible motives:
>>
>> 1. The troll, who logically cannot be explained.
>>
>> 2. The impatient, perhaps busy person, who likes to help, but quickly
>> tires of the student's perceived inability to grasp what is offered.
>>
>> 3. Those who have learned to control the above problems.
>>
>> I would consider myself somewhere in the 2-3 classification. Just
>> where would depend from which side of the bed I arose, the bills I
>> received in the mail that day, and all kinds of other calamities. ;-)
>
> I am a fairly easy-going person. I rarely tire of inability.
> I can quickly tire of unwillingness, though.
>
> Either way, I figure that whenever someone succeeds in irritating
> me, the most productive response is to direct a few keystrokes
> at the killfile rather than the source of irritation.


That may be a solution, but it certainly cuts off any chance to learn
something from the dead.

Even if it is how to NOT post. ;-)

I believe there is SOME good in everybody. How and when to witness it is
the million-dollar question. ;-)


--
John

No Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Novell, Trend Micro, nor Ford products were used in the preparation or transmission of this message.

The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do. The GPL sounds like it was written by a human being, who wants me to know what I can do.

andrew illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
> On 2008-05-29, Moog wrote:
>> Dan C illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
>>> On Tue, 27 May 2008 19:22:29 +0000, Moog wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is Ubuntu still *too* "brown" and "over-hyped" for you?
>>>
>>> It is for me.
>>
>> Bugger off, Slackware Knuckledragger. ;-)
>
> Hey I resemble that :-). But seriously it is a great experience to be
> running _both_ slackware and ubuntu. The brown is still not my
> favoured colour but it certainly definitively screams 'Ubuntu'! Not
> sure what the 'signature' of slackware is, perhaps the tux + pipe?
>
> Andrew

I made a slight error in judgement. I should have used the word
"Slack-droid"
;-)

Anyway, the slackware signature is
-----
../configure
make
make install
-----
Repeat ad nauseum, isn't it?

--
Moog

"The G is for the gnarled face of someone who's on ninety thousand
pounds a week who reckoned he should have had a throw in"

On 2008-05-29, Moog wrote:

> Anyway, the slackware signature is
> -----
> ./configure
> make
> make install
> -----
> Repeat ad nauseum, isn't it?

Well actually it is a little worse than that :-). Good slackware users
write scripts to automate the compile process and create slackware
packages, much along the lines of Debian packages but a lot cleaner
IMHO. I was lucky enough to get my Leafnode 2 script published on
Slackbuilds.org:

http://slackbuilds.org/slackbuilds/1...ode.SlackBuild

But at the same time I published an Ubuntu guide on the same subject:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=676837

In my deliberate effort to have a foot solidly in each camp. I suspect
that some other slackware users are a little less generous with their
time an efforts but I have found that both distros and both
communities have a lot to offer and it is a rare privilege to be able
to contribute and participate in both.

Andrew
--
Howto: Duplicate Audio CDs using cdrdao
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=795181

John F. Morse wrote:
> Wes Groleau wrote:
>> John F. Morse wrote:
>>> I see three possible motives:
>>>
>>> 1. The troll, who logically cannot be explained.
>>>
>>> 2. The impatient, perhaps busy person, who likes to help, but quickly
>>> tires of the student's perceived inability to grasp what is offered.
>>>
>>> 3. Those who have learned to control the above problems.
>>>
>>> I would consider myself somewhere in the 2-3 classification. Just
>>> where would depend from which side of the bed I arose, the bills I
>>> received in the mail that day, and all kinds of other calamities. ;-)
>>
>> I am a fairly easy-going person. I rarely tire of inability.
>> I can quickly tire of unwillingness, though.
>>
>> Either way, I figure that whenever someone succeeds in irritating
>> me, the most productive response is to direct a few keystrokes
>> at the killfile rather than the source of irritation.
>
>
> That may be a solution, but it certainly cuts off any chance to learn
> something from the dead.
>
> Even if it is how to NOT post. ;-)
>
> I believe there is SOME good in everybody. How and when to witness it is
> the million-dollar question. ;-)
>
>
If you read Dan C,'s response to Re:Whoops you will see that he may only
have a few microseconds window or opportunity.
Bill

andrew illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
> On 2008-05-29, Moog wrote:
>
>> Anyway, the slackware signature is
>> -----
>> ./configure
>> make
>> make install
>> -----
>> Repeat ad nauseum, isn't it?
>
> Well actually it is a little worse than that :-). Good slackware users
> write scripts to automate the compile process and create slackware
> packages, much along the lines of Debian packages but a lot cleaner
> IMHO. I was lucky enough to get my Leafnode 2 script published on
> Slackbuilds.org:
>
> http://slackbuilds.org/slackbuilds/1...ode.SlackBuild

Very good, Well done fella.

> But at the same time I published an Ubuntu guide on the same subject:
>
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=676837
>
> In my deliberate effort to have a foot solidly in each camp. I suspect
> that some other slackware users are a little less generous with their
> time an efforts but I have found that both distros and both
> communities have a lot to offer and it is a rare privilege to be able
> to contribute and participate in both.

Yup. I love Ubuntu as it simply gives me a good grounding in all other
things.

I'm also running DesktopBSD and OpenSolaris at present.

I wanted to learn a little about other *nix's.

I feel it makes as much sense to look at those and their structure and
nuances as it does to "get dirty" with Slackware.

And apart from that, I ain't no Slack-droid. OK. ;-)

--
Moog

"The G is for the gnarled face of someone who's on ninety thousand
pounds a week who reckoned he should have had a throw in"

Moog wrote:
> andrew illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
>> On 2008-05-29, Moog wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, the slackware signature is
>>> -----
>>> ./configure
>>> make
>>> make install
>>> -----
>>> Repeat ad nauseum, isn't it?
>> Well actually it is a little worse than that :-). Good slackware users
>> write scripts to automate the compile process and create slackware
>> packages, much along the lines of Debian packages but a lot cleaner
>> IMHO. I was lucky enough to get my Leafnode 2 script published on
>> Slackbuilds.org:
>>
>> http://slackbuilds.org/slackbuilds/1...ode.SlackBuild
>
> Very good, Well done fella.
>
>> But at the same time I published an Ubuntu guide on the same subject:
>>
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=676837
>>
>> In my deliberate effort to have a foot solidly in each camp. I suspect
>> that some other slackware users are a little less generous with their
>> time an efforts but I have found that both distros and both
>> communities have a lot to offer and it is a rare privilege to be able
>> to contribute and participate in both.
>
> Yup. I love Ubuntu as it simply gives me a good grounding in all other
> things.
>
> I'm also running DesktopBSD and OpenSolaris at present.
>
> I wanted to learn a little about other *nix's.
>
> I feel it makes as much sense to look at those and their structure and
> nuances as it does to "get dirty" with Slackware.
>
> And apart from that, I ain't no Slack-droid. OK. ;-)
>
On the script file thing, to me it is Deja-Vu DOS all over again.
For some really big builds we had nested batch files calling out compile
paths and files to link everything. Fun stuff.

An aside for Dan C.
I moved this group to my Ubuntu so I don't have to listen to endless
win-droid snips from him.
Keep on having fun.
Bill Baka

CBFalconer wrote:
> Bill wrote:
> ... snip ...
>> You nailed it. The google it and RTFM's seem to be coming from
>> the snot nosed crowd who 'think' they know it all. In 10 years or
>> so they will realize (hopefully) how much they don't know. As for
>> these kinds of groups I believe the intent was friendly
>> information exchange (??). Some people can RTFM all week and not
>> trip over the answer that should be available with some degree of
>> civility on this group. The word 'Mentor' should be explained to
>> these brats.
>
> You may not like some peoples manners, but you don't have to listen
> to them. Nor do they have to offer any help. It's all purely
> voluntary. Someone may be very helpful one day, and off their feed
> on the next. Some peoples 'help' is totally worthless, and you
> have to learn to tell them apart.
>
Maybe my generation (baby boomer) just has better manners than some of
the kids on here. Anyone under 50 is a kid to me. I try to be civil but
in truth if they got in my face in person,...well, different story.
Gotta run,
Bill Baka

Bill illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

>
>> I'm also running DesktopBSD and OpenSolaris at present.
>>
>> I wanted to learn a little about other *nix's.
>>
>> I feel it makes as much sense to look at those and their structure and
>> nuances as it does to "get dirty" with Slackware.
>>
>> And apart from that, I ain't no Slack-droid. OK. ;-)
>>
> On the script file thing, to me it is Deja-Vu DOS all over again.
> For some really big builds we had nested batch files calling out compile
> paths and files to link everything. Fun stuff.

Scripting is fantastically powerful. It can be far more useful than
using regular gui tools and also give you a great deal of knowledge
about the workings of your machine. I tend to think that's fun....yes.
But there are different stroke for different folks.

--
Moog

"The G is for the gnarled face of someone who's on ninety thousand
pounds a week who reckoned he should have had a throw in"